Negative people please read!

30REBORNFAN said:
I don't understand. Who are the 'paying customers' you speak of?
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The paying customers are the casual players and get exactly what they want (maybe I misspoke above). They want a fun atmosphere at pool halls or bars- food, drink, and amateur pool leagues. They pay the bills for a room owner.

They could care less about a professional pool league, full of selfish professional players, that formed a league that include one pocket and straight pool!?? Really?
Go to your local pool room and tell me how many "league players" are playing either of those games.
 
TheKman said:
The paying customers are the casual players and get exactly what they want (maybe I misspoke above). They want a fun atmosphere at pool halls or bars- food, drink, and amateur pool leagues. They pay the bills for a room owner.

They could care less about a professional pool league, full of selfish professional players, that formed a league that include one pocket and straight pool!?? Really?
Go to your local pool room and tell me how many "league players" are playing either of those games.
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Not many. But I'm a casual player, I pay my local's bills whilst enjoying the fun traditional games and yet I think Bonus Ball is awesome so you do not speak for the 'masses'. You say that I should have what I want and that it ain't Bonus Ball. BUT IT IS!
 
TheKman said:
Boy do you view pool through rose colored glasses. Is your point, you want us to give bonus ball a chance?? I'm confused.
I'll say this though: 00001% of US population know who Shane Van Boening is, maybe less.
At free online streamed tournaments, you have Alvin proudly saying "we now have over 100 people watching this match LIVE!" 100 people! You may get a few hundred for a finals match.

People don't care about pool. That's why you haven't seen it on tv in nearly 20 years.
Heck, people don't watch baseball anymore. Why? It's boring!
Baseball is boring to watch on tv, and so is pool. Especially when you have players who have no personality whatsoever. Watching Mike Sigel vs Earl was entertainment! Shane vs Corey, not so much.

I don't have the answers. Bonus Ball isn't entertaining to me, a serious pool player. How are you supposed to reach the masses. You can't.
Bonus Ball Bye Bye
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I know longer play and probably had little to offer in the way of advice even when I did. But the subject of why pool isn't popular on tv has always intrigued me. I have several theories, one of which you covered in your post - the personality, or lack thereof, of the players.

I don't believe you can fake it. I'm not for going out and getting guys with over-sized personalities at the expense of overlooking the better players. I'm just saying I agree the sports in which viewers have some sort of emotional connection to the players tend to do well. Also, some sports are simply made for tv, or are greatly aided by it. Football is one. I love it and look forward to it each year. But am I a real football fan? I'd have to say no because I've never been to a college or highschool game, and there are plenty in my area. I am a pro football TV fan. The slo-mo, the replays, time between plays for the fans at home and in the stands to discuss among each other what's going to happen next - the yellow graphic first down marker and the graphics on the screen - take away all those TV luxuries and the NFL goes POOF! My opinion.

Back when they first started putting pool on tv I thought it was going to go over. It did ok for a while but has faded. I often wondered why. I say there may be a hundred different reasons, but chief among them is a lack of emotional connection to the players and also the fact that tv cameras for some reason cannot or have not been able to show just how tough some of the shots are. The run outs are so common to the top players - they make it look so easy - that the average fan isn't wowed by even the greatest shot or run out.

Slightly off topic but another issue I've considered is the game of nine ball itself. I can't see straight pool going over on tv, yet let's face it, it is the best game for determining the definitive champion. I'm not saying it's a better game. In fact, nine ball might take more pure shooting talent. I'm saying it's a better game for determining who the best is. Just as golf is formatted to produce the best player. There may be some talk about Woods' decline lately, but let's be honest, the game of golf produced a definitive champion in Woods, unlike nine ball where no matter how good a player is, it can always be argued that so and so is as good or better. Pool lacks the King of The Hill aspect of other sports. But in the end, if it doesn't go over on TV, so what? If you love the game and play it, who says TV owes it anything? It's an interesting discussion, why pool is not popular on tv.

TJ
 
I have a ton of great information that I will post tomorrow am via all of the comments and ideas from this thread. Thank you to all who have given your true feelings. ( I will post IMO the answers that I believe will gather some attention)

P.S. I am out with the family stay tuned for the post in the AM
 
The forum exists for people to give opinions.
Trying to ask people not to give their opinions, is like asking someone in an elevator to not press
any of the buttons.

To make people stop voicing negative opinions, you have to change their their
opinion from negative to positive. So what are you saying that is supposed to win over people's
hearts and minds? "Come on, stop being such negative nellies!" is not real convincing :/
 
Ok, so much to go over in just a short time. First off I wanted everyone to recognize that everyone is a lot more positive than I though for a "Negative people please read" Thread....

In life we all have to make tough decisions and in business you can multiply that by thousands, when you make decisions based on you and your family it's nothing like when you make decisions for another person or even worse groups of peoples families.

Here we go,
I am by all means not saying that the WPBL league is the best thing that's ever happened to pool I am just stating that the average pool player that gets that spark related to pool loves team play with the opportunity to make the big stage. The BIG STAGE doesn't have to be ESPN, it could be as simple as having the opportunity to play on a live stream match. Although some of you will say " I could care less" think about it- it's an individual sport from the beginning and then later for most people become that team sport.
Pool is in what I like to call the GOSSIP industry so you got to give to Mike Howerton for starting these forums. Most pool rooms serve alcohol and this is the only way they can pay there bills. If you have an individual tournament or an individual league then I can tell you from experience that they don't spend any money. I can also tell you that its completely the opposite for Team League Play, a bar with a team league is there to win however it's proven that they will loosen up and Eat, Drink and spend money that is normally not spent in the individual atmosphere/competition.
Ok so what does this have to do with promoting our industry through other companies such as the WPBL. We have more opportunity to draw bigger crowds and also drawing more people that could possibly get interested via the , DRAMA , REALITY and UPs and Downs of being one of the top pros in our industry. The WPBL has sparked the interest in a ton of people already whether it be positive or negative these threads are getting tons of attention.
Please tell me some things maybe I don't know? I understand that some business's don't make the proper or best decisions when they start up and once I again I can tell you from experience I am guilty. You get emotionally involved and you think the faster we get open the faster that you will make $$$... However every business is faced with setbacks, some minor and some major. Meanwhile it's real easy to overlook some things that you don't think will come up which I am sure that the WPBL will overcome.

Here's some fun facts- THE APA collects 10-12 dollars a night to play league per person, The league operator is making a couple of dollars a head. The rest is sent in. Out of all of the supposed money that they take in how much is actually paid out.
The BCA does the same maybe a little different seeing that the only thing you have to do is qualify by playing a 8 weeks I think and pay an entry fee follow by many dollar tokens to pay for each game being played. These companies are very successful in our industry.
Obviously there are thousands and thousands in the APA as they have been around for a minute. The BCA is a little less due to the fact that it caters to the better player.

The WPBL is going to have a league and end of year tournaments, some say it will be televised and or streamed to the normal viewing audience. This is quite intriguing as team play is very seldom streamed. Also I will guess that they will have operators and promoters Etc... But none of this will ever happen if pool supporters/enthusiast don't give it a chance.

Put all of that BS about who is getting what money aside and promote pool. If you want to spend your money on the APA spend it,,, BCA spend it- or some other league such as the WPBL spend your money where your comfortable because I know I will.

I love pool, promoting pool, watching pool, although there are several things I have seen or even possibly done that wasn't to everyone's liking.

IF watching Jeremy and Earl duke it out or Scott Frost yelling at Manny to make the shot his way then I am definitely going to watch it. Not all of us are blessed to be able play along side or see a pro play in our local pool room and some people take this for granted.

Whether it's the WPBL or any other game as a pool enthusiast I know I am going to support the chance of seeing another business succeed in our industry.
 
TheWeez said:
The WPBL is going to have a league and end of year tournaments, some say it will be televised and or streamed to the normal viewing audience. This is quite intriguing as team play is very seldom streamed. Also I will guess that they will have operators and promoters Etc... But none of this will ever happen if pool supporters/enthusiast don't give it a chance.

Not all of us are blessed to be able play along side or see a pro play in our local pool room and some people take this for granted.
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I'd cringe at the advertising of, "Give us a chance, we're not what you normally have". That's all I keep hearing about the game. Sorry, that won't get my business no matter wtf it is.

Many have "pros" in their area.. know how often they show up to market themselves at league night/events? I'd guess somewhere around almost never and never. They're the key to their own future.. which, I guess, says it all.

I have no problem "supporting" a business when they have a product that I'm interested in. It's called capitalism.. if you want to make money, people have to want to buy it. I don't want to buy Bonus Ball. Maybe I would've been interested in a national league system with pros, but I really don't want to watch some weird game that I'll never play with friends. Looking forward to that new ABCL, though.
 
Banks said:
I'd cringe at the advertising of, "Give us a chance, we're not what you normally have". That's all I keep hearing about the game. Sorry, that won't get my business no matter wtf it is.

Many have "pros" in their area.. know how often they show up to market themselves at league night/events? I'd guess somewhere around almost never and never. They're the key to their own future.. which, I guess, says it all.

I have no problem "supporting" a business when they have a product that I'm interested in. It's called capitalism.. if you want to make money, people have to want to buy it. I don't want to buy Bonus Ball. Maybe I would've been interested in a national league system with pros, but I really don't want to watch some weird game that I'll never play with friends. Looking forward to that new ABCL, though.
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I too am looking forward to ABCL, but you know they're playing 15-ball rotation? For 99.9% of American pool players, or more, that's also a new game.
 
I'm still trying to understand what your point is?? Pool is in the "gossip industry"? What does that even mean, makes no sense.
So you want people to support WPBL? How? it's already been shut down weeks into season 1. Why would people come back when/if it returns? They've already been duped. It hasn't caught on or you would see more than 2000 views on their free YouTube streams.
It's not my responsibility to make a pro tour work. You want me to "promote pool"?? Not going to happen, I have my own life and crap to deal with.
 
Scott Lee said:
While you're technically right, people have been playing rotation games like 9 & 10 ball for decades...so the masses already know something about them.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
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It's not a big leap from numerical order to color-based order (purple-orange-black) or from 1 pocket to 3 pockets. So I just don't see BB as uniquely mysterious or inscrutable.

For example (I had to look it up), 15-ball has each ball worth its face value--complicated scoring, a naysayer would say. There's also no ball-in-hand in 15-ball. If you only play modern 9 and 10 ball, the foul rule in 15-ball is going to seem as odd as, say, the continuation shot in BB.
 
My friends an I have been playing 15 ball rotation for a few years now. Theres usually five of us all playing..its fun..I never really liked cut throat.

I'd watch more full rack rotation then nine ball...but I also enjoy watching str. pool an one pocket too. I'd probably watch golf as well..I thought BB was a fun looking game to play...just not at the pro level. But my opinion doesn't matter on pool issues one way or another. I will always have some one to play pool with..an that what I think most of America thinks too..those that aren't envolved in playing for a living..I think some people wonder why pool isn't on television..an most are not willing to pay for a strean when they already pay for cable an the internet..then factor in smart phones..kimd of got on a roll..

15 ball rotation is a good game..
 
TheWeez said:
we all get into the forums to find out the latest gossip and see what's going on in pool. However for the most part everything you read is always negative. Of course there are some positives but most people want to see things fail.
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I kinda stopped reading right there. I don't think everything on this forum is negative. I also don't think it's a bad thing for people to point out what they don't like about something. Some folks here like the bonus ball and some don't...so what. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion about it.

I haven't got into the whole BB thing but it sounds like they have had their chance and it didn't go so well.
 
Cdryden said:
I haven't got into the whole BB thing but it sounds like they have had their chance and it didn't go so well.
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Yeah, I also declined to post input on that since it seems hard to separate fact/vs fiction on some posts. I will just keep my offer out there being for hire to help with the business plan :D
 
you make many valid points

TheWeez said:
Thank you I will try and make sure not tell what people should do. That is not what this thread was intended for.

Seeing is believing...and I do understand that.!!!

I am a decent player, I like action and I still love to watch the pros. Honestly I could care less what game they are playing. If Bonus Ball is going to give them the shot then I am going to watch, support and promote in the most positive way that I can.

Who really gives a shit about me and I don't expect you to like (my opinion) but face it more pool , more sponsors, stricter guidelines = positives for our industry!

WPBL is basically reality T.V. It's entertaining and a slight opportunity to gain motivation forward in pool.

Where else are the players going to get paid... THE U.S. OPEN LOL(real positive for our sport)
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I believe you make many valid points. The fine line is in the business aspects and how they have been handled. There's no "business model" or organized element of pool that can bring it synergistically together.

Therefore there's a lot of random entities doing business as best they can, but not necessarily in the long term game's interest. That's understandable, I'm not judging it's beyond my pay scale. ;) 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
scratchs said:
good point...I spoke with my room owner a while back about pro's playing in his room..his comment was..it costs him money..there was a time he held a few tournament with pros..but Salem, Ore has nothing really to offer .
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Yeah, all Jim offers is a great place to play on well maintained classic Brunswicks. ;)
I couldn't care less if any pros are about.

For the record, I don't consider the above a "negative" statement..:)
 
pwd72s said:
Yeah, all Jim offers is a great place to play on well maintained classic Brunswicks. ;)
I couldn't care less if any pros are about.

For the record, I don't consider the above a "negative" statement..:)
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Yes...The Cue Ball is a nice pool hall..I like the fact theres no booze sold there ; or smokeing inside..I didn't mean my post to seem negative..an didn't take your pro statement as negative either.:wink:
 
Scott Lee said:
While you're technically right, people have been playing rotation games like 9 & 10 ball for decades...so the masses already know something about them.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
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9 Ball is a much more exciting game to watch, and has been popular much longer than 10 ball. I guess it depends on which masses you speak of as well. But in general people I ask know 9 ball and not many at all know 10 ball. I actually do not even see 10 ball as popular except among the pool world regulars. Some pros may like 10 ball over 9 ball, as it (9 ball) narrows the gap ever so slightly amongst players, due to a little more of the luck factor, the breaks etc...

But as I believe, what the pros like, and what "paying" viewers would like is sometimes two different things.
Viewers like colorful players, interacting with the crowds, exciting run outs, while many of todays pro players act like robots, playing safeties until they feel 99% they can make the ball, no talking/interaction, etc... Pool needs a LOT more Fats, McCready, Sigel, Strickland (the Strickland of old) type players that interact.
If billiards is ever going to regain popularity, it will need to pay attention to the possible "paying" viewers much more, especially in the U.S., where there is 1000s of different activities competing against one another for people's time and of course MONEY.
 
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