I don't think a move away from 9 ball is necessary. Simply fix the problems with it. People are saying play 10 ball with call pocket and call safeties. I would say that you do not need an extra ball to do that. Simply play the same rules with 9 ball. I hate slop tules in any game, especially on the 9 ball. However, 9 ball is hard enough for the average player. If you make the standard something that is even harder to have fun at, then even less people will want to play.
Never playing 9-ball again!!!
- Thread starter TimKrazyMon
- Start date
That's also because you don't play it enough.
pj
chgo
I have to disagree...
Yes, playing on a 9 ft. with flat cut pockets would allow familiarity, but the ease of making balls negates the joy of learning the "real" game of snooker.
After a 35 yr. absence, I have returned to the game and I have to say, the rare occasions that I am threatening the "century" mark give me far more enjoyment than running a 6 pack in 9 ball on 9 footers ever did.
It took quite awhile to get back my snooker stroke. Re-learning strategy. No more BHE, much less "spinning whitey" around to get position. A good stroke or the ball has little chance of going in. Much more attention required to keep breaks going. It's just awesome. I am fortunate, however, to have a few highly skilled snooker players around (regularly run centuries) to use as a resource to re-learn the game.
Play it right... or don't play it at all.
Yes, playing on a 9 ft. with flat cut pockets would allow familiarity, but the ease of making balls negates the joy of learning the "real" game of snooker.
After a 35 yr. absence, I have returned to the game and I have to say, the rare occasions that I am threatening the "century" mark give me far more enjoyment than running a 6 pack in 9 ball on 9 footers ever did.
It took quite awhile to get back my snooker stroke. Re-learning strategy. No more BHE, much less "spinning whitey" around to get position. A good stroke or the ball has little chance of going in. Much more attention required to keep breaks going. It's just awesome. I am fortunate, however, to have a few highly skilled snooker players around (regularly run centuries) to use as a resource to re-learn the game.
Play it right... or don't play it at all.
nope. i'm pretty sure it's because i hate the game. in fact i'm sure of it. i'm fond of telling people i am going to hell all the time and i am now sure that when i get there not only will i have my ten acres on the river styx i will have a beautiful table but only be able to play one pocket on it.:yikes:
I have to disagree with those that perceive there to be a lot of luck in straight pool. There is a randomness to all pool games. Perhaps a little more in straight pool because of the greater need to move balls around. But honestly, the ability to move balls around in straight pool is not so much luck as it may seem. Played at the higher levels this is not so much fortune as a test of the skill of one's imagination. The top straight pool players have a pretty good idea of where the balls are going and are usually intending to control that movement. Yes, it is an inexact science but it is a skill nonetheless.
As far as scratching on a break shot goes, that is no different from the break in 9/10 ball. It largely is a matter of controlling the snow ball. True, you may encounter an unfortunate kiss but that is the same for all pool games.
As far as hitting a good shot and being left with nothing goes, that happens far more in rotation games than in straight pool because you only have one ball to go for and often get an unfortunate hook (this is especially true off a break shot). In straight pool it happens much more often that when you don't get rewarded for a good shot involving breaking up a cluster, that rather than no shot you are left with at least some thing, maybe even something quite difficult. But to me that is where skill comes in, being left with next to nothing and coming with a great shot to keep the run alive.
I was just watching a video of Engert running 99 balls in a tournament. Some guys think the pros make running a hundred balls look easy but if you really watch it is not. Engert came up with some fabulous shots. During the course of a decent run you HAVE to come with a very good shot now and again because you are not always left with much. So to me that adds to the skill and not the luck involved in playing 14.1.
As far as 9 vs. 10 ball goes, I prefer 10 ball. But frankly, I predict that as far as 10 ball replacing 9 ball as the major professional tournament game goes, like it or not it will probably be Texas Express 10 Ball. I'm not saying I agree with this, but I just think that is the way it will unfold. At least it is not so susceptible to the soft break. But then again there are always ways to legislate the soft break out of 9 Ball (break box, three balls carry past the head string etc.).
As far as scratching on a break shot goes, that is no different from the break in 9/10 ball. It largely is a matter of controlling the snow ball. True, you may encounter an unfortunate kiss but that is the same for all pool games.
As far as hitting a good shot and being left with nothing goes, that happens far more in rotation games than in straight pool because you only have one ball to go for and often get an unfortunate hook (this is especially true off a break shot). In straight pool it happens much more often that when you don't get rewarded for a good shot involving breaking up a cluster, that rather than no shot you are left with at least some thing, maybe even something quite difficult. But to me that is where skill comes in, being left with next to nothing and coming with a great shot to keep the run alive.
I was just watching a video of Engert running 99 balls in a tournament. Some guys think the pros make running a hundred balls look easy but if you really watch it is not. Engert came up with some fabulous shots. During the course of a decent run you HAVE to come with a very good shot now and again because you are not always left with much. So to me that adds to the skill and not the luck involved in playing 14.1.
As far as 9 vs. 10 ball goes, I prefer 10 ball. But frankly, I predict that as far as 10 ball replacing 9 ball as the major professional tournament game goes, like it or not it will probably be Texas Express 10 Ball. I'm not saying I agree with this, but I just think that is the way it will unfold. At least it is not so susceptible to the soft break. But then again there are always ways to legislate the soft break out of 9 Ball (break box, three balls carry past the head string etc.).
This is by far the truest statement around.
Anyone, and i do mean anyone can poop their way to torturing any pool player on the planet, making a good match of it, and potentially winning in 9 ball and 10 ball.
ANYONE!
When you take the luck that out of the game, all that is left is skill, with the exception of making a ball on the break, but being hooked on the first shot.
Heck, even back in the day when you had to play "push out 2 foul ball in hand", that was WAY more skillful then today's game, and the better player won the majority of the time.
Some thoughts on luck
This thread got me thinking a bit. As has already been said, "luck" is a part of every game/ sport/ event. Watch any major sporting event.
I also think that "luck" gets far too much credit most of the time!
Another poster already said it, but I will repeat it. If you are playing and you play a bad postion is that "lucky" for your opponent? If you slam that ball and it goes 3 rails, is that lucky for you? Now you are breaking the next game and you scratch on the break leaving a ball in hand hanging 9 ball combo- is it lucky that you made the last 9 ball to get the break and give up this one, or was it lucky for you that you played bas postion last game? I mean you could go on and on with this, where does it end?
The bottom line is that it will go both ways, and reward/punish both players. I look at it kinda like black Jack. Some hands you are gonna win no matter what, some hands you are gonna lose no matter what- skill comes into play on all the other hands!
If you were to REALLY observe a match objectively, you can see that the outcome is influenced by luck MUCH less than you may think.
Also the players response to perceived luck is more important than the actual event. Many players are just looking for an excuse to lose and that gives them an opportunity to get themselves off the hook. Now 3 games later they are still reacting to a lucky 9 ball, and they have lost their focus and are swinging wildly. This is not luck. You are not getting good results because you are not focused and relaxed.
If you really understand the strategy, and the dynamics of momentum, etc. you will see that there are clear cause and effects going on.
Sure it does not feel great when you run the table, and a guy takes a wild swing at the 9 making it off 4 rails in the side pocket at an impossible angle, BUT was it lucky that he made that shot? Or was it due to your lack of focus or an error that you gave him the opportunity in the first place?
All this reminds me a statement many years ago. A guy who I had never played before was trying to match up with me, so he asked another guy who I had played before how I played. I will never forget the answer- "Well, he is okay, AS LONG AS HE KEEPS GETTING ALL THOSE EASY SHOTS". He was dead serious! He really believed that it was just amazing luck that I would happen to have one easy shot after another. It clearly had nothing to do with planning and execution!:grin:
Okay, I am done ranting for now!
Try not to give luck too much credit for your losses, unless you want to give it more credit for all your wins!
Jw
This thread got me thinking a bit. As has already been said, "luck" is a part of every game/ sport/ event. Watch any major sporting event.
I also think that "luck" gets far too much credit most of the time!
Another poster already said it, but I will repeat it. If you are playing and you play a bad postion is that "lucky" for your opponent? If you slam that ball and it goes 3 rails, is that lucky for you? Now you are breaking the next game and you scratch on the break leaving a ball in hand hanging 9 ball combo- is it lucky that you made the last 9 ball to get the break and give up this one, or was it lucky for you that you played bas postion last game? I mean you could go on and on with this, where does it end?
The bottom line is that it will go both ways, and reward/punish both players. I look at it kinda like black Jack. Some hands you are gonna win no matter what, some hands you are gonna lose no matter what- skill comes into play on all the other hands!
If you were to REALLY observe a match objectively, you can see that the outcome is influenced by luck MUCH less than you may think.
Also the players response to perceived luck is more important than the actual event. Many players are just looking for an excuse to lose and that gives them an opportunity to get themselves off the hook. Now 3 games later they are still reacting to a lucky 9 ball, and they have lost their focus and are swinging wildly. This is not luck. You are not getting good results because you are not focused and relaxed.
If you really understand the strategy, and the dynamics of momentum, etc. you will see that there are clear cause and effects going on.
Sure it does not feel great when you run the table, and a guy takes a wild swing at the 9 making it off 4 rails in the side pocket at an impossible angle, BUT was it lucky that he made that shot? Or was it due to your lack of focus or an error that you gave him the opportunity in the first place?
All this reminds me a statement many years ago. A guy who I had never played before was trying to match up with me, so he asked another guy who I had played before how I played. I will never forget the answer- "Well, he is okay, AS LONG AS HE KEEPS GETTING ALL THOSE EASY SHOTS". He was dead serious! He really believed that it was just amazing luck that I would happen to have one easy shot after another. It clearly had nothing to do with planning and execution!:grin:
Okay, I am done ranting for now!
Try not to give luck too much credit for your losses, unless you want to give it more credit for all your wins!
Jw
Same here. I hate this game with a passion. It's not as if I can't beat most players in my neck of the woods at it, it's just that, when my opponent breaks and sinks the 9, or plays like crap and sinks the 9, or some other lucky instant game-over shot, and looks up with that stupid grin on his face, I feel cheated of my efforts trying to get better at the game.
On the other hand, if the guy runs out cleanly, then I'm interested. But as soon as that 9 goes in by chance (either by me or my opponent), I feel the rage come back. Why, if you played, say, tennis and had the option of winning the set instantly if you hit a certain spot painted on the back wall behind your opponent, would you feel it's a fair sport? Of course not...
I'd rather be beaten flat at any cue game on skills alone than win any 9-ball game on luck. Matter of fact, my usual straight pool partner feels the same way, and we usually play what we call "full call straight pool": we have to describe the shot we're about to make completely, from start to finish, including rails and everything. If the shot isn't made as described, the inning ends. The only leeway we leave ourselves is in the exact number of rails the cueball contacts: if the cueball makes + or - 1 rail, we call the shot good. This is to account for when the cueball should end up near a rail, but contacts it or not when it dies there.
If you don't like lucky shots, you should try our variant of straight pool: I've yet to see a lucky shot made with those rules
I don't know about everyone else, but I'm really frickin' tired of 9-ball. Rack your own, pattern runout, blah blah. This game can't be fixed IMHO, it's boring as hell and I no longer wish to play a game where luck decides more games than skill. I'm done with 9-ball & I encourage more people to do the same.
Glad to hear it Tim, my boy. It's high time you started playing one pocket.
This thread got me thinking a bit. As has already been said, "luck" is a part of every game/ sport/ event. Watch any major sporting event.
I also think that "luck" gets far too much credit most of the time!
Another poster already said it, but I will repeat it. If you are playing and you play a bad postion is that "lucky" for your opponent? If you slam that ball and it goes 3 rails, is that lucky for you? Now you are breaking the next game and you scratch on the break leaving a ball in hand hanging 9 ball combo- is it lucky that you made the last 9 ball to get the break and give up this one, or was it lucky for you that you played bas postion last game? I mean you could go on and on with this, where does it end?
The bottom line is that it will go both ways, and reward/punish both players. I look at it kinda like black Jack. Some hands you are gonna win no matter what, some hands you are gonna lose no matter what- skill comes into play on all the other hands!
If you were to REALLY observe a match objectively, you can see that the outcome is influenced by luck MUCH less than you may think.
Also the players response to perceived luck is more important than the actual event. Many players are just looking for an excuse to lose and that gives them an opportunity to get themselves off the hook. Now 3 games later they are still reacting to a lucky 9 ball, and they have lost their focus and are swinging wildly. This is not luck. You are not getting good results because you are not focused and relaxed.
If you really understand the strategy, and the dynamics of momentum, etc. you will see that there are clear cause and effects going on.
Sure it does not feel great when you run the table, and a guy takes a wild swing at the 9 making it off 4 rails in the side pocket at an impossible angle, BUT was it lucky that he made that shot? Or was it due to your lack of focus or an error that you gave him the opportunity in the first place?
All this reminds me a statement many years ago. A guy who I had never played before was trying to match up with me, so he asked another guy who I had played before how I played. I will never forget the answer- "Well, he is okay, AS LONG AS HE KEEPS GETTING ALL THOSE EASY SHOTS". He was dead serious! He really believed that it was just amazing luck that I would happen to have one easy shot after another. It clearly had nothing to do with planning and execution!:grin:
Okay, I am done ranting for now!
Try not to give luck too much credit for your losses, unless you want to give it more credit for all your wins!
Jw
Unfortunately, luck can have a strong influence in short races with good players. When playing a strong player, they may only make a few mistakes in an entire match. If 25-50% of those mistakes end up with fortunate leaves or lucked in balls, then it can really swing things one way.
Some luck is part of every game their is. Bloopers that drop in during baseball games vs line drives right at someone, fumbles that bounce right back to the fumbler, bank shot 3 pointers in basketball etc, etc. We will always have to deal with those things in sport, and the true champions work hard and find ways to overcome them. However, while I love the game of 9 ball, I see no reason not to control the luck factor as much as possible. Slopped in shots (especially the nine) have no place in a game that otherwise requires so much precision. I see no reason to stop playig 9 ball, but would love to see rule changes that remove luck as much as possible.
Try playing rotation (1-15), that is a consecutive ball requirement type game, but unlike 9-Ball, a count of 61 or better is required to win, not just one ball.
By including a "call pocket" option for all shots, adds to the skill level. You can even remove carom pocketed balls not called.
Even 10 ball is a "single ball" game winner. If you are in a hurry to win or lose, keep playing these games that lean that way.
Play lots of games to learn & understand their varying idiosyncrasies for winning.
Good Luck..
By including a "call pocket" option for all shots, adds to the skill level. You can even remove carom pocketed balls not called.
Even 10 ball is a "single ball" game winner. If you are in a hurry to win or lose, keep playing these games that lean that way.
Play lots of games to learn & understand their varying idiosyncrasies for winning.
Good Luck..
If watching Reyes play one pocket is like watching paint dry, im selling my landscape bis and taking up painting TOMARROW.
There is no reason any pocket billiard game is played slop counts nor should a player be punished for anothers bad play, rolling out should be a choice.
The luck in pocket billiards hurts the game more than most can, will, do admit
There is no reason any pocket billiard game is played slop counts nor should a player be punished for anothers bad play, rolling out should be a choice.
The luck in pocket billiards hurts the game more than most can, will, do admit
no way
Just so everyone one knows he does not run 25% of his racks even on a good day. Most pros don't even do that. But what do I know maybe I'm wrong. Tim I'll take the eight and try you some or hell I might even try and play you even but I'm not gonna like my side.
Just so everyone one knows he does not run 25% of his racks even on a good day. Most pros don't even do that. But what do I know maybe I'm wrong. Tim I'll take the eight and try you some or hell I might even try and play you even but I'm not gonna like my side.
I just love 9 ball
I find 9 ball is very much like life itself. Does not matter if you do all preparation work, but you have to finish the job. Luck is a factor in life itself. You can't be unlucky all the time. Like life, nothing is fair. Sh*t happens. Just learn to deal with it.That is why i love 9 ball.
Go on . Flame away....
I find 9 ball is very much like life itself. Does not matter if you do all preparation work, but you have to finish the job. Luck is a factor in life itself. You can't be unlucky all the time. Like life, nothing is fair. Sh*t happens. Just learn to deal with it.That is why i love 9 ball.
Go on . Flame away....
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love /hate
My 3rd post on this thread. If you're a winner in a game you don't quit. You only quit if you can't win and don't want to work harder to become a winner.
I can't say that I'm a winner but I don't hate any game because I can't win.
I try hard to learn how to win. People make fun of me because I try hard and lose a lot. But tomorrow or the next day , I'll beat them. Then I'll get bored playing with them and look for somebody that can beat me.( That's never difficult) But IMHO you cannot get bored with the GAME. And you cannot hate the GAME. You cannot change the GAME. You can only be bored with or hate the way you play the Game. The options then are to quit, as you did, or to work to improve your relationship to the Game. Don't go in search of a Game that fits you. Try to master the one that you hate the most.
Does anybody understand that? :shrug:
My 3rd post on this thread. If you're a winner in a game you don't quit. You only quit if you can't win and don't want to work harder to become a winner.
I can't say that I'm a winner but I don't hate any game because I can't win.
I try hard to learn how to win. People make fun of me because I try hard and lose a lot. But tomorrow or the next day , I'll beat them. Then I'll get bored playing with them and look for somebody that can beat me.( That's never difficult) But IMHO you cannot get bored with the GAME. And you cannot hate the GAME. You cannot change the GAME. You can only be bored with or hate the way you play the Game. The options then are to quit, as you did, or to work to improve your relationship to the Game. Don't go in search of a Game that fits you. Try to master the one that you hate the most.
Does anybody understand that? :shrug:
I like your style 12310bch. The answer to anything is not giving up and walking away. I used to struggle with certain shots. I ran away from them and hoped they would go away. They coming up staring me right in the face. I worked on them and rarely miss them now.
It's not the game that's the problem, It's you.
It's not the game that's the problem, It's you.
i don't see how any pool game can be decided on luck? Makes no sense whatsoever.
Let me explain.
The pool table is a closed system of physics, the outcome of a stroke is determined by the various factors that you calculate in your shot (velocity, spin, etc.)... you are in control of what you do with your pool cue. All outcomes are predictable and all outcomes are pre-determined once the cueball has left contact with the cue tip.
Now there is the issue that you may not understand what the outcome will be given your selection of inputs. You may not be in control of your body and your stroke as well as you would like either.
in regards to your opponent and their "luck" is merely a state of perception from your end. Your opponent is who they are, they do not affect how you play. The opponent may not have adequate cue ball control either, and the input of shot may result in an early 9-ball... but that is not luck, that is exactly what was determined to happen as soon as your opponent struck the cue ball. He may have had no idea that it was going to happen, but that does not make it luck.
The idea of luck is created in a players head to help them cope with the fact that they were not good enough to win that day and to cope with intentional or unintentional success by their opponent.
Earl Strickland won more US Opens than anyone... was that luck? Luck has precisely nothing to do with playing any of the cue sports. The only type of luck I could think of would be a random shifting of the table do to seismic activity or something falling from the ceiling and affecting the play of the table. Anything that is a result of a striking of the cue ball with the cue cannot be considered luck.
Let me explain.
The pool table is a closed system of physics, the outcome of a stroke is determined by the various factors that you calculate in your shot (velocity, spin, etc.)... you are in control of what you do with your pool cue. All outcomes are predictable and all outcomes are pre-determined once the cueball has left contact with the cue tip.
Now there is the issue that you may not understand what the outcome will be given your selection of inputs. You may not be in control of your body and your stroke as well as you would like either.
in regards to your opponent and their "luck" is merely a state of perception from your end. Your opponent is who they are, they do not affect how you play. The opponent may not have adequate cue ball control either, and the input of shot may result in an early 9-ball... but that is not luck, that is exactly what was determined to happen as soon as your opponent struck the cue ball. He may have had no idea that it was going to happen, but that does not make it luck.
The idea of luck is created in a players head to help them cope with the fact that they were not good enough to win that day and to cope with intentional or unintentional success by their opponent.
Earl Strickland won more US Opens than anyone... was that luck? Luck has precisely nothing to do with playing any of the cue sports. The only type of luck I could think of would be a random shifting of the table do to seismic activity or something falling from the ceiling and affecting the play of the table. Anything that is a result of a striking of the cue ball with the cue cannot be considered luck.
Careful with the "look in the mirror, it's your fault you hate 9-ball" stereotypes
I like your attitude, 12310bch, but I respectfully disagree with the notion (or even the hint) that a person's fault for "hating" a game is him/herself. It's almost like you're saying, like a lot of 9-ball fans, that it's one's own fault that he/she dislikes the game of 9-ball. What appeals to you, may not appeal to me. For example, I may like marathon running, but you may not. But I will be absolutely wrong to say "it's your fault" that you don't like marathon running, because "you need to change your relationship to marathon running."
Personally, I play 9-ball in a pinch, and I believe I have a decent game. (I snapped-off the Greenfields end-of-year Open 9-ball tournament in Denver, Colorado this past December -- using a house cue, because I didn't have my cues with me and entered the tournament on an "oh, what the hell?" whim. And, I'll be playing in this weekend's Predator 9-ball Tour at Raxx Billiards in West Hempstead, Long Island, this weekend as well.) Does that mean I "like" the game of 9-ball? No. I much prefer straight pool, One Pocket, 10-ball, or gosh, even 8-ball over 9-ball. But I'll suck it up and play 9-ball, because for some areas, it's the only money-/tourney-thing around. Do I have a right to dislike the game of 9-ball? You betcha. But I won't whine and complain while I'm playing 9-ball -- I'll just give you my very best game, make a good go of it, and try to have some fun in the process. When playing me, you'll never know I dislike 9-ball, because I'll compliment you on a nice shot / safety, and in general be a cordial/courteous (but strong!) competitor.
Summary: I vehemently disagree with the 9-ball zealots on this thread/forum that seem to think that it's the player's fault he/she doesn't like the game of 9-ball. While some people's minds are wired to need a pattern dictated to them by the numbering of the balls, others have brains wired with pattern creativity and prefer a game that leverages this creativity. While it may be true that some b*tch and whine about a particular game because he/she may've lost money in a bad set, or didn't have a good showing in a tournament, that is absolutely NOT a bucket statement that should be applied with a broad brush across all people.
Respectfully,
-Sean
I like your attitude, 12310bch, but I respectfully disagree with the notion (or even the hint) that a person's fault for "hating" a game is him/herself. It's almost like you're saying, like a lot of 9-ball fans, that it's one's own fault that he/she dislikes the game of 9-ball. What appeals to you, may not appeal to me. For example, I may like marathon running, but you may not. But I will be absolutely wrong to say "it's your fault" that you don't like marathon running, because "you need to change your relationship to marathon running."
Personally, I play 9-ball in a pinch, and I believe I have a decent game. (I snapped-off the Greenfields end-of-year Open 9-ball tournament in Denver, Colorado this past December -- using a house cue, because I didn't have my cues with me and entered the tournament on an "oh, what the hell?" whim. And, I'll be playing in this weekend's Predator 9-ball Tour at Raxx Billiards in West Hempstead, Long Island, this weekend as well.) Does that mean I "like" the game of 9-ball? No. I much prefer straight pool, One Pocket, 10-ball, or gosh, even 8-ball over 9-ball. But I'll suck it up and play 9-ball, because for some areas, it's the only money-/tourney-thing around. Do I have a right to dislike the game of 9-ball? You betcha. But I won't whine and complain while I'm playing 9-ball -- I'll just give you my very best game, make a good go of it, and try to have some fun in the process. When playing me, you'll never know I dislike 9-ball, because I'll compliment you on a nice shot / safety, and in general be a cordial/courteous (but strong!) competitor.
Summary: I vehemently disagree with the 9-ball zealots on this thread/forum that seem to think that it's the player's fault he/she doesn't like the game of 9-ball. While some people's minds are wired to need a pattern dictated to them by the numbering of the balls, others have brains wired with pattern creativity and prefer a game that leverages this creativity. While it may be true that some b*tch and whine about a particular game because he/she may've lost money in a bad set, or didn't have a good showing in a tournament, that is absolutely NOT a bucket statement that should be applied with a broad brush across all people.
Respectfully,
-Sean