Jude Rosenstock said:
You're stuttering Jude.
New BCA Rules
- Thread starter rackmsuckr
- Start date
You're stuttering Jude.
I am a BCA ref and did a tournament here in ohio last month. We had around 40 eight on the breaks in the tournament with 45 teams and racing to 9. My personal opinion is I hate losing the game because of one lucky shot which is why I prefer eight ball to begin with.jay helfert said:
jay helfert said:You're stuttering Jude.
Yes or no would be fine, sir.
I'll take the bet with a couple of conditions
An impartial racker and reracks allowed and with Johnny Archer doing the hitting I'd love ten to one on the golden break barbox eightball. He called the pocket on me three times out of four on a barbox and the eight stopped less than an inch short the last time.
Of course that is why Jay specified the window wasn't open for everyone. The barbox eight can be a gaffe shot which I think was Jude's point.
Hu
An impartial racker and reracks allowed and with Johnny Archer doing the hitting I'd love ten to one on the golden break barbox eightball. He called the pocket on me three times out of four on a barbox and the eight stopped less than an inch short the last time.
Of course that is why Jay specified the window wasn't open for everyone. The barbox eight can be a gaffe shot which I think was Jude's point.
Hu
ShootingArts said:
Ssshh, don't knock my action.
IMO, the 8 on the break is a lucky shot; a fifteen ball combination shot. Plus it doesn't seem fair that you have to call every other ball, but the 8 on the break is free.
My league gives you the game for the 8 on the break unless you also scratch, then you lose. I like the BCA/WPA rule more.
My league gives you the game for the 8 on the break unless you also scratch, then you lose. I like the BCA/WPA rule more.
rackmsuckr said:Two new rules don't really make sense to me.
1. Racking your own. I think this was to cut down the interminable rack checking by the breaker, but especially in 9 ball, there are ways to influence a 9 ball break.I don't think the opponent is going to check EVERY rack every time. It also takes you out of the flow. You have to be extra diligent to make sure you mark your score.
2. Not arranging the balls in any special order. In 9 ball, you can 'fake' putting the balls in the rack. With 8 ball, it is tougher, not that there is much of an advantage in 8 ball. What I have a problem with is that traditionally, there have been a stripe and solid directly behind the 8 and then alternate solids and stripes, usually with a solid as the head ball.
Any thoughts on these new rules?
Racking your own is the WRONG rule for the game. PERIOD! Our local BCA has changed to this rule two or so session ago and now it all f'd up.
1. Now every incoming player checks the rack by the breaker. It seems that for some reason it's HARD to place the two balls behind the 9 ball right up on it. Pool is played with poor white trash, not that none of AZB'ers are PWT, but when we first went to rack your own it was amazing how many 9 ball breaks started taking place. TONS. Now, anyone who cares if they win or not checks to see if the back balls are touching. It takes longer to play now then it ever did before.
2. Racking balls in a pattern. We have many master players who have taken cheating to the next level. They care so much about winning and being league MVP and getting the extra $50 at the end of the season. They now rack 9 ball in a way that the balls come off the break very nice for them.
I made a stink to the league rep, one of these master players, and his responce was, "what is the penilty?" Well in vegas it's a game over for cheating, but his next statmetn was classic, "we're not in vegas".
Racking your own sucks. Too many cheats in pool.
that's right, i said it, too many cheats in pool.
cbi
stopping pattern racking was a ridiculous claim
As you note, all they changed was who was doing the patterning. Any pool game that the numbers on the balls or solids and stripes matters needs to have a complete specific order for every ball to be in with only the mirror image of that pattern being legal to not penalize left handers.
Humans being humans, far too many don't believe random actually means random and take it to mean any order they choose since none is specified.
Hu
As you note, all they changed was who was doing the patterning. Any pool game that the numbers on the balls or solids and stripes matters needs to have a complete specific order for every ball to be in with only the mirror image of that pattern being legal to not penalize left handers.
Humans being humans, far too many don't believe random actually means random and take it to mean any order they choose since none is specified.
Hu
cbi1000 said:
If you rack the balls really tight -- every ball touching its neighbors -- the wing ball goes in nearly every time. Is it cheating to rack tightly? The game of 9 ball is broken.cbi1000 said:
DR Pool said:
LOLOLOL. Nice interpretation. No, I never said that I had the over on 10%.
cbi1000 said:
For 8-ball, I feel that rack-your-own is better, hands down. My BCA league just switched to that, and I couldn't be happier about it.
For 9-ball, the solution is not rack-for-each other. The cheaters will still be there and will give you bad racks, perhaps ones that appear to break apart well, yet rarely make a ball in.
Plus now the honest people who are either bad at racking or too lazy to do it correctly will also get you. A lot of people are worse at racking than they apparently realize... they probably just figure all their opponents suck at breaking. LOL.
Anyway, the solution for 9/10 ball is rack-your-own & spot the money ball on the break. This is the only fair way to play, IMO, unless you have a qualified 3rd party racker, and preferably long races too. Even without spotting the money, I still prefer rack-your-own, just because it is a step in the right direction, IMO. :clapping:
About the odds of 8 on the snap
My opinion is that you both were a bit off.
It is far from "one of the hardest shots in pool"
I also would not like to take a 10 to 1 bet on me making it on the break.
I believe I WOULD take 15 to 1 though, me breaking on a bar box. I am not certain I would make money, but I would take the bet. I think that is the smallest odds I would accept.
It really will depend on the equipment and the player.
I remember when I first tried out the 2nd ball 8 ball break. I had great success with it. In fact I still vivdly remember my APA 8 ball match it must have been about 15 years or more now. I was an APA 4, I was playing an APA 3. I got 1st break.
I made the 8 on the break the first game. He racked em. I made the 8 on the break the 2nd game. I broke and ran the 3rd game. I broke the 4th game and the 8 ball hung in the corner, but I made another ball ( or 2), I ran out to my last 2 balls and the 8 still hanging in the corner. One of my balls was a hanger in the other corner. I tried to play my second to last ball off the 8 for a simple out, and accidently made the 8. The score was 3-1 and my opponenet had not had a single shot! Anyways, he broke the 5th game didn't make a ball, I played safe, then ran out the last rack. So he got one break and one kick shot for the whole match. Hey as an APA 4 ( and a 17 year old kid), I was damn proud of that match!
That was a long way of saying that as a SL4 I was doing it more than 15 to 1 ON 9 FT TABLES! That match I described was on a 9ftr.
Obviously I did not always make it 2 out of 4 breaks, and that was just things going my way. The odds will even out in the long run. I think for me, on a bar box, I COULD make money at 15 to 1. It is not a lock, but a bet I would be willing to try. And I am not any monster player. For many players 15 to 1 would be a lock all day!
I actually gave up the 2nd ball break a long time ago. I do not like the results. Too much chance of scraching and not getting a good layout. Besides, it has been awhile that I have played with an 8 on the break counting as a win. I will use it on occasion when I see my opponent has let the head ball roll off, though. When the 1 has rolled off, I have more of the 2nd ball to hit, and I don't want to lose all the energy on a non frozen head ball. I know I could ask for a rerack, but I usually will just adjust and not bother, unless it is an important match.
I KNOW there are players who could make money all day with a 10 to 1 bet, but I would still be very likely to give them a chance to do it.
I think in MOST cases, if you have the cash to wheather a bit of a hot streak, the odds will be less than 1 in 10, if you do it enough times. If you were to agree to say 40 attempts and no less, I think it would favor the non breaker in most cases.
The bottem line, I think that jude was a bit off, but not nearly as much as jay would like to believe.
My personal opinion is 15 to 1 is the threshold where the scale tips toward the breaker in most cases. JMO
Jw
My opinion is that you both were a bit off.
It is far from "one of the hardest shots in pool"
I also would not like to take a 10 to 1 bet on me making it on the break.
I believe I WOULD take 15 to 1 though, me breaking on a bar box. I am not certain I would make money, but I would take the bet. I think that is the smallest odds I would accept.
It really will depend on the equipment and the player.
I remember when I first tried out the 2nd ball 8 ball break. I had great success with it. In fact I still vivdly remember my APA 8 ball match it must have been about 15 years or more now. I was an APA 4, I was playing an APA 3. I got 1st break.
I made the 8 on the break the first game. He racked em. I made the 8 on the break the 2nd game. I broke and ran the 3rd game. I broke the 4th game and the 8 ball hung in the corner, but I made another ball ( or 2), I ran out to my last 2 balls and the 8 still hanging in the corner. One of my balls was a hanger in the other corner. I tried to play my second to last ball off the 8 for a simple out, and accidently made the 8. The score was 3-1 and my opponenet had not had a single shot! Anyways, he broke the 5th game didn't make a ball, I played safe, then ran out the last rack. So he got one break and one kick shot for the whole match. Hey as an APA 4 ( and a 17 year old kid), I was damn proud of that match!
That was a long way of saying that as a SL4 I was doing it more than 15 to 1 ON 9 FT TABLES! That match I described was on a 9ftr.
Obviously I did not always make it 2 out of 4 breaks, and that was just things going my way. The odds will even out in the long run. I think for me, on a bar box, I COULD make money at 15 to 1. It is not a lock, but a bet I would be willing to try. And I am not any monster player. For many players 15 to 1 would be a lock all day!
I actually gave up the 2nd ball break a long time ago. I do not like the results. Too much chance of scraching and not getting a good layout. Besides, it has been awhile that I have played with an 8 on the break counting as a win. I will use it on occasion when I see my opponent has let the head ball roll off, though. When the 1 has rolled off, I have more of the 2nd ball to hit, and I don't want to lose all the energy on a non frozen head ball. I know I could ask for a rerack, but I usually will just adjust and not bother, unless it is an important match.
I KNOW there are players who could make money all day with a 10 to 1 bet, but I would still be very likely to give them a chance to do it.
I think in MOST cases, if you have the cash to wheather a bit of a hot streak, the odds will be less than 1 in 10, if you do it enough times. If you were to agree to say 40 attempts and no less, I think it would favor the non breaker in most cases.
The bottem line, I think that jude was a bit off, but not nearly as much as jay would like to believe.
My personal opinion is 15 to 1 is the threshold where the scale tips toward the breaker in most cases. JMO
Jw
I'm not going to say what Jay suggests is the correct number since he hasn't actually said that. He has stated that I was "way out of line" and that it's one of the hardest shots in pool. He suggested we bet and find out who is right with me as the breaker. That's fine for me but there has to be a compromise between 10% and "way out of line" if we're going to gamble. I think this is fair.
I'll put it another way - If Jay said it rains in Toledo once a year and I said it rains half the time, why not make the bet 25%? Surely, if Jay is right, he's still heavily favored.
I'll put it another way - If Jay said it rains in Toledo once a year and I said it rains half the time, why not make the bet 25%? Surely, if Jay is right, he's still heavily favored.
I don't really mind racking my own, at least I know I will get a fair rack. I just don't understand why you can't arrange an 8-ball rack to be fairly distributed. How did that impact anything or favor anyone?
About the 8 ball break....we have a weekly 8 ball tournament on 9 foot Diamonds, with a break pot. I faithfully put my dollar in every week, just to contribute, or in case an earthquake hits the building when I am breaking and makes it go in.
Rarely does it build though, because there are breakers who send the 8 flying on their every break. Of course, in a race to 1, you have to win the lag to break! Anyway, the pot is won almost always within 2 weeks.
They also do another fun thing, which is to have a bounty on the guy who won the tournament the week before. You put in an extra dollar BEFORE THE DRAW for the bounty and in case you send him to the loser's side, you win the pot. My first tournament there, I won the bounty. Woo hoo!
About the 8 ball break....we have a weekly 8 ball tournament on 9 foot Diamonds, with a break pot. I faithfully put my dollar in every week, just to contribute, or in case an earthquake hits the building when I am breaking and makes it go in.
Rarely does it build though, because there are breakers who send the 8 flying on their every break. Of course, in a race to 1, you have to win the lag to break! Anyway, the pot is won almost always within 2 weeks.
They also do another fun thing, which is to have a bounty on the guy who won the tournament the week before. You put in an extra dollar BEFORE THE DRAW for the bounty and in case you send him to the loser's side, you win the pot. My first tournament there, I won the bounty. Woo hoo!
Jude Rosenstock said:
Earth to Jude, for the last time, you were the one who said 10% or MORE, not me. I only said that I disagree with that assessment. How difficult a shot it is, is really not the issue here. The issue is whether 10% of the time is an accurate number and I say NO it isn't. I will not negotiate on a number that you posted. If I had posted the 10% number and someone called me on it, I would have bet with them. You got cold feet the moment I called you on it.
For a guy who says he doesn't want to bet, you sure aren't willing to let it go. I think maybe you do want to bet. You just want to change the line now that someone has offered you action. Maybe you're the kind of guy who will ask for the eight ball and when someone agrees to give it to him, he'll change his mind and ask for the seven instead. Does that sound familiar Jude?
Cuebacca said:For 8-ball, I feel that rack-your-own is better, hands down. My BCA league just switched to that, and I couldn't be happier about it.
For 9-ball, the solution is not rack-for-each other. The cheaters will still be there and will give you bad racks, perhaps ones that appear to break apart well, yet rarely make a ball in.
Plus now the honest people who are either bad at racking or too lazy to do it correctly will also get you. A lot of people are worse at racking than they apparently realize... they probably just figure all their opponents suck at breaking. LOL.
Anyway, the solution for 9/10 ball is rack-your-own & spot the money ball on the break. This is the only fair way to play, IMO, unless you have a qualified 3rd party racker, and preferably long races too. Even without spotting the money, I still prefer rack-your-own, just because it is a step in the right direction, IMO. :clapping:
I agree, take away the win on the break!
jay helfert said:
So that's a no.
