New Guy with a few questions

Zphix

Zphix

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hey everybody,

I'm new here but I'm happy to have found a solid billiard forum and I look forward to being on the forum.

Being that I'm new I'll start with a bit of a backstory about me. I'm 19 playing (legally for the first time) in the APA League where I'm a 4 because it's my first league. I played once before I knew I was of legal age and got beat - so I went to the drawing board, hit up YouTube and learned more.

Over the past few months I've been practicing religiously, applying new methods I've been picking up, and I'm well above a SL 4. My knowledge of the game is constantly growing and I'm always trying to improve my game.

So, I've got a few questions for now.

1) I'm a taller guy (6'4) and a regular pool stance hurts my lower back after a while, and even though I've been experimenting with different stances, I can't seem to find one that is comfortable and reliable for me. I kick my feet out more, and bend my knees more, but still experience minor pain after a little while.

2) I know that systems exist in pool for pretty much everything. There are parallel shifting systems for banks, etc. What I want to know is if there is any system designed for cue ball control with English.

When I play, I try to play the CB to make it to a small area for my next shot, and I try to be as precise as possible (but am only about 50/50 at the moment). I'm trying to fine tune my game as much as possible so, are there any systems used to determine the amount and type of English to use in any position on the table?

Thanks everybody,

-Richard
 
Zphix said:
Hey everybody,

I'm new here but I'm happy to have found a solid billiard forum and I look forward to being on the forum.

Being that I'm new I'll start with a bit of a backstory about me. I'm 19 playing (legally for the first time) in the APA League where I'm a 4 because it's my first league. I played once before I knew I was of legal age and got beat - so I went to the drawing board, hit up YouTube and learned more.

Over the past few months I've been practicing religiously, applying new methods I've been picking up, and I'm well above a SL 4. My knowledge of the game is constantly growing and I'm always trying to improve my game.

So, I've got a few questions for now.

1) I'm a taller guy (6'4) and a regular pool stance hurts my lower back after a while, and even though I've been experimenting with different stances, I can't seem to find one that is comfortable and reliable for me. I kick my feet out more, and bend my knees more, but still experience minor pain after a little while.

2) I know that systems exist in pool for pretty much everything. There are parallel shifting systems for banks, etc. What I want to know is if there is any system designed for cue ball control with English.

When I play, I try to play the CB to make it to a small area for my next shot, and I try to be as precise as possible (but am only about 50/50 at the moment). I'm trying to fine tune my game as much as possible so, are there any systems used to determine the amount and type of English to use in any position on the table?

Thanks everybody,

-Richard
Click to expand...

It's funny that you should ask these questions, because there are THREE systems currently available to you, so you can impove your game by leaps and bounds.

System 1: Practice
System 2: Practice even more.
System 3: Just when you thought you were done practicing, PRACTICE SOME MORE;)

Glen
 
Zphix said:
I know that systems exist in pool for pretty much everything. There are parallel shifting systems for banks, etc. What I want to know is if there is any system designed for cue ball control with English.
Click to expand...

I don't know if there's a single system, like there is for, say, three rail kicks, but there are a couple that help. I suggest Dr. dave's site here: http://billiards.colostate.edu

Check out the 30 degree rule for follow shots and the "double the angle" (or something like that) system for draw, among others.
 
I have found that when my back starts bugging me, I shift my hips like a traditional snooker player, that is lowering your body to the shot evenly and square. It helps shift your weight off the soreness sometimes. You shouldn't be in pain at 19. Welcome to the forum.
 
im about your height and have had the same issues with back pain over the years. My main issue was trying to get too low on the shot (emulating a lot of todays famous players, who are also quite a bit shorter than we are). You dont have to get so low on the shot that your chin touches the cuestick, just get low enough that you can sight everything but still be comfortable. Once i got over that my back pain went away and i play better than before.
 
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Zphix said:
Hey everybody,


1) I'm a taller guy (6'4) and a regular pool stance hurts my lower back after a while, and even though I've been experimenting with different stances, I can't seem to find one that is comfortable and reliable for me. I kick my feet out more, and bend my knees more, but still experience minor pain after a little while.



-Richard
Click to expand...
Try core strength training and stretching.
 
BRussell said:
I don't know if there's a single system, like there is for, say, three rail kicks, but there are a couple that help. I suggest Dr. dave's site here: http://billiards.colostate.edu

Check out the 30 degree rule for follow shots and the "double the angle" (or something like that) system for draw, among others.
Click to expand...

start here @ Dr. Dave.
every THU @ 10pmEST, is www.americanbilliardradio.com - Scott Lee's 1 minute tips. usually @ end of show.

and check your PMs.
 
Have you tried snooker stance?
I am also 6'4", and I am 40. I've found snooker stance helps me bend low without as much pressure on my (lower) back.
As aforementioned, stretch and take a break every one or two hour of play help too.
 
Thanks for all the speedy replies guys.

It's funny that many of you mentioned Dr.Dave because I watched almost all his videos today and can now practice English control having an idea of what's going to happen instead of practicing blindly.

At 19 there aren't too many holes in my game but precision English control has been a thorn in my side.

Now all that's left to do is practice, and practice more while trying out a snooker stance.

Again, thanks for the replies everybody.

-Richard
 
Hi,
6 ft 2 and I'd say snooker stance as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PJQMCh0f0U

Apart from the snooker stance, I also think my back has stopped bothering me less ever since I started playing with my bridge hand fully straight. When I was chicken winging my arm, it made me stand a bit higher and I think it wasn't the getting up and getting down that was hurting my back, but that I wasn't fully standing or fully bent over. Holding my body halfway was the culprit.

It also might just be because I've been playing 8plus hours everyday...and my back is getting used to it.
 
Unfortunately controlling english is almost 100% feel, there's no bulletproof formula.
It just takes experience.

That's because how well the english takes depends on the accuracy of your tip placement,
stroke speed, condition of the rails, even weight of the cue ball.
Any spin system that works on one table, for one guy, might not work for you on your table.

That being said, there are some excellent youtube videos worth a look, the ideas can work anywhere:
The Wagon Wheel Drill - sending the CB in any direction from a straighish shot.
Trisect system for predicting draw path.
Eckert's Reference Line 1 - Cuts into the corner, zigzagging across the long rails.
Eckert's Reference Line 2 - Long cuts into the corner, going up and down the table.
Eckert's Reference Line 3 - Natural follow path with 45 degree cuts.

One thing you want to maybe rethink is the idea of picking an exact spot and then trying
to force the cue ball to go there. Because the ideal spot may not be a spot you can naturally
land on easily. Instead, pick a line the cue ball can take, and that line has lots of "good enough" spots
where the cue ball can stop and leave you a simple shot.

A concept I find useful for cueball control is... well, it's hard to put into words but I'll try.

I guess you could call it "full spin". Not maximum spin which would mean putting excessive
spin on the cue ball, the kind of shot that might miscue or swerve or whatever.
But a "Normal" amount of sidespin or draw or whatever.

You want to use full, normal spin on most shots when possible.
You want to keep away from touchy, delicate, partial amounts of spin.
That's where you can get into trouble controlling the cue ball.

Those touch shots will be necessary sometimes, but when they're not,
you probably should stick with something predictable.

Here's one example. Some may disagree with it, maybe I make a better one later.
Playing shape from the 7 to 8 in a game of 9-ball.

rrW147b.jpg


In shot A, you could use a hair below center, and stun straight towards the 8 as shown (red line).
But I prefer the longer cue ball route shown in shot B.
The reason is that you can do shot B with full spin (low left I think, based on the angle drawn).
As long as you make the ball and use normal spin, the cue ball should end up with the right angle,
and a reasonable distance, and you don't need any special finesse to get there.

In shot A, if you hit a hair high or low, and hit firm, your cue ball could go on a wildly different spot.
Shot A is a touchy, delicate shot that doesn't quite use perfect center ball (which is kinda hard anyway)
and doesn't quite use full draw.

If you do accidentally get full draw you might end up near the lower white circle.
If you accidentally put a hair of top, or just underestimate the speed, your cueball dives
forward a little towards the upper white circle, and now you've got the wrong angle on the 8.

But with the route using full low left, your cue ball is very predictable.
Any amount of low left should lead you to the right angle. It's not a specific, delicate amount of low left.
Hell, you might get there even if you totally forget the draw, and just hit left, or vice versa.
It sure can't go forward accidentally, and you'd have to really murder it to get on the wrong side.

Stick with full normal spin and leave the delicate touch shots for situations where they're necessary.
 
Clock System

Zphix said:
Hey everybody,

I'm new here but I'm happy to have found a solid billiard forum and I look forward to being on the forum.

Being that I'm new I'll start with a bit of a backstory about me. I'm 19 playing (legally for the first time) in the APA League where I'm a 4 because it's my first league. I played once before I knew I was of legal age and got beat - so I went to the drawing board, hit up YouTube and learned more.

Over the past few months I've been practicing religiously, applying new methods I've been picking up, and I'm well above a SL 4. My knowledge of the game is constantly growing and I'm always trying to improve my game.

So, I've got a few questions for now.

1) I'm a taller guy (6'4) and a regular pool stance hurts my lower back after a while, and even though I've been experimenting with different stances, I can't seem to find one that is comfortable and reliable for me. I kick my feet out more, and bend my knees more, but still experience minor pain after a little while.

2) I know that systems exist in pool for pretty much everything. There are parallel shifting systems for banks, etc. What I want to know is if there is any system designed for cue ball control with English.

When I play, I try to play the CB to make it to a small area for my next shot, and I try to be as precise as possible (but am only about 50/50 at the moment). I'm trying to fine tune my game as much as possible so, are there any systems used to determine the amount and type of English to use in any position on the table?

Thanks everybody,

-Richard
Click to expand...

The Clock System might be something for you to explore. Buddy Hall explains it at the link below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ypc_peV3EWE
 
Zphix said:
Hey everybody,

I'm new here but I'm happy to have found a solid billiard forum and I look forward to being on the forum.

Being that I'm new I'll start with a bit of a backstory about me. I'm 19 playing (legally for the first time) in the APA League where I'm a 4 because it's my first league. I played once before I knew I was of legal age and got beat - so I went to the drawing board, hit up YouTube and learned more.

Over the past few months I've been practicing religiously, applying new methods I've been picking up, and I'm well above a SL 4. My knowledge of the game is constantly growing and I'm always trying to improve my game.

So, I've got a few questions for now.

1) I'm a taller guy (6'4) and a regular pool stance hurts my lower back after a while, and even though I've been experimenting with different stances, I can't seem to find one that is comfortable and reliable for me. I kick my feet out more, and bend my knees more, but still experience minor pain after a little while.

2) I know that systems exist in pool for pretty much everything. There are parallel shifting systems for banks, etc. What I want to know is if there is any system designed for cue ball control with English.

When I play, I try to play the CB to make it to a small area for my next shot, and I try to be as precise as possible (but am only about 50/50 at the moment). I'm trying to fine tune my game as much as possible so, are there any systems used to determine the amount and type of English to use in any position on the table?

Thanks everybody,

-Richard
Click to expand...

For #2, that is the issue with "systems", speed control and spin are in no way capable of being learned unless it's though practice and experience. Every aiming system that exists relies on a perfect stroke with no spin. The only thing I'd suggest aside from "practice" is to find a good player and learn from them, best to find a good teacher even if it's not the best player you know.

Since each table will play different, and since you are not a robot that can apply the same force and use the exact same tip placement on each shot, there is no way you can say "for this shot I will hit at 34% of my full power with .9 mm of left spin"

I can't help at all with your first question as I'm 5'6", my issue is not the stance but not being able to reach many shots LOL
 
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Cree, and everyone else,

I appreciate the responses guys ;)

Let me update my post a little bit now.

I was watching the Dr. Dave videos and drew out a few of the concepts in my notebook to practice earlier today. More notably, I drew out the 30 degree rule, the 90 degree rule, and the trisect rule.

I wasn't looking for a system for exact cue ball position (I apologize for being unclear) and instead I was looking more or less for how English, and speed affect cue ball action. I've surmised that faster speeds increase tangent line route distance before getting action, etc.

I now have a more proper grasp of English and speed, and how they affect cue ball action so I went to the poolhall to test it out, and I've got the hang of it (certainly not mastery after a day, but still I can get the CB to go where I'd like).

What saddens me a bit though, is that I love playing with players who are better than me so I can learn what to do and what not to do... but sadly there are only about 3 players who are actually better than me (I'm a quick learner when it comes to things I enjoy... I grasp info and concepts very fast and can apply them almost instantly).

I started out as an APA SL 4 because it's my first league, but the APA representative in my areas said that I play at the level of a 7 but I can't move up that fast...

-Richard
 
Zphix said:
Cree, and everyone else,

I appreciate the responses guys ;)

Let me update my post a little bit now.

I was watching the Dr. Dave videos and drew out a few of the concepts in my notebook to practice earlier today. More notably, I drew out the 30 degree rule, the 90 degree rule, and the trisect rule.

I wasn't looking for a system for exact cue ball position (I apologize for being unclear) and instead I was looking more or less for how English, and speed affect cue ball action. I've surmised that faster speeds increase tangent line route distance before getting action, etc.

I now have a more proper grasp of English and speed, and how they affect cue ball action so I went to the poolhall to test it out, and I've got the hang of it (certainly not mastery after a day, but still I can get the CB to go where I'd like).

What saddens me a bit though, is that I love playing with players who are better than me so I can learn what to do and what not to do... but sadly there are only about 3 players who are actually better than me (I'm a quick learner when it comes to things I enjoy... I grasp info and concepts very fast and can apply them almost instantly).

I started out as an APA SL 4 because it's my first league, but the APA representative in my areas said that I play at the level of a 7 but I can't move up that fast...

-Richard
Click to expand...

Great that you are trying to learn and are improving, APA 7 levels are pretty good, unless the guy does not have a good reference to what an APA 7 should play like or is overstating your skill. In 9 ball an APA 7 can be a C+ player and up to about a B-. If a B or a B+ ar not an 8, they are either bad at winning during competition or are sandbagging. If you're talking about a 7 in 8-ball, that is a B and up, which is a pretty good skill level for an average player.

A beginner can watch a B player play and would think they were pro level players.

If you don't have any good players around you, some people take video of their sessions and post them in the instructor forum here looking for pointers. Things like shooting a bit too fast, lining up wrong on the shot, moving your body, steering during shots, all those things can be tough to figure out on your own and can come out pretty fast once people get a look at your game.
 
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Zphix said:
1) I'm a taller guy (6'4) and a regular pool stance hurts my lower back after a while, and even though I've been experimenting with different stances, I can't seem to find one that is comfortable and reliable for me. I kick my feet out more, and bend my knees more, but still experience minor pain after a little while.
Click to expand...
Im also tall (6'3"). FYI, some of the suggestion in the following video might be helpful:

NV D.7 - Pool Fundamentals - The Stance - from Vol-I of the Billiard University instructional DVD series

I hope you can find something more comfortable,
Dave
 
hang-the-9,

I was told this after playing a match of 8-ball against another team. My team captain asked me if I would feel comfortable playing a 7 (though I was a 4), and I was fine with it. It didn't last as long as I'd wanted because it was a race to 3-5 ( I had to win 3 before he won 5), and he only shot three times.

I'd be curious to know what I'm ranked in 9-ball though because I prefer it slightly over 8-ball.

I'd venture to say I'm about a B- because I can run racks and usually do on league nights but I don't do so as consistently as I'd like (but I'm working on it =D).

Dave,

I actually checked out the video yesterday after watching some of your other stuff on YouTube. It was very helpful and you've already helped me improve my game quite a bit.

Stance-wise though, I think it came from me sleeping on my stomach (which caused lower back pain naturally) which then became worse after playing pool. I've opted to spread my feet out more, and bend my knees more allowing my back to remain straighter while still keeping my chin right around the cue though.

-Richard
 
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