Agree, 100 percent! They still don't play nearly as good as a diamond, IMHO.
New Redesigned Valley Pool Tables Just off the trucks
- Thread starter HudsonSmith
- Start date
JT:
I never saw anywhere in Glen's post that the proprietor of the establishment raised the price of coin drop, nevermind a highway robbery price of +50 cents. I think you [wrongfully] assumed this. I know up here in NY, a game costs $1.00 already on Valleys. (There are few places -- very few and far between -- that might charge $0.75, but that's rare!) The proprietor is NOT going to raise the price to $1.50, as you suggest. First, the leagues would throw a BLOODY fit, then quit, and so would the customers. That kind of plan to recoup the cost of the Diamond table would backfire BIG TIME.
The intent in making up for the price of the table via coin drop is NOT by raising the price of per-game coin drop. Rather, it's volume -- more people are going to want to play on that beautiful new Diamond than the "ho-hum" Valley.
As a matter of fact, Greg Sullivan put a challenge to me last year when I spent some time with him at SBE. He says in those establishments that have two or more Valley tables, he recommends NOT replacing all of them at once. Rather, the idea is to replace only one or two, and watch where the most coin drop occurs. Greg's challenge to me was that he *BETS* his table will get the most coin drop by huge margin. Otherwise, if he loses the bet, he'll concede and work out a plan with the proprietor to take the Diamond back and reinstall the old Valley table. That was last year, but I'll wager that Greg would still be just as aggressive with his upgrade plan.
The beauty of Diamond Smart Tables is the cue ball detection -- it's optical, not magnetic- or weight-dependent. So as long as the cue ball is "white," it will return. No need for cue ball modifications like adding metal slugs or magnetic foil inside the cue ball itself, which we all know tremendously modifies the behavior of the cue ball. Just a regular cue ball -- e.g. a Brunswick Blue Circle Centennial or Aramith Red Circle works just fine. Even a measles ball returns on a Smart Table. Try that on a Valley, without opening up the side panel (thereby disabling the purpose of coin drop to begin with).
Although its debatable whether your average bar banger will ever notice the difference between cue balls (except those that know how to draw their rock -- they'll notice "hey, the cue ball is very zingy for some 'strange' reason -- I can draw the p!ss out of it on this table!"), leaguers will definitely notice. And they'll notice they can jump much easier, as well.
You might want to keep these things in mind about the Diamonds -- they really *DO* play much different than the Valleys, and there are cost justifications that, in the end, level out.
FYI,
-Sean
First off I said "IF" he raised the price. Second, do you know for sure he's "NOT" going to raise the price? Three, stop talking to me like your my father. Johnnyt
JT:
For the first two, perhaps Glen can clarify. Glen?
As for three, I don't think I was; just merely pointing out the differences, which go far beyond just the cost of the table and the rails, which is what you were pointing out. Didn't mean to call Valley tables ugly -- they serve their purpose for what they do.
-Sean
Yup, that's true. There nothing unique about the Aramith Red Circle -- it's just a standard cue ball, and, because it handles draw so well, is a favorite of 9-ballers (that's why it's so popular, and seems to be the "standard" on Diamond tables in certain establishments -- everyone's familiar with it).
But yes, any white cue ball will return on a Diamond Smart Table. That's the beauty of the optical sensor -- it puts a *standard* cue ball back into the bar table environment.
-Sean
Not meaning to correct anyone here, but first of all the Valley tables that I replaced with the Diamonds were set at .75 cents a game, so the Diamonds were also set at .75cents a game.
Then, the cue balls are separated by density, not color...so a normal white cue ball won't work on a Diamond smart table, the cue ball has to have a certain minimum density in order for the cue ball separator to detect the difference between the cue ball and the object balls. The higher the density the easier it can tell which ball is the cue ball, that's the main reason the red circle cue ball was the choice cue ball for the Diamonds, although some other cue balls will work just as well, like the Brunswick black circle, and sometimes even the measle cue balls will work, though not all the time because they can vary quite a bit in density.
Glen
Yeah, but the side pockets on Diamonds are buckets.
How did SVB miss it?
JK we have a few places with them around town.
SDbilliards has been putting them in.
I like playing on them.:thumbup2:
And for what it's worth, I do agree with you Johnny, not all bars & pubs are meant to have Diamond tables, even though the Diamonds will take far more abuse than any Valley table ever would...it's just that in some cases it's not going to really be cost effective to install Diamond tables...but at the very least...the locations can make the Valley tables play much better with the Ridgeback rails and new cloth
I really have no objections to playing on Valley tables, if they'll at least play have way decent like a bar table should, it's just that there's so many Valley tables out there that truely do represent the same mindset of the bar owners...which is why they end up changing ownership at some point down the road....because if they don't do the things needed to stay in business....they won't be in business. You can take that to the bankGlen
Sorry I've taken so long to get the photo. My only excuse is "It's Vegas Baby" I hope this helps
No problem, Glen! Actually, I was soliciting your expert opinion. But .75 cents a game?!? How is that possible? I didn't know the U.S. Mint made denominations smaller than a penny! So that means for every dollar, I can play 133 games? Wow!
J/K, of course. As for the types of cue ball that return on the Diamond Smart Tables, thanks! I actually carry a Brunswick Blue Circle Centennial and a genuine Aramith measles ball with me, and I tried it in one of the Smart Tables down at SBE -- they both returned! The Blue Circle Centennial is a very dense ball (it's not as zingy as the Red Circle), so methinks that stands to reason why it returned. As for the measles ball, I concur with you that unfortunately, there are variations of this ball. First, there's a Chinese copy made by Sterling that has eight dots, and is very bleached white in color:
http://alibaba.com/product/us108195188-262494327-0/Sterling_Professional_Spotted_Cue_Ball.html
The "real" Aramith measles ball, AFAIK, is made in Belgium by Saluc, has only six dots, and has a Tapioca color, the same Tapioca color as the Red Circle (presumably the same resin formulation?).
http://ozonebilliards.com/arprocupcueb.html
Or are you saying that even amongst the genuine measles balls, there are idiosyncracies preventing a guaranteed return through a Smart Table?
-Sean
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Correct, but that is what varies between cue balls, in which some will work, while others won't.
Glen
No problem, Glen! Actually, I was soliciting your expert opinion. But .75 cents a game?!? How is that possible? I didn't know the U.S. Mint made denominations smaller than a penny! So that means for every dollar, I can play 133 games? Wow!
Such a smartass....reminds me of ME
Good looking don't make it better. It still requires the pocket castings to bolt through and hold the 4 side panels together, still uses the undersized 3/4" or 7/8" slate depending on which size table, which means you still don't have that solid feel or effect of the rails bolting through the slate for a solid rail support. Still uses the Valley ball gate to drop the balls, that break. Still uses the magnetic cue ball. Still uses a high tension return spring to return the ball drop gate....which still breaks.
It's a newer looking Valley on the outside....but 30+ years old on the inside...and that's the problem with Valley tables....the INSIDE design, as it's still going to have slate sag from end to end. BUT....it LOOKS good, unfortuneitly...players are seeking out better PLAYING tables more and more...and so are the Vending Companies. When Vending Companies are buying Diamonds and replacing their Valleys, taking them back to the shop...before they buy NEW Valleys....they'll all first want to do something with the Valleys they're sitting on that are still in good condition....so I just wonder what kind of plan or trade-in the Valley Company is going to be willing to offer....to get the Vending Companies to buy NEW Valleys...when they have them hanging out their....a$$!
Glen
Sorry I've taken so long to get the photo. My only excuse is "It's Vegas Baby" I hope this helps
Looks nice. but now if they would get rid of ALL of the metal trim and replace the pocket inserts from rubber to leather it would be a real step in the right direction. What's so hard about it? Just give the consumer what they are looking for.
I think the point is for them to keep their table an affordable option for most people.