no backpause= more english

[Donny Lutz]

Don't think in the shooting position!

I think the more you pause, they more time you have to change your mind about where to aim. Gives you too much time to choke on a shot.

Just screws up your rhythm and too much time to change your mind.

But whatever works for one person might not work for another.


And for real, I don't even think about it when I shoot. I might pause myself...don't know and don't care. And what ball I look at last before I shoot...don't know that either. I do think it depends on what shot it is though.


So no...it is not BS.

The pause is not meant to be a time for thinking and changing one's mind. If you're thinking in the shooting position, you have your shot execution steps in the wrong order. If you find yourself having doubts and thinking during your practice strokes or your pause, it's probably a good idea to stand up, re-evaluate your plan and THEN execute.

I respect the arguments on both sides of this issue. All I know for sure is that I play better when I use a pause, though it's not much of a pause on simple shots. And I rarely think about it; when I'm playing well, I use the pause. When I execute poorly, I'm sometimes aware that I didn't use my pause. I do think about it sometimes during practice. As others have stated, it seems to help especially when I need to let out my stroke. And my pause is very brief.

I think it's more important to execute the slow pull back.

 

[JoeW]

I think that if you let the shot play itself you will determine if you do or do not need a pause. Here is what I mean. Stroke the shot a few times until it feels right and just let your brain / subconscious decide when to take that last stroke and fire. In other words the shot is not “intentional.” You know it is going to happen you just don’t know when. This may be difficult for people who have previously decided that they will have three stokes and then fire. For the rest of us, just keep stoking until the brain lets go. It might be two stokes it might be ten. The idea is to not really decide on the number of strokes and let the shot shoot itself.

I think that if you do this a few times you will learn what your subconscious prefers. That is what you should use.

I have found that when I choose which stroke to fire on there is a pause. When I stroke until the subconscious shoots there is a slower back swing and a shorter pause. It seems that my brain / subconscious prefers the fluid motion with a slight pause before firing. Several here who advocate the pause in the stroke would probably say that I don’t have a pause when I let the shot shoot itself. However, I can feel that slight hesitation as if the brain is making a final check of all the muscles.

 

[Neil]

I think that if you let the shot play itself you will determine if you do or do not need a pause. Here is what I mean. Stroke the shot a few times until it feels right and just let your brain / subconscious decide when to take that last stroke and fire. In other words the shot is not “intentional.” You know it is going to happen you just don’t know when. This may be difficult for people who have previously decided that they will have three stokes and then fire. For the rest of us, just keep stoking until the brain lets go. It might be two stokes it might be ten. The idea is to not really decide on the number of strokes and let the shot shoot itself.

I think that if you do this a few times you will learn what your subconscious prefers. That is what you should use.

I have found that when I choose which stroke to fire on there is a pause. When I stroke until the subconscious shoots there is a slower back swing and a shorter pause. It seems that my brain / subconscious prefers the fluid motion with a slight pause before firing. Several here who advocate the pause in the stroke would probably say that I don’t have a pause when I let the shot shoot itself. However, I can feel that slight hesitation as if the brain is making that last check of all the muscles.

Joe, you are light years ahead of most when it comes to the WHY of using a pause. As I stated earlier, it's not the pause, it's what you do with the pause that counts. The pause should be a shift from any conscious thought to total subconsious. The shot shoots itself when it is ready. A slow pull back to ensure the cue stays on the exact same line that it is on, then the subconscious totally takes over and actually shoots the shot.

 

[Slasher]

To remain consistent this is not something I would try to use occasionally it messes up your timing big time, you either incorporate it or you don't.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

You see this "pause" in the golf swing as well at the transition point between back swing and down swing. I've often heard of it as "the gathering of the shot"

I can see almost nothing in common between the golf swing and the pool stroke. The golf swing coils up the entire body until the limit of motion is reached. The mass of the body holds the swing almost motionless for just an instant (except for the club head, which is still moving due to inertia and shaft flex), and then the forward swing commences as the body begins to uncoil. I've never seen any pro golfer stand there motionless at the top of their swing like Buddy and Allison and many snooker players do at the end of their backstroke. Get to the driving range and see how a pause like that works for you.

Closest thing I can think of is darts, only in reverse (the biceps is employed on the backswing rather that on the forward stroke). Almost every world-class dart player I've ever seen has a very fluid and seamless transition between back swing and delivery. The shot delivery is primarily a hinging action of the elbow (similar to the pendulum stroke), with an extension of the arm from the shoulder as a follow through, with no detectable pause in spite of the extreme accuracy required for the shot.

The pause in a pool stroke can probably work for you or against you, but I don't think it's a natural motion. Snooker players abroad are coached in rock-solid fundamentals from early on. The motion can be taught, but I think you really need a first-rate coach to do that right from the start. We Americans are an unruly and rebellious lot, and we usually are well on our way in development by the time we think we need help.

If you are going to try to completely change your fundamentals, I believe you need to take a break from playing and just commit to concentrating on that until it is second nature.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I think that if you let the shot play itself you will determine if you do or do not need a pause. Here is what I mean. Stroke the shot a few times until it feels right and just let your brain / subconscious decide when to take that last stroke and fire. In other words the shot is not “intentional.” You know it is going to happen you just don’t know when. This may be difficult for people who have previously decided that they will have three stokes and then fire. For the rest of us, just keep stoking until the brain lets go. It might be two stokes it might be ten. The idea is to not really decide on the number of strokes and let the shot shoot itself.

I think that if you do this a few times you will learn what your subconscious prefers. That is what you should use.

I have found that when I choose which stroke to fire on there is a pause. When I stroke until the subconscious shoots there is a slower back swing and a shorter pause. It seems that my brain / subconscious prefers the fluid motion with a slight pause before firing. Several here who advocate the pause in the stroke would probably say that I don’t have a pause when I let the shot shoot itself. However, I can feel that slight hesitation as if the brain is making a final check of all the muscles.

Joe,

I also agree with what you say here.

I guess I should leave it at that because I have a thought that is unrelated.

Best Regards & Well Stated,

 

[Island Drive]

Pause

"the gathering of the shot" is a Good pt CJ made.
It is that point in time when I transition and commit 100% of my attention to the shot & its outcome. Putting 100% into the preshot routine, and then again 100% into the shot is not the way I to expend my energy. The 100/100 feels like your trying to Make things happen, when all thats needed most the time, is to let things happen, observe, remember and move on.

 

[CJ Wiley]

This doesn't suggest a certain amount of time, and it does recommend feeling........

]"the gathering of the shot" is a Good pt CJ made.
It is that point in time when I transition and commit 100% of my attention to the shot & its outcome. Putting 100% into the preshot routine, and then again 100% into the shot is not the way I to expend my energy. The 100/100 feels like your trying to Make things happen, when all thats needed most the time, is to let things happen, observe, remember and move on.

Yes, I prefer the thought "gathering of the shot," and you can see it in any sport or game. Basketball players use a "gathering", they don't just pull the basketball back and propel if forward towards the goal.

In activities that require a lot of power and speed, like pitching a baseball it's very obvious, and precision gambling games like coin tossing it's likewise obvious. Back in the 80s I've seen some champion "coin tossers" that could stop a quarter on the back of a stool, and distinctly remember the "gathering" in their technique.

I was taught about the pause and release in pool by my mentor suggesting I seek to understand the way of the archer from this passage in 'Zen in the Art of Archery'

It is all so simple. You can learn from an ordinary bamboo leaf what ought to happen. It bends lower and lower under the weight of snow. Suddenly the snow slips to the ground without the leaf having stirred.

Stay like that at the point of highest tension until the shot falls from you.

So, indeed it is: when the tension is fulfilled, the show must fall, it must fall from the archer like snow from a bamboo leaf, before he even thinks it. ~ Zen in the Art of Archery, Eugen Harrigel (1953/1971)

So thinking in terms of "releasing" the cue at the moment of highest tension has been a key for me. This doesn't demand a certain amount of time, it does recommend feeling the "transition point" as "highest tension".......everyone will do this in their own personal way. 'The Game is the Teacher' CJ Wiley www.cjwiley.com

 

[RRfireblade]

I seek to understand the way of the archer from this passage in 'Zen in the Art of Archery' .

Ah see, that explains why I pause. I am in fact an avid archer.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Pocket billiards is touch, self expression, and creativity at the highest levels.

Ah see, that explains why I pause. I am in fact an avid archer.

I used a "bow and arrow" quite a bit growing up and also hammered a lot of nails in my father's lumber yard. This combination was ideal for my pool development and who would ever put those two things together? Hammering nails is the perfect exercise to develop the wrist motion for the pool stroke and the archery is ideal for the "gathering of the shot".

Building bridges from one "art form" {or sport} to another is a powerful way to learn, it taps into the subconscious where we access creativity. Pocket billiards is touch, self expression, and creativity at the highest levels.

When drawing the string (Pool Cue) you should not exert the full strength of your body, but must learn to let only your two hands do the work, while your arm and shoulder muscles remain relaxed, as though they looked on impassively. Only when you can do this will you have fulfilled one of the conditions that make the drawing and the shooting ˆspiritual˜. 'ZEN in the ART of ARCHERY'

 

[One Pocket John]

I think that if you let the shot play itself you will determine if you do or do not need a pause. Here is what I mean. Stroke the shot a few times until it feels right and just let your brain / subconscious decide when to take that last stroke and fire. In other words the shot is not “intentional.” You know it is going to happen you just don’t know when. This may be difficult for people who have previously decided that they will have three stokes and then fire. For the rest of us, just keep stoking until the brain lets go. It might be two stokes it might be ten. The idea is to not really decide on the number of strokes and let the shot shoot itself.

I think that if you do this a few times you will learn what your subconscious prefers. That is what you should use.

I have found that when I choose which stroke to fire on there is a pause. When I stroke until the subconscious shoots there is a slower back swing and a shorter pause. It seems that my brain / subconscious prefers the fluid motion with a slight pause before firing. Several here who advocate the pause in the stroke would probably say that I don’t have a pause when I let the shot shoot itself. However, I can feel that slight hesitation as if the brain is making a final check of all the muscles.

This is what happens when I play Joe.

I don't really make a decision to pull the trigger after a couple of practice strokes........It just happens with no conscious decision.

I do pause on the back stroke but not consciously.

You always seem to have good posts that are constructive and positive.:smile:

John

 

[ENGLISH!]

This is what happens when I play Joe.

I don't really make a decision to pull the trigger after a couple of practice strokes........It just happens with no conscious decision.

I do pause on the back stroke but not consciously.

You always seem to have good posts that are constructive and positive.:smile:

John

Hi John,

I agree with your accessment of Joe's posts. I wish I could send him all of my posts to re-write them with concise & forthright wording.

Regards,

 

[CJ Wiley]

The wrist motion is very similar to the motion used in hammering a nail.

I can see almost nothing in common between the golf swing and the pool stroke. The golf swing coils up the entire body until the limit of motion is reached. The mass of the body holds the swing almost motionless for just an instant (except for the club head, which is still moving due to inertia and shaft flex), and then the forward swing commences as the body begins to uncoil. I've never seen any pro golfer stand there motionless at the top of their swing like Buddy and Allison and many snooker players do at the end of their backstroke. Get to the driving range and see how a pause like that works for you.

Actually I have done drills with Hank Haney and the golf swing was held motionless at the top. When all the components are working correctly you can actually stop before you go into the downswing. Once in a while TIGER get's "sharked" and stops his downswing in mid stroke......many of you have seen him do this and it's difficult to understand how he can do this. I learned this technique from Hank.

In the golf swing the wrists cock, the arms raise, the shoulders turn (rotating the arm/forearm/wrist) and the hips create the coil shifting the weight to the right (inside) foot.

On the downswing this is reversed. The forearm, wrist, hand motion in the pool stroke is not understood very well by the average player. The wrist motion is very similar to the motion used in hammering a nail. Many players, incorrectly think the wrist cocks up in the stroke, when actually cocks down (like delivering the hammer head to strike the nail).

At some point I've had a lot of requests to show exactly how this is done on video, it loses a lot in the written translation of the experience. This was also true in golf for many years, until Hank Haney and a few others set the record straight with high tech cameras.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Actually I have done drills with Hank Haney and the golf swing was held motionless at the top. When all the components are working correctly you can actually stop before you go into the downswing.

Drills serve particular purposes, but I can't see how you'd actually play that way, (with a pronounced pause at the top of the swing). That's an interesting photo nonetheless. Looks a lot like a fishing cast, which is an analogy I've used before. I think Shane has a similar action in his stroke. I do know he loves to fish. How about you?

 

[JoeW]

Thanks guys. It is nice to be appreciated. Sometimes I write and wonder if anyone reads it. :grin:

And the answer is "yes" English. I did write for "Cues and News" at one time. I have also written many journal articles and a few books.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Thanks guys. It is nice to be appreciated. Sometimes I write and wonder if anyone reads it. :grin:

And the answer is "yes" English. I did write for "Cues and News" at one time. I have also written many journal articles and a few books.

Joe,

I thought so. Space is valuable in print & too many words start taking up space that can't be sold.

I never understood why in school they wanted us to write papers of a 1,000 words or more when the 'story' could be told in 500. Then I started coaching & had kids & quickly learned that sometimes you have to say the same thing many times in different ways just to communicate a simple thought.

I wish I had your skill.

Best Regards & Wishes,

 

[predator]

To answer the OP, the advices you get in pool halls are sometimes good, sometimes bad. You need to be open minded, but at the same time be aware that sometimes even really good players are full of it and think in terms of 'my way or the highway'. IMO this is one of those cases unfortunately.
I know exactly how it feels. You feel bad for not following advice from a better player, because you know for sure that there are lots of much better and more accurate players than him out there doing exactly the opposite...etc...but at the same time you feel even less comfortable mentioning that to him.
Mentor/student combination do not always work. In fact most don't work at all. Both parties must be open minded and willing to experiment. If not, most of the instruction, if not all of it, will be a waste. IMO a stubborn mentor is more of a problem than a stubborn student. Unfortunately this is the reality of pool and billiards instruction.

 

[onepocketron]

Pause is good.

 

[thehoneybadger]

I didn't read all the posts in this thread but I have to say a 1sec pause has been a HUGE help to me pocketing balls AND with english play specially the longer shots.

 

[Maniac]

I didn't read all the posts in this thread but I have to say a 1sec pause has been a HUGE help to me pocketing balls AND with english play specially the longer shots.

Listen noob , demanding minds want more information. Do you pause at the cueball or at the end of the final backstroke???

Remember, this forum is the information highway for all things pool related!!! :thumbup:

Maniac