A game of 10 ball played with rules that would take out most of the luck, maybe 90% or better. Here is the game. Call shot and called safeties. The incoming player has the option to return the shot on all missed balls and pocketed safeties. The 10 does not win on the break, and the 10 ball on a scratch must be made off the spot, behind the line. I like 10 ball because there is no corner ball wired and more situations of clusters and tied up balls develop. It is a game of cue ball control and precise patterns. If I miss a ball and a hook happens or a tough bank is left you can let me shoot the shot. This game will make that days better player victorious, and not decide a win by luck. This is how Danny D. and I played in Buffalo back when I was a young player in the 70's. We had great matches and after we went out to eat like friends. The wins went back and forth and there was good feeling on the losers part as he knew he got beat by a better player that day.
no luck 10 ball
- Thread starter gulyassy
- Start date
Sorry, but taking two way shots out of 10-ball removes a major element of skill. Two way shots may be the single most interesting aspect of nine and ten ball, and eliminating them to get rid of slop, which is a very minor issue at pro level, is too big a price to pay. In fact, whether it's nine ball, ten ball, or one-pocket, I think much of the majesty of the game is tied up in the fact that offense and defense can be played simulltaneously. Which player is more creative and skillful in doing so has a lot to do wit who the better player is. Why anyone would remove this huge element of skill is beyond me. Pool is far more than pocketing and position.
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It sounds like the emphasis in this game, is that if you say you're gonna make the ball, then that's what you do. And if you say you're gonna safe it, then that's what you do.
Thus in playing, the focus is fully on being committed to doing what you say.
In those other style games that you mention.... Yeah, you have to consider two way shots. It's can be a big positive in those situations where you think you're gonna make it, but when you shoot it you don't. In those style games, it makes sense to play that way...
Sounds like his style of 10 ball has a slightly different focus. And a lot of it based on removing much of the luck factor of the game.
Totally ignoring the points that gulyassy is saying, just so you can have some two way shots, could also be considered too big a price to pay.
Maybe there is some value in both styles of game (I'm also a little cautious because I haven't actually played Gulyassy's style of game, so I can't say for sure whether I like it or not). Regular 9 ball when you want to stress your two-way shots along with the luck factor, and Gulyassy's 10 ball when you want to focus on executing what you commit to... without the sloppy shortcuts.
Thus in playing, the focus is fully on being committed to doing what you say.
In those other style games that you mention.... Yeah, you have to consider two way shots. It's can be a big positive in those situations where you think you're gonna make it, but when you shoot it you don't. In those style games, it makes sense to play that way...
Sounds like his style of 10 ball has a slightly different focus. And a lot of it based on removing much of the luck factor of the game.
Totally ignoring the points that gulyassy is saying, just so you can have some two way shots, could also be considered too big a price to pay.
Maybe there is some value in both styles of game (I'm also a little cautious because I haven't actually played Gulyassy's style of game, so I can't say for sure whether I like it or not). Regular 9 ball when you want to stress your two-way shots along with the luck factor, and Gulyassy's 10 ball when you want to focus on executing what you commit to... without the sloppy shortcuts.
i totally agree.two way shots are great but everyone thinks 10 ball is so great but you know what happens.there is more balls to hook the guy on when you miss thats all.i think the way mike says is a great way to play even if we lose two way shots.gulyassy said:
I must say on thing about the pro level, luck is a large factor in the game. This rule we play about missing balls (on every level) and the incoming player is punished for it is so unfair. I can not think of any other game in sports that produces wins from choking and hooking the opponent. Not only does the person that choked feel like this is his opportunity to change the game back in his favor but it makes the player that comes to the table feel like he might lose now and he did nothing wrong(negative thinking). Every player has played someone that he know he can beat because of one reason or another. The reason is the persons cue ball. We all make the same shots but the players that make the shots and controls their cue ball the best will win, this is what makes him a better player. This is why the Philippines players play so well, it is cue ball control. This is why the better player wins strait pool and one pocket and banks, it is cue ball control. This is why better players can spot weaker players, it is cue ball control. Why is Efren the best, he has the best cue ball.
We have played call shot tournaments and the best players always win. I would like to see pro pool on the level it deserves because it is the hardest game in the world.
We have played call shot tournaments and the best players always win. I would like to see pro pool on the level it deserves because it is the hardest game in the world.
I agree. If 9-ball or 10-ball is to be considered a game of skill, played to determine excellence, then the luck factor must removed as much as possible. The rise in quality by requiring called shots and called safeties in rotation games would far outweigh the occasional benefit of "two way" shots.gulyassy said:
Doc
gulyassy said:
I was really enjoying your points on this post until the statement "hardest game in the world". I love to see posts with an expressed passion for the game, but that statement made me LOL....sorry, just had to comment. Good post though.
All games straight 8, 9-10 ball should be no slop! Spot balls, shoot from the kitchen. 3 fouls and you go back 15 pts in straight pool etc. I know I spent yrs learning how to play position off spot shots. Most people think those words are chinese. The spot shot was like in basketball (free throws).Nine ball is out because of the easy break. (need the diamond rules) Ten ball is better rack. And thank the fools at sardo for letting the game really change all the rules. ( a rack that must spot the nine on the head spot) (womens tour). Some challenge. I like the 7-ball game, 1- push out, and ball in hand when you miss! Thanks mike and J.Schmidt for posting you guys must be thinking of the garbage rolls already for the derby. Good luck at the derby. Shanes been playing around town.And he's coming to start the yr off right. The Angry white man will be missed at this tournement. His spirits are better, he has to write more than read because all they figure you need to learn is the bible. How do the southern states figure a guy is going to return to society, if you can't turn on a light or read a book. This united states is something not 1 state has the same laws concerning incareration. or educating your children in public schools where the school can't afford books let alone a Teacher with major's or minors in the subject they teach. but the kids carry cell phones 6th grade. mark
No luck 9 Ball or 10 Ball
I would like to see 9 or 10 Ball played with ROLL OUT at any time BUT WHOEVER TAKES THE SHOT AFTER A ROLL OUT MUST MAKE THE SHOT OR BALL IN HAND TO YOUR OPPONENT. Call shot and no slop also.
This would bring back great shotmaking that once was in the game and it would be more exciting to watch knowing the player must make the ball when a roll out occurs. This would also allow the "2 way" shot to still be played. This would also penalize the player who got out of line only to play safe.
I would like to see 9 or 10 Ball played with ROLL OUT at any time BUT WHOEVER TAKES THE SHOT AFTER A ROLL OUT MUST MAKE THE SHOT OR BALL IN HAND TO YOUR OPPONENT. Call shot and no slop also.
This would bring back great shotmaking that once was in the game and it would be more exciting to watch knowing the player must make the ball when a roll out occurs. This would also allow the "2 way" shot to still be played. This would also penalize the player who got out of line only to play safe.
TWOFORPOOL said:
The problem with allowing a roll out any time is that you are allowing a roll out by a player that has just made a position error, thereby reducing the penalty for position poorly played, slightly reducing the advantage enjoyed by those who play the best position. It is just another way that a switch to this format would eliminate some of the skill that the Texas Express format requires. Hook yourself today and you really pay a price, and that is as it should be.
Yes, let's get rid of defense, kicking and standard two way shots. And then let's reduce the penalty for position poorly played. And then let's delude ourselves into thinking we have turned the game into something more skillful. Just how many elements of skill must we eliminate to make the game more skillful?
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No luck 10 Ball.
SJM. The real problem with POOR position play is that I see alot of players get out of line while running out only to play safe and win. THATS THE WORST PART OF ONE FOUL BALL IN HAND RULES. Also how many times do you see a player ACCIDENTLY miss only to get lucky and untentionally hook you. At least you could roll and still have a chance to win the game. One more reminder 9/10 BALL IS AN OFFENSIVE GAME. Play one pocket if you want to see an defensive game.
SJM. The real problem with POOR position play is that I see alot of players get out of line while running out only to play safe and win. THATS THE WORST PART OF ONE FOUL BALL IN HAND RULES. Also how many times do you see a player ACCIDENTLY miss only to get lucky and untentionally hook you. At least you could roll and still have a chance to win the game. One more reminder 9/10 BALL IS AN OFFENSIVE GAME. Play one pocket if you want to see an defensive game.
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SJM,sjm said:
It always amazes me when pool players want to rule away luck, it's like their afraid to walk across the street because some truck driver may get lucky and squash your unlucky behind.(sorry for the left field analogy) Bottom line for me is I want to be allowed to take the 'cream of the crop' shot, the one that allows for the optimum possiblity for me to come out a winner. Now if that shot is to ride every ball on the table and give them six chances to go so be it. If that shot is a two wayer so be it. Don't make rules that prohibit the player from making that shot selection. Every player has a different set of odds going on in his brain determined by his own knowledge of his game and his chance of successfully pulling off this shot or that shot. That is one of the intriguing things about 9/10 ball. The game is democratic and that maybe why it is so popular. The rules are nice and simple: hit the lowest # ball on the table, get a rail, and laugh like hell if you get lucky...perfect.
Hey, it's not my fault, you left me that shot...rack'm up
Now that attitude may sound to free and easy to some who wish to legislate luck away but you cannot enact a set of rules, no matter how complicated that will eliminate the luck factor. Tell me that the greatest shot in pool(Efrens z kick) didn't involve luck. The guy who pulled the trigger would admit that. Sure he had knowledge and skill to pull it off but he knew the luck factor was the bigger part. Just because he got lucky doesn't mean it wasn't a great shot.
The better players don't want to rely on luck but they don't want to be denied it either. I'll bet John Schmit wishes he would have been lucky enough to have Danny H give him class on that 10ball he dropped down his pant leg...Sorry John, I couldn't resist....
cheesemouse said:SJM,
It always amazes me when pool players want to rule away luck, it's like their afraid to walk across the street because some truck driver may get lucky and squash your unlucky behind.(sorry for the left field analogy) Bottom line for me is I want to be allowed to take the 'cream of the crop' shot, the one that allows for the optimum possiblity for me to come out a winner. Now if that shot is to ride every ball on the table and give them six chances to go so be it. If that shot is a two wayer so be it. Don't make rules that prohibit the player from making that shot selection. Every player has a different set of odds going on in his brain determined by his own knowledge of his game and his chance of successfully pulling off this shot or that shot. That is one of the intriguing things about 9/10 ball. The game is democratic and that maybe why it is so popular. The rules are nice and simple: hit the lowest # ball on the table, get a rail, and laugh like hell if you get lucky...perfect.
Hey, it's not my fault, you left me that shot...rack'm up
Now that attitude may sound to free and easy to some who wish to legislate luck away but you cannot enact a set of rules, no matter how complicated that will eliminate the luck factor. Tell me that the greatest shot in pool(Efrens z kick) didn't involve luck. The guy who pulled the trigger would admit that. Sure he had knowledge and skill to pull it off but he knew the luck factor was the bigger part. Just because he got lucky doesn't mean it wasn't a great shot.
The better players don't want to rely on luck but they don't want to be denied it either. I'll bet John Schmit wishes he would have been lucky enough to have Danny H give him class on that 10ball he dropped down his pant leg...Sorry John, I couldn't resist....
Tap, tap, tap. An exceptional post.
No Luck 10 Ball
By limiting the "rolls" of the game you are therebye allowing the more skilled player to win more frequently. If you want a lot of luck in a game with some skill required go play "yatzee".
By limiting the "rolls" of the game you are therebye allowing the more skilled player to win more frequently. If you want a lot of luck in a game with some skill required go play "yatzee".
thank you, sir
In all of the major sports, there are rules for amateurs, as well as rules for the higher levels of play. If forced to play these luck defying rules, the amateurs will slowly go away before there is a love developed for the game.
You can't make it too difficult for them to win, but at the same time, promote continued growth with skill building rules with a side of luck. There-in-lies the true challenge.
It never ceases to amaze me how many players seem to look at this from their own perspective exclusively. Many players feel as though their opponent, no matter who it is, gets all the rolls and they get none. At the very least, they feel the rolls go against them far more than they go in favor of them. This is human nature. Should we change the rules just to make it harder on the less advanced players?
I say, we should overcome the small percentage of luck that occurs with better play. If you play perfect all the time and continue to get beat with luck on a regular basis, this may not be the game for you.
Gene
You can't make it too difficult for them to win, but at the same time, promote continued growth with skill building rules with a side of luck. There-in-lies the true challenge.
It never ceases to amaze me how many players seem to look at this from their own perspective exclusively. Many players feel as though their opponent, no matter who it is, gets all the rolls and they get none. At the very least, they feel the rolls go against them far more than they go in favor of them. This is human nature. Should we change the rules just to make it harder on the less advanced players?
I say, we should overcome the small percentage of luck that occurs with better play. If you play perfect all the time and continue to get beat with luck on a regular basis, this may not be the game for you.
Gene
TWOFORPOOL said:
This is all about how you define a skilled player. To me, it's somebody with excellence in pocketing, position play, defensive play, and kicking and an understanding of how these facets of the game are strategically interwoven. To you, seemingly, it's somebody who can make difficult shots and run out.
I guess we're both correct to a point, but you are more than happy to dispense with more than a few skillful aspects of the game because they fall outside of your definition of the skills that should determine the winner. I am not so quick to eliminate them because, to me, doing so reduces the need of players to have a complete skill set, and also, because you rob the game of what I believe to be its most interesting aspects.