X Breaker said:
Yes but...
Allison seems to be "on" about 97% of the time
I think she is the greatest female player of all time. And probably one of the nicest too.
No Wonder Allison and Karen are at the Top....
- Thread starter cuetechasaurus
- Start date
Yes but...
Allison seems to be "on" about 97% of the time
I think she is the greatest female player of all time. And probably one of the nicest too.
The attempt to place women's pro pool in a negative light based on a twenty minute segment of play between the #9 and #24 players in a regional tour event, not even a WPBA event, is ridiculous. Yes, the level of play in this video is poor. So what? We could just as easily produce a twenty minute comedy of errors video of two top men, but why would we?
I once saw Irving Crane miss three times in one match with ball in hand. Thankfully, you didn't show that clip.
I have been attending women's pro pool events since the late 1970's and I have played against most of the top women for many years. The is no denying that Allison and Karen have enjoyed a near monpoly on the WPBA titles since 2000, which is the first year Karen played the tour full time. Still, the seeded players (#1 through #16) all play extremely well.
Jasmin is a wonderful player, but let's not anoint her as having left her peers in the dust as a challenger to the jointly-held throne of Allison and Karen. Ga Young Kim has won each of the last two world championships, and Jasmin was in the field each time. Kelly Fisher has already reached the finals in numerous WPBA events, has two titles to show for it, and is now ranked #3, leaving world women's snooker champions in the top three spots. There's every reason to believe that Kelly Fisher has already emerged as a credible challenger to the top two. Monica Webb is playing wonderful pool these days, too. All these players are long-term threats to challenge for #1. So, for that matter, is WPBA Rookie of the Year Xiaoting Pan, who went 2 - 2 against Allison Fisher in 2006 WPBA play, and one of her two losses was double hill. Pan finished her first full year on tour ranked #13.
No attempt is being made here to place the top women on a par with the top men, but in my opinion, nearly all fo the WPBA Top 16 are "A" players.
Every now and again, we get one of these "let's make fun of women's pool" threads. Nobody who regularly attends WPBA events or plays against the top women will be suckered in by the disappointingly numerous attemtps to make light of the excellent play of the ladies.
I once saw Irving Crane miss three times in one match with ball in hand. Thankfully, you didn't show that clip.
I have been attending women's pro pool events since the late 1970's and I have played against most of the top women for many years. The is no denying that Allison and Karen have enjoyed a near monpoly on the WPBA titles since 2000, which is the first year Karen played the tour full time. Still, the seeded players (#1 through #16) all play extremely well.
Jasmin is a wonderful player, but let's not anoint her as having left her peers in the dust as a challenger to the jointly-held throne of Allison and Karen. Ga Young Kim has won each of the last two world championships, and Jasmin was in the field each time. Kelly Fisher has already reached the finals in numerous WPBA events, has two titles to show for it, and is now ranked #3, leaving world women's snooker champions in the top three spots. There's every reason to believe that Kelly Fisher has already emerged as a credible challenger to the top two. Monica Webb is playing wonderful pool these days, too. All these players are long-term threats to challenge for #1. So, for that matter, is WPBA Rookie of the Year Xiaoting Pan, who went 2 - 2 against Allison Fisher in 2006 WPBA play, and one of her two losses was double hill. Pan finished her first full year on tour ranked #13.
No attempt is being made here to place the top women on a par with the top men, but in my opinion, nearly all fo the WPBA Top 16 are "A" players.
Every now and again, we get one of these "let's make fun of women's pool" threads. Nobody who regularly attends WPBA events or plays against the top women will be suckered in by the disappointingly numerous attemtps to make light of the excellent play of the ladies.
I think i've said this before about the Womens Tour is they need to have everything be Winner Breaks. Even the WPBA stops.
Then you'll see a big difference between the Top 5 / 10 girls and the rest of the pack.
Also Tighten up the pockets.
Then you'll see a big difference between the Top 5 / 10 girls and the rest of the pack.
Also Tighten up the pockets.
StormHotRod300 said:
I agree. I don't like alternate break.
FYI, the pockets were tightened at the beginning of last season. As I've posted before, I saw the IPT Las Vegas event and the WPBA Peoria event on consecutive days and the pockets were tighter at WPBA Peoria. Perhaps this is why the three ladies snooker champions occupy the top three spots in the WPBA rankings. I think it has a lot to do with it.
ribdoner said:
In straight pool, Jean was the best woman player ever. Jasmin Oushcan was 5th in the 2006 Men's world Straight Pool Championship and Jeanette Lee came 9th in the 1999 Straight Pool Championships including wins over John Ervloino, Jim Fusco and Dallas West. Still, Jeanette and Jasmin only get honorable mention here. In straight pool, Jean's the one.
Although I believe that Allison and Karen both play nineball at a level comparable to where Jean played it, I think if they'd been around inthe 70's, they'd have pushed Jean to an even higher level. Nonetheless, Allison's 50+ WPBA nine ball titles gives her my nod as the best ever nine baller among the ladies.
Male Pool Testosterone Gone Wild
Gonads, if all of you can scrape up enough money to get to the DCC, I will back Helena against all you players as I need to make my 2007 Charitable contributions early so I
don't forget. As you are the dominent sex and Helena only plays to a six, she will accept the approprite spot you offer.
In the event Helena has a 6 and under tournament that week, I will also back her friend Monica Webb who only plays to a 5 but gambles as she beat me out of some Orbit gum just last year.
Dababe
Gonads, if all of you can scrape up enough money to get to the DCC, I will back Helena against all you players as I need to make my 2007 Charitable contributions early so I
don't forget. As you are the dominent sex and Helena only plays to a six, she will accept the approprite spot you offer.In the event Helena has a 6 and under tournament that week, I will also back her friend Monica Webb who only plays to a 5 but gambles as she beat me out of some Orbit gum just last year.
Dababe
A couple of comments regarding this thread. This match looks like it was the Finals of some regional event. Watching the play and the attitude of both women leads me to believe that a "deal" has been made, possibly a split of the prize money, and maybe a "gift" of a Tour entry to Tracie. Could this be the case here. I see a noticeable lack of effort.
I have watched Helena torture a few guys in the past, so she isn't any slouch at 9-Ball. And her break can be awesome at times. Granted she seems to have slipped in recent times, no longer a threat to win on the WPBT apparently.
Allison and Karen have been the dominant duo for years on the WPBT, and for good reason. They are the two best players! Duh! But there are women today who can challenge them and beat them on occasion. Take a look at this years results. Kelly Fisher and Ga Young Kim both are quite capable of winning a title, and have. Jeanette still plays real good, consider her showing when she meets the guys anywhere.
And then there's Jasmin. She may be the best women 9-Ball player right now. Let her play all year, and see who wins the most titles. She has the biggest game that I see out there. Allison and Karen both know how to win though, and won't give up easily. P.S. They like winning, and the perks that go with it, like $$$.
Now for the matter of how good Jean Balukas played. DAMN GOOD! Better than Allison or Karen? I'm not sure. What I have often said is that if Jean played today, she would NOT be the dominant player she was 20 years ago. Too many strong women players today. But she would be competitive with the best (Allison and Karen) and win her share of tournaments. '
Jean had a winner's heart, and a powerful stroke like Jasmin. She was all business out there, and didn't look up till she crossed the goal line. Get it! And did manage to cross that goal line SIXTEEN tournaments in a row. Granted with weaker fields by far. But she played in the heyday of Lori Shampo (who may have been as strong as Jasmin, but drug afflicted), Gerry Titcomb, Robin Bell, Mary Kenniston, Ewa Mataya, Loree Jon and Belinda. Trust me, they could all play, just not as good as Allison or Karen.
Jean was so dominant that she sought to challenge the men. And it's true some guys didn't handle her presence well. At least a few flat refused to play her (cowards!). I think some guys were embarassed by the thought of losing to a woman. Nowadays, thanks mostly to Jeanette and Karen, it isn't news anymore.
Jean played maybe a dozen men's events all told. Several others she tried to enter and was refused entry. Her top finish in an Open 9-Ball tournament against the top men was 13-16th. And that is in a field of 64 strong players. She won matches against reigning U.S. Open Champ Mike Lebron, a young and strong Keith McCready, Steve Mizerak! (yes, that Steve!) and some guy called Buddy! TRUE! She beat Buddy Hall a Race To Eleven in his prime. I also remember some close matches with Jim Rempe and David Howard. Not sure if she won though.
There were others too, and in the regional 14.1 tourneys around NYC, no one wanted to draw her. She may have been the best women Straight Pool player ever. She could hit you with a 100! Many of the top East Coast guys felt her sting.
I often felt that if Jean continued to play in the Men's events, she might eventually win one. She was getting better and more comfortable when she hung it all up. Burned out on Pool at age 29. Remember though, she had been playing constantly since age 4. She was tired of it all. One last thing I must add. For those of you that didn't meet her or know her, JEAN BALUKAS WAS (and IS) A CLASS ACT! Intelligent, soft spoken with the will to excell.
In some ways, a fitting predecessor to Allison, who is also ALL CLASS!
I have watched Helena torture a few guys in the past, so she isn't any slouch at 9-Ball. And her break can be awesome at times. Granted she seems to have slipped in recent times, no longer a threat to win on the WPBT apparently.
Allison and Karen have been the dominant duo for years on the WPBT, and for good reason. They are the two best players! Duh! But there are women today who can challenge them and beat them on occasion. Take a look at this years results. Kelly Fisher and Ga Young Kim both are quite capable of winning a title, and have. Jeanette still plays real good, consider her showing when she meets the guys anywhere.
And then there's Jasmin. She may be the best women 9-Ball player right now. Let her play all year, and see who wins the most titles. She has the biggest game that I see out there. Allison and Karen both know how to win though, and won't give up easily. P.S. They like winning, and the perks that go with it, like $$$.
Now for the matter of how good Jean Balukas played. DAMN GOOD! Better than Allison or Karen? I'm not sure. What I have often said is that if Jean played today, she would NOT be the dominant player she was 20 years ago. Too many strong women players today. But she would be competitive with the best (Allison and Karen) and win her share of tournaments. '
Jean had a winner's heart, and a powerful stroke like Jasmin. She was all business out there, and didn't look up till she crossed the goal line. Get it! And did manage to cross that goal line SIXTEEN tournaments in a row. Granted with weaker fields by far. But she played in the heyday of Lori Shampo (who may have been as strong as Jasmin, but drug afflicted), Gerry Titcomb, Robin Bell, Mary Kenniston, Ewa Mataya, Loree Jon and Belinda. Trust me, they could all play, just not as good as Allison or Karen.
Jean was so dominant that she sought to challenge the men. And it's true some guys didn't handle her presence well. At least a few flat refused to play her (cowards!). I think some guys were embarassed by the thought of losing to a woman. Nowadays, thanks mostly to Jeanette and Karen, it isn't news anymore.
Jean played maybe a dozen men's events all told. Several others she tried to enter and was refused entry. Her top finish in an Open 9-Ball tournament against the top men was 13-16th. And that is in a field of 64 strong players. She won matches against reigning U.S. Open Champ Mike Lebron, a young and strong Keith McCready, Steve Mizerak! (yes, that Steve!) and some guy called Buddy! TRUE! She beat Buddy Hall a Race To Eleven in his prime. I also remember some close matches with Jim Rempe and David Howard. Not sure if she won though.
There were others too, and in the regional 14.1 tourneys around NYC, no one wanted to draw her. She may have been the best women Straight Pool player ever. She could hit you with a 100! Many of the top East Coast guys felt her sting.
I often felt that if Jean continued to play in the Men's events, she might eventually win one. She was getting better and more comfortable when she hung it all up. Burned out on Pool at age 29. Remember though, she had been playing constantly since age 4. She was tired of it all. One last thing I must add. For those of you that didn't meet her or know her, JEAN BALUKAS WAS (and IS) A CLASS ACT! Intelligent, soft spoken with the will to excell.
In some ways, a fitting predecessor to Allison, who is also ALL CLASS!
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jay helfert said:
Loved your post, Jay, but need to address this one point. Neither was eligible for the qualifier spot, as each of them are WPBA touring pros, already exempt into every WPBA field. Though a split is possible, it seems unlikely, as one must presume that Helena would have thought herself a big favorite over the far lower ranked Hines. I feel the match was on the level.
when i try to watch all i get is a black screen
sjm said:
Maybe? And maybe not? I liked your post above about Jean's 14.1 game. I agree, she was the best.
I seriously doubt they would split the winnings in the finals. Each player has a good and bad day, and sometimes one player playing bad can cause the other to play worst.
Also, pressure can do funny things to everyone.
I have seen Helena shot the light out. If I have my facts correctly, she was the first European player coming over to the USA, and she was beating everybody on the tour back then. In my book, Helena was, and still is, one of the top players on the WPBA tour.
Also, pressure can do funny things to everyone.
I have seen Helena shot the light out. If I have my facts correctly, she was the first European player coming over to the USA, and she was beating everybody on the tour back then. In my book, Helena was, and still is, one of the top players on the WPBA tour.
sjm said:
Plus an US Open, to which she was runner up the year before...as well as a Challenge of Champions where she beat both Allison and Karen.
I think that getting rid of alternate breaks will benefit Ga Young. She's gone so far with her talent, a bit more mental discipline could push her consistency into the realm of Fisher/Corr, imo.
-Roger
Uhmmm 1 question. As the level looks a little bit like mine on a good day... i
was very capable of watching the whole match. What a slow cloth by the way! How did the score go from 6-2 to 7-1!
I saw somebody mentioning that JB beated 3 men in a row in a mens tournament. No way i'm intending to put down her game here ( because credit to people how are suppose to get it)., but in the last year i saw 3 women do exactly the same and even 4 matches in a row at the Eurotour for men. It were no smalls names going down.... Brian Beekers ( 5th on the last eurotour)... Daryl Peach ( no introduction necessary).. Bruno Muratori ( always last 32 in eurotour)...
If there would be 1 reason to come over to the states it's to see the women like Allison, Gerda and Karen play over there...unfortunatly they do not play over here anymore..
And in defends of all good women players! I would love to see Mei Lin, Karen, Allison, Jasmin, and Gay young Kim, take on any men team you have to offer....... As a matter of fact: Bring on any men team against: Line, Jasmin, Gerda, Allison and Karen...
This will be the format:
Morning session:
Scottisch double: Jasmin and Line
Straight: Jasmin
8-ball: Line
8-ball: Gerda
9-ball: Allison
9-ball: Karen
Afternoon session
Scottisch double: Gerda and Allison
Straight: Jasmin
8-ball: Allison
8-ball: Karen
9-ball: Line
9-ball: Gerda
Bring it on: And i will i love to back the women.. I'll put a thousand dollars on it! If some of you do the same we may have an actual game on our hands! There's only 1 condition... it has to be played in europe ( i hate flying)......
was very capable of watching the whole match. What a slow cloth by the way! How did the score go from 6-2 to 7-1!
I saw somebody mentioning that JB beated 3 men in a row in a mens tournament. No way i'm intending to put down her game here ( because credit to people how are suppose to get it)., but in the last year i saw 3 women do exactly the same and even 4 matches in a row at the Eurotour for men. It were no smalls names going down.... Brian Beekers ( 5th on the last eurotour)... Daryl Peach ( no introduction necessary).. Bruno Muratori ( always last 32 in eurotour)...
If there would be 1 reason to come over to the states it's to see the women like Allison, Gerda and Karen play over there...unfortunatly they do not play over here anymore..
And in defends of all good women players! I would love to see Mei Lin, Karen, Allison, Jasmin, and Gay young Kim, take on any men team you have to offer....... As a matter of fact: Bring on any men team against: Line, Jasmin, Gerda, Allison and Karen...
This will be the format:
Morning session:
Scottisch double: Jasmin and Line
Straight: Jasmin
8-ball: Line
8-ball: Gerda
9-ball: Allison
9-ball: Karen
Afternoon session
Scottisch double: Gerda and Allison
Straight: Jasmin
8-ball: Allison
8-ball: Karen
9-ball: Line
9-ball: Gerda
Bring it on: And i will i love to back the women.. I'll put a thousand dollars on it! If some of you do the same we may have an actual game on our hands! There's only 1 condition... it has to be played in europe ( i hate flying)......
cuetechasaurus said:
I have 3 things to say about your post:
1 - Glass houses.
2 - What drives you to believe that gambling is the only way to improve your game? There are numerous male pros who do not gamble and play at a very high level. You're assumption pigeon-holes professional pool players as gamblers, and that is certainly not the case for all male pros, nor does it make a person a better player.
3 - As far as women vs. men, there is a numbers game that you are not recognizing. For every 1 woman that takes up pool seriously, there are about 100 men that do as well. When the pool of players for each gender is that wide apart, you must concede to the simple fact of percentages. The percentage of top level female players to top level male players is incredibly disproportionate. And therefore, you have the scenario of today's pool scene and the disparity between male and female players. There is a female version of Efren out there, she just doesn't know it and probably has no interest in pool because of ignorant minds such as yourself.
You seem to have an issue with this video and the level of play in it. If it bothers you that much, then don't watch it. But who are you to judge and criticize their games? It's always easier to sit back and be an armchair quarterback instead of putting yourself out there, isn't it? Your post is nothing but negative and construes a degrading view upon women pool players.
BigCat said:
The point of my post was that I think that if they change the way they play, they can play as good as the men. I *WANT* to see that happen. You didn't understand my point obviously.
I have watched alot of women's matches, some live, some on TV, and some on tape unedited. The truth is, they don't hold a candle to the men. Not even close. Telling it like it is does not make it seem like I am degrading them. It's the obvious truth if you open your eyes and watch these tournaments. Allison and Karen play great, but they can get tremendous weight from the top Filipino players, and they don't have to like it.
And yes, gambling does improve your game. I think you might be alone on a desert island on this one, if you make that assumption against any real strong player. 99.99% of all the great players gamble. There are different types of pressures playing in tournaments and playing for money. Ask anyone. You are way off on your assumptions dude.
And who am I to judge their games? I'm a poolplayer that loves the game and knows good pool when I see it. ding ding ding ding! we have a winner!