Non-CNC Current Cuemakers

kvinbrwr

kvinbrwr

Skee Ball Monster Playa
Gold Member
I've been told that Barry Szamboti makes cues using the same tools that his father did and that he doesn't have a CNC machine. Barry's cues look to me to be more precise and his Dad's work looks somehow, more "hand made". Is it just my imagination or is it the disparity in the ages of the cues that I think I'm seeing? or, as usual, something I don't understand?

I know current Ginas are CNC made and I assumed that the current fancy Tads were CNC but the owner of a current $6K Tad was telling me last night very emphatically that Tad didn't use a CNC machine either.

I have 2 Scruggs here and they have to be CNC, I'm sure the Richard Black I had had CNC work? What about fancy Motteys?

What about the current hi value custom cuemakers? Who is CNC and who is "non" and what effect do you feel the machine has on value?

Kevin
 
kvinbrwr said:
...what effect do you feel the machine has on value?

Kevin
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I'm not sure it should have any effect ... if it did then what effect would a pantograph have on the value ? A milling machine ? A lathe ? An exactro-knife ? They are all just tools used to cut things, imo.

Dave
 
DaveK said:
I'm not sure it should have any effect ... if it did then what effect would a pantograph have on the value ? A milling machine ? A lathe ? An exactro-knife ? They are all just tools used to cut things, imo.

Dave
Click to expand...

Dave

I hear you for sure but I'm wondering at what point in mechanization does a "custom" become a "production" cue?

Do you feel that an early (non-CNC) fancy Gina would have the same value as one of Ernie's more current models? For, me, all other factors being the same, I would more value the older stick.

Kevin
 
DaveK said:
I'm not sure it should have any effect ... if it did then what effect would a pantograph have on the value ? A milling machine ? A lathe ? An exactro-knife ? They are all just tools used to cut things, imo.

Dave
Click to expand...

I agree, in principal, as long as you can't tell on sight. I have a Paul Dayton cue with 4 points and 4 veneers. In each point there is an ivory inlaid diamond, and there are 4 more slightly larger ivory diamonds in the butt area. Paul used to do these strictly with the exacto knife, and now he's using the CNC machine, but I believe he hand sharpens them. If those diamonds were rounded at the points I'd be unhappy. If those veneers didn't come to a long razor sharp ending, I would have been disappointed. Although Paul is using a CNC machine now, he still takes the time to make sure his work is of the same quality. IMHO, that makes it acceptable to me...Tom
 
If a true 'master craftman' was using a CNC , you would never know it I promise you.

Complete 'handmade' is almost always going to be less precise on some level , one you may not be able to see with the naked eye but still none the less.

Here's the question : What's the difference between using a Pantograph ( a staple in the cue building business) and a CNC ?

I own and run CNCs as well as consider myself a 'master craftsman' (not in cue biulding :) ) and am often amazed at the bridge people want to place between a man and his tools.

The final product is the only true measure of construction that matters. ;)

And no , Nitti doesn't not use CNC but he , as many many do , use CNC cut patterns for his pantograph. ;)
 
well, i know that Rick Howard is still making them without the CNC machine... but he's looking into one as we speak though.
 
I think as long as the quality is there the machine the cue maker uses is a non issue.

To me it is about playability, I like the fancy cues as much as anyone, but they wont aid in performance, so to me nice to have but not a nessesity..

when we are buying the fancy cues, its like buying artwork, look at custom paint for your hot rod for instance, there is some hands on, so I say even if the inlays are made by using a CNC machine, if they are finished by hand to me they are still hand crafted in a sense.

Ofcourse I have my opinion, you may have a differnt one, I want performance, if you can give me that I dont care what you use, but please dont expect me to pay top dollar for a hand crafted cue with rounded points. Finish them by hand, give us those sharp points and there shouldnt be any issues. Thats what I think people are saying, and I agree.

SPINDOKTOR
 
Tony_in_MD said:
Tim Scruggs does not use CNC.
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Wow. Thanks for that. I've got a Scruggs with floating points and ivory work in the points that is so precise that I assumed it had to be CNC.

Kevin
 
kvinbrwr said:
Wow. Thanks for that. I've got a Scruggs with floating points and ivory work in the points that is so precise that I assumed it had to be CNC.

Kevin
Click to expand...


I don't believe that Searing or Tascarella use CNC either. Marcus could probably verify that.
 
I've toured Barry's shop. He does in fact use his Dad's equipment, most of which is Craftsman from Sears. No CNC.
 
Deadon said:
I don't believe that Searing or Tascarella use CNC either. Marcus could probably verify that.
Click to expand...

You are certainly correct, neither use CNC, along with Bill Schick and Ron Hailey.

I know this will cause a shit storm, but I think this is where you must draw the line between a Great cue maker, and Master Craftsman. I think the Master Craftsman can do with his hands what others need additional machinery for. These cue makers continue to use traditional methods for construction, and in addition some will still only use traditional adhesives.

Without the aid of CNC machinery, many cue makers today would be lost. Many use CNC machinery to turn their Butts, make thier rings, turn thier shafts, and to complete all phases of cue making except for the actual assembly of the parts. Not I am not saying that cues made this way are defective, or even that they do not play well, however, should they be worth as much.

What constitutes the title Master Craftsman?

Should a perfectly made item be worth as much as one made with minimal machinery by hand?

What are you paying for?

How much should man hour's of construction effect the price?

How much should design effect the cues price?

Other than name, what separates the high end Asian Import cues from the high end CNC machinery made cues in the USA, if the same quality of materials are used?

If CNC machinery was not in use today, how many of current cues makers would disappear, and why?

These are questions I have asked myself many times, and I suspect that to answer these questions without Bias should help anyone make decisions when buying collector cues for future appreciation.

Just my thoughts, no disrespect intended to anyone!!!!!
 
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manwon said:
You are certainly correct, neither use CNC, along with Bill Schick and Ron Hailey.

I know this will cause a shit storm, but I think this is where you must draw the line between a Great cue maker, and Master Craftsman. I think the Master Craftsman can do with his hands what others need additional machinery for. These cue makers continue to use traditional methods for construction, and in addition some will still only use traditional adhesives.

Without the aid of NCC machinery, many cue makers today would be lost. Many use NCC machinery to turn their Butts, make thier rings, turn thier shafts, and to complete all phases of cue making except for the actual assembly of the parts. Not I am not saying that cues made this way are defective, or even that they do not play well, however, should they be worth as much.

What constitutes the title Master Craftsman?

Should a perfectly made item be worth as much as one made with minimal machinery by hand?

What are you paying for?

How much should man hour's of construction effect the price?

How much should design effect the cues price?

Other than name, what separates the high end Asian Import cues from the high end NCC machinery made cues in the USA, if the same quality of materials are used?

If NCC machinery was not in use today, how many of current cues makers would disappear, and why?

These are questions I have asked myself many times, and I suspect that to answer these questions without Bias should help anyone make decisions when buying collector cues for future appreciation.

Just my thoughts, no disrespect intended to anyone!!!!!
Click to expand...
You just spilled a bucket of worms.
Opened a Pandora's box.
Here come the floodgates.
 
kvinbrwr said:
I've been told that Barry Szamboti makes cues using the same tools that his father did and that he doesn't have a CNC machine. Barry's cues look to me to be more precise and his Dad's work looks somehow, more "hand made". Is it just my imagination or is it the disparity in the ages of the cues that I think I'm seeing? or, as usual, something I don't understand?

I know current Ginas are CNC made and I assumed that the current fancy Tads were CNC but the owner of a current $6K Tad was telling me last night very emphatically that Tad didn't use a CNC machine either.

I have 2 Scruggs here and they have to be CNC, I'm sure the Richard Black I had had CNC work? What about fancy Motteys?

What about the current hi value custom cuemakers? Who is CNC and who is "non" and what effect do you feel the machine has on value?

Kevin
Click to expand...
He cuts his points while the woods are square.
Uses compound saws.
Uses manual pantograph to do inlays from the patterns/templates his father used.
 
JoeyInCali said:
You just spilled a bucket of worms.
Opened a Pandora's box.
Here come the floodgates.
Click to expand...

Sometimes things need to be said, and everyone is entitled to thier own opinion!!!!;)
 
a9ballbr8k said:
I think joey was just kidding/joking with you manwon
Click to expand...

I know he was, however, this subject can cause some others to become pretty unhappy!!!!;)
 
Dave Bollman does not use CNC or pantograph. His short-spliced forearms are done by his hands alone and he does a very good job. They don't have the perfection of Mottey or Scruggs points with veneers but they also don't come with the gorssly exaggerated price tag either. I have two of his cues and they are as well made (in some cases better made) that many of my other cues that are made by world class cue makers. By far the best cues for the money.
 
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