His short-spliced forearms are done by his hands alone and he does a very good job.
His fingernails must be all broken by now.
His fingernails must be all broken by now.
Non-CNC Current Cuemakers
- Thread starter kvinbrwr
- Start date
kvinbrwr said:
Kevin meet skins......skins, Kevin.
In many ways, Kevin, I agree with you, but more and more today's buyers seem to be paying higher money for the newest CNC produced stuff. In general, the new Ginas pull bigger money than the old ones....simple fact. I have not seen older Tads pulling more than newer ones. Same with some others. Overall, the real market for desirable the old cues has shrunk IMO over the last 6-7 years significantly. More buyers have clearly now gravitated towards the new stuff, abandoning the old.
My opinion has not changed regarding CNC. Although I totally respect all the fancy stuff that the these guys are doing nowadays with a high dollar CNC set-up....it all beautiful, really....but I would much rather have a cue where inlays are cut on a manual pantograph any day of the week and twice on Sunday (Barry, Andy Gilbert, and some others currently). With CNC, imo there is no excuse for laziness (rounded diamonds) and mistakes....that set up is supposed to make things easier on you. When I see mistakes in a CNC made cue, it bothers me much more than something that was controlled by a man's actions and his own handiwork.
That being said, the mechanization doesn't have anything to do with "custom" vs. "production". It's just two different means of getting to the result. One obviously has some limitations with inlay designs, while the other really allows you to stretch the boundaries of designs and automate most any aspect of making cues.
To me what would be a more interesting debate everyone's perceptions of "custom" vs. "production" when you speak of makers who don't want to deviate from a standard line of cues....ala Ginacue and McDaniel. The argument could be made that many of the $4k-$k Ginas are just standard line cues and therefore "production". I'm sure that some people might take offense to that, but it's something I have heard suggested before....maybe warrants its own thread.
Just my opinion....I'm sure others have theirs.
I'm sure skins will give you his answer about CNC, if he hasn't already.
Mike Johnson who makes the Jensen cue does not use a CNC. He has been in the cue making industry for years and several well known players(especially from the south) play with his cues.
I am not really sure if you could buy him one to get him to use it.
IMO
Peace
Todd
I always will love a JENSEN!
I am not really sure if you could buy him one to get him to use it.
IMOPeace
Todd
I always will love a JENSEN!
I'm sure skins will give you his answer about CNC, if he hasn't already.
Skins is milling his response right now.
Joey~Will stay out of this one~
Skins is milling his response right now.
Joey~Will stay out of this one~
cueaddicts said:Kevin meet skins......skins, Kevin.
In many ways, Kevin, I agree with you, but more and more today's buyers seem to be paying higher money for the newest CNC produced stuff. In general, the new Ginas pull bigger money than the old ones....simple fact. I have not seen older Tads pulling more than newer ones. Same with some others. Overall, the real market for desirable the old cues has shrunk IMO over the last 6-7 years significantly. More buyers have clearly now gravitated towards the new stuff, abandoning the old.
My opinion has not changed regarding CNC. Although I totally respect all the fancy stuff that the these guys are doing nowadays with a high dollar CNC set-up....it all beautiful, really....but I would much rather have a cue where inlays are cut on a manual pantograph any day of the week and twice on Sunday (Barry, Andy Gilbert, and some others currently). With CNC, imo there is no excuse for laziness (rounded diamonds) and mistakes....that set up is supposed to make things easier on you. When I see mistakes in a CNC made cue, it bothers me much more than something that was controlled by a man's actions and his own handiwork.
That being said, the mechanization doesn't have anything to do with "custom" vs. "production". It's just two different means of getting to the result. One obviously has some limitations with inlay designs, while the other really allows you to stretch the boundaries of designs and automate most any aspect of making cues.
To me what would be a more interesting debate everyone's perceptions of "custom" vs. "production" when you speak of makers who don't want to deviate from a standard line of cues....ala Ginacue and McDaniel. The argument could be made that many of the $4k-$k Ginas are just standard line cues and therefore "production". I'm sure that some people might take offense to that, but it's something I have heard suggested before....maybe warrants its own thread.
Just my opinion....I'm sure others have theirs.
I'm sure skins will give you his answer about CNC, if he hasn't already.
In many ways, Kevin, I agree with you, but more and more today's buyers seem to be paying higher money for the newest CNC produced stuff.
This I also agree with, but the same people you are talking about may not all understand exactly what they are buying. I also believe that long term these items will not hold their value due to the quantities being produced, and cycles that all markets go through.
I also believe that John Burton is correct when he said that in near future the imports will be as good as the American Made products due to CNC technology. It is really only a question of using quality materials, at this point, because the Asian programmer's can do anything the programmers here can due. So the only thing that sets imports and other CNC machined cues apart at this time is the quality of materials and construction techniques used, OH!!!!! and a name
Then how will these products fair, I truly wonder!!!!!! I think it will be very interesting to wait and see!!!!
manwon said:
Surely you are saying this in jest. You actually believe because a person builds something by hand then it should be more valuable than one built with modern equipment to exacting specifications? You are saying that since a person has no modern equipment, or no knowledge on how to use the modern equipment should be rewarded for being slow and inefficient. What tools do you deem as suitable and still be "Hand crafted"? If I lay 1000 cues in front of you could you, 500 Panto milled and 500 CNC'd, would you bet your daughters life that you could tell the difference between any of them? After all, they both use the exact same tooling. About the only difference is that when a Panto mill is used you are stuck with what patterns you have on hand after having them made on a CNC. If I wanted to, I could make 500 cues, with nothing but diamond inlays and no two diamonds being the same. Is that what you call cookie cutter cues or is it someone with a panto mill who may have 6 or 8 different diamonds that must be used over and over. You do realize that in the early seventies, all of the old time cue makers thought it blasphemous that the newer cue makers were using a Panto mill instead of just knives and chisels.
Apparently, you don't know very much about How CNC operates or I don't believe you would be expounding on how easy it is to set up and use. What you are saying is that precision and quality are two different species where I say you can't have quality without precision.
Dick
rhncue said:
First of all Dick you said:
Surely you are saying this in jest. You actually believe because a person builds something by hand then it should be more valuable than one built with modern equipment to exacting specifications? You are saying that since a person has no modern equipment, or no knowledge on how to use the modern equipment should be rewarded for being slow and inefficient.
Dick what I am saying is what stops the Asian imports from being just as good other than materials and construction. They certainly have the technology to do everything you have outlined above. So why then, shouldn't the Asian cues be as valuable as those made in America by your statement above.
Next I have never said that inefficient, sloppy, or poor craftsmanship should be rewarded. However, sometimes taking ones time and doing things slowly can certainly produce a very high quality product, and why is someone inefficient if they choose to work with minimal tools to produce and outstanding product slowly.
By the way Dick, would you call the cue in this thread inefficient, sloppy, or non-percise, and while the design can be copied using CNC machinery which work should be more valubale? http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=80982
What tools do you deem as suitable and still be "Hand crafted"?
Dick that depends on the individual, to me a couple of Lathes modified to suit the my needs. A nice drill press, a couple of nice belt sanders, a band saw, a couple of table saws, a manual pantograph, a jointer, a high quality set of chisels, a high quality Exacto knife set, and many other items.
If I lay 1000 cues in front of you could you, 500 Panto milled and 500 CNC'd, would you bet your daughters life that you could tell the difference between any of them?
It really makes no difference at all whether, I could tell one from another and that is not the point. As I stated before quality is quality and cues being made either way can be pieces of shit. That is where craftsmanship comes into the picture, and this is where knowing what you are buying and from who, is very important.
Apparently, you don't know very much about How CNC operates or I don't believe you would be expounding on how easy it is to set up and use. What you are saying is that precision and quality are two different species where I say you can't have quality without precision.
On this I would totally disagree with you. First of all, everything you need to operate CNC Machinery can be purchased very easily today. The programs, the patterns for your inlays, along with the machines needed to accomplish your tasks. An individuals knowledge can be very limited when everything is just a question of money. Now since we have identified, that precision is necessary to accomplish many phases of cue making, and we have identified that with this machinery we can achieve these results. What separates this technology from mass production? I mean, you can exactly reproduce each design exactly over and over again with precision which is the exact goal of mass production which defined means( To reproduce many objects to precise standards while producing a quality product, as quickly as possible) So where will craftsmanship end and mass production begin, and what will mass production do to the current collectable cue market, will everything become a production cue? Answer this question Dick if you answer nothing else!!
Dick, in certain ways I completely agree with you, and in others I disagree, time will tell who is right, through future prices of cues made both ways.
No disrespect intended to anyone, this my opinion which I am just as entitled to as anyone else.
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cueaddicts said:Kevin meet skins......skins, Kevin.
In many ways, Kevin, I agree with you, but more and more today's buyers seem to be paying higher money for the newest CNC produced stuff. In general, the new Ginas pull bigger money than the old ones....simple fact. I have not seen older Tads pulling more than newer ones. Same with some others. Overall, the real market for desirable the old cues has shrunk IMO over the last 6-7 years significantly. More buyers have clearly now gravitated towards the new stuff, abandoning the old.
My opinion has not changed regarding CNC. Although I totally respect all the fancy stuff that the these guys are doing nowadays with a high dollar CNC set-up....it all beautiful, really....but I would much rather have a cue where inlays are cut on a manual pantograph any day of the week and twice on Sunday (Barry, Andy Gilbert, and some others currently). With CNC, imo there is no excuse for laziness (rounded diamonds) and mistakes....that set up is supposed to make things easier on you. When I see mistakes in a CNC made cue, it bothers me much more than something that was controlled by a man's actions and his own handiwork.
That being said, the mechanization doesn't have anything to do with "custom" vs. "production". It's just two different means of getting to the result. One obviously has some limitations with inlay designs, while the other really allows you to stretch the boundaries of designs and automate most any aspect of making cues.
To me what would be a more interesting debate everyone's perceptions of "custom" vs. "production" when you speak of makers who don't want to deviate from a standard line of cues....ala Ginacue and McDaniel. The argument could be made that many of the $4k-$k Ginas are just standard line cues and therefore "production". I'm sure that some people might take offense to that, but it's something I have heard suggested before....maybe warrants its own thread.
Just my opinion....I'm sure others have theirs.
I'm sure skins will give you his answer about CNC, if he hasn't already.
I don't have Skins response as of yet and I'm of course looking forward to it. I think that maybe the reason the newer fancier CNC Ginas, and (are you saying Tad is CNC??) Tads do so well is that "fancy" is what works for collectors and dealers, and post-CNC there are just more fancy cues available? I haven't seen that many fancy old Ginas or Tads, it seems, in general, the older the cue, the simpler the cue. I know what you are saying about the production aspect when the line is standardized, I think of Palmers (which I love) a little that way although they were all "hand made".
Kevin
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JoeyInCali said:
Right, Barry is building his cues in the methods and traditions of his father who was quite possibly the world's greatest cue maker ever. He may not be "rejecting" the CNC machine as much as respecting and carrying on a great tradition. Cool motivation if you ask me. Like the craftsman of old, a tradition of pride of workmanship. Doing it the old fashioned way, the slow way, the quality way, the right way.
Are some spliced cues not spliced when the woods are square? I thought they were all cut and veneer laid when they were square, glued together (maybe there's a tenon in their someplace) and turned on a lathe?
Kevin
manwon said:In many ways, Kevin, I agree with you, but more and more today's buyers seem to be paying higher money for the newest CNC produced stuff.
This I also agree with, but the same people you are talking about may not all understand exactly what they are buying. I also believe that long term these items will not hold their value due to the quantities being produced, and cycles that all markets go through.
I also believe that John Burton is correct when he said that in near future the imports will be as good as the American Made products due to CNC technology. It is really only a question of using quality materials, at this point, because the Asian programmer's can do anything the programmers here can due. So the only thing that sets imports and other CNC machined cues apart at this time is the quality of materials and construction techniques used, OH!!!!! and a name
Then how will these products fair, I truly wonder!!!!!! I think it will be very interesting to wait and see!!!!
I agree with you. I don't know that much about cues, but in most ways cues seem to follow the rules of most collectibles, and almost completely across the board in all forms of collectible items, it is the older-fashioned variation that best maintains value and gains appreciation. My mom's 50K 2007 Cadiliac is very fancy and drives great and plenty of people buy them, but if you want to talk about what Caddy will "do best" 10 years from now, I think my money would be on the original 1956 Cad I saw bring 50K at auction last week.
Kevin
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I have to put my money on "handcrafted" as some people call it. Only because I come from a long long line of woodwork craftsmen. To me automation is a good thing in some instances but in some cases another trade or tradition disappears due to this. Nowadays most people that are good with their hands, have a bunch of money to burn, some time, and some instruction, can start turning cues. To me a "Master Craftsman" is something different. This is someone who takes a lifetime achieving a talent most of us only dream about. Now I am not thrashing anyone because they use automation they cannot create a work of art. There are many many examples out there. I just personally believe that something, a cue for example, that has been handmade, with hand tools, takes more time to make sure it is right, is worth more in not only monetary value, but in the owner knowing someone left a little bit of themselves for others to enjoy.
manwon said:
Your last phrase is exactly the one that I don't agree with you on. With the use of a Panto mill you are limited to the inlays that can be incorporated into your designs by the templates that you have purchased from someone probably made on a CNC. With the use of CNC a person could make a million cues and no two ever the same. Now tell me, which is the production cue? You say your basic tools to build a cue contain a Panto mill. I say, anyone who uses a panto mill is absolutely no different than a person operating a CNC except that he is both slower and can't be as creative.
I care less where a cue is built. If a cue is made in Timbuktu with the same quality as one made in Chicago, why shouldn't it be worth the same. There are some cue makers cues, that are much more valuable than another identical cue, just because of the name. I can't help that as that's from buyers whims. Some cue makers, because of a history of building fine cues, will have a following and their product will command more money. So be it.
Dick
kvinbrwr said:
Kevin today many types of points are used, you have inlayed points, V cut or V Spliced points, Pano-points, floating points, and fully spliced points such as those used in the Brunswick Titlist. All the point types mentioned above with the exception of the Titlist points are technically inlayed points. The difference being that the Brunswick Titlist points or fully spliced points start as a square block of wood. In four point cues such as these the point at 0 degrees and the point at 180 degrees fully connect in there center, along with the points at 90 degrees and 270 degrees.
Today, many people explain fully spliced points as those in a house cue. This was true in years past, however today, even the house cue points are being inlayed. You can basically tell, by the bottom of the points, if they are square, they are machine madee not truly full spliced, if they are pointed they are made using similar methods to the Titlists which are considered Full Spliced.
The other point designs use in most cases what is known as at V-grove at the above locations, and the points, along with the veneer's are basically inlayed into the groves. These type of points can be cut into a square piece of wood, however they would be much harder to gage, so in many cases these points are cut into a forearm that is already tapered. The forearm is over sized so that perfect alinement of points can be accomplished by turning, however, with cut points this is not always necessary depending on how good a persons gigs are.
I hope this helps
rhncue said:
Dick cue makers have been making templates, before pantograph's or CNC machinery were ever invented. Anyone can make Templates for their pantograph if they chose to do it. In days past cue makers would make a design in wood, and use that as their template, nothing says they have to be in steel.
Dick, while you do not care where, who, or how a cue is made many buyers do. Unfortunately they are the only ones who matter, and they are also the ones who deserve to know how what they are buying is made.
In todays market, this is not always the case, and some individuals portray their cues as something that they are not. I believe that anyone should build their cues the way they want to, however, I also think that there should be no deception as to the techniques used. I mean let the buyer decide, in the long run, these decisions can greatly effect the value of collectible cues, and why should there be any secrets.
Have a nice night Dick, we can agree to disagree that is what opinions are, and nothing more.
Non-CNC Current Cuemakers..?
Well, at least John Parris must qualify:
http://www.parris-cues.co.uk/gallerypics/wk5.jpeg
http://www.parris-cues.co.uk/gallerypics/wk3.jpeg
http://www.parris-cues.co.uk/gallerypics/wk2.jpeg
-- peer
Well, at least John Parris must qualify:
http://www.parris-cues.co.uk/gallerypics/wk5.jpeg
http://www.parris-cues.co.uk/gallerypics/wk3.jpeg
http://www.parris-cues.co.uk/gallerypics/wk2.jpeg
-- peer
Tony_in_MD said:
Yes he does. here's my cue and it's all CNC.
Provide me some details as to how you know this cue was made with CNC.
I have been visiting Tims shop for years, and saw many cues made during construction. There is not a CNC machine in his shop.
I have been visiting Tims shop for years, and saw many cues made during construction. There is not a CNC machine in his shop.
Jeffrey Gale said:Yes he does. here's my cue and it's all CNC.