Non forfeit at White Diamonds - Whats up with that!!!

[DrOnePocket]

Insane, really? I think making this piece of crap player responsible for the full amount is the only thing to do. I don't care if they have money or not. If someone pays big money, these people are the ones keeping rooms open, then you damn well better show or refund the cash. Put a life ban on the player until a full refund is made.

Didn't a pro player, playing a viking tour event, do this a few years ago? The TD made him refund the buyers money. I can't remember the details but it was something like: player was bought for $800. Player hooked up with someone that had lots of money and golf instead of play his match.

You are missing the point. You knew he was a "piece of crap pool player" when you bid on him. If you are going to buy someone, you should buy someone you brought and are putting in so you know they won't get trashed and will get some sleep and will show up and play.

Do you get mad when a girl you took out on a date that comes from a bad upbringing doesn't act appropriate? You shouldn't. She is who she is, just like the pool player is who he is. This kind of thing doesn't happen to smart gamblers, they see all the angles. I like how you believe everyone should be responsible and do the right thing but the world doesn't work that way and if you believe it does, you will always be let down.

 

[geauxtigers96]

Thing is Chris (the owner of White Diamonds) had agreed to disqualify Jesse. Kevin (the player who he was matched against) didn't want to take the win. Nobody said "Hey Kevin the player didn't show up what do you want to do?" When Kevin was told that Jesse would have to forfeit he told the directors not to do it to just play other matches until Jesse showed up. If it got to a point where they were holding up the tournament then he would take it but he would rather play the match instead.

 

[JoeyA]

Thing is Chris (the owner of White Diamonds) had agreed to disqualify Jesse. Kevin (the player who he was matched against) didn't want to take the win. Nobody said "Hey Kevin the player didn't show up what do you want to do?" When Kevin was told that Jesse would have to forfeit he told the directors not to do it to just play other matches until Jesse showed up. If it got to a point where they were holding up the tournament then he would take it but he would rather play the match instead.

I understand Kevin wanting to do this. The problem is, it's just not fair to the other players who have to follow the rules or get penalized. Also, some of the other players in the tournament are not there to play a big name player but to get the cash; and in that case, it's not fair to them either.

I like the way Jesse handles himself so I don't have an ax to grind, except that rules are rules and they should be the same for everyone, NO EXCEPTIONS. First and foremost though, tournament directors should never ask a player what they want to do. Decisions like these should be made by the rules, not by which way the wind is blowing today.

 

[dardusm]

That's the problem with Calcutta's. I'm playing the Devil's advocate here, but why does a player have an obligation to the calcutta? I'll be damned if I'm in a car accident or whatever, and be forced to pay $$$ for not being able to make the tournament. Calcutta's are optional for players plus they are probably as illegal as hell because a 3rd party is involved.

With that said, Calcutta's can make a tournament more interesting for players and spectators alike. White Diamond's wouldn't be White Diamond's without the Calcutta. When you are talking thousands of dollars, forfeiting a player and their Calcutta could hurt the tournament so I could see the reason for a forfeit being the last option. Life isn't fair.

Finally, I have mixed feelings about Calcutta's as a player. Maybe an option would be that if the player is going to be responsible for forfeits and $$$ on Calcutta's maybe there should be an automatic jelly of 10% over the cost of the player. If the player buys half themselves then a 5% jelly but if the player forfeits then they would be responsible for their actions.

 

[JoeyA]

That's the problem with Calcutta's. I'm playing the Devil's advocate here, but why does a player have an obligation to the calcutta? I'll be damned if I'm in a car accident or whatever, and be forced to pay $$$ for not being able to make the tournament. Calcutta's are optional for players plus they are probably as illegal as hell because a 3rd party is involved.

With that said, Calcutta's can make a tournament more interesting for players and spectators alike. White Diamond's wouldn't be White Diamond's without the Calcutta. When you are talking thousands of dollars, forfeiting a player and their Calcutta could hurt the tournament so I could see the reason for a forfeit being the last option. Life isn't fair.

Finally, I have mixed feelings about Calcutta's as a player. Maybe an option would be that if the player is going to be responsible for forfeits and $$$ on Calcutta's maybe there should be an automatic jelly of 10% over the cost of the player. If the player buys half themselves then a 5% jelly but if the player forfeits then they would be responsible for their actions.

Right now and for some time now, Calcuttas are legal in Louisiana. However if the house starts pulling out money or setting money aside for whatever reason, Calcuttas won't remain legal, imo.

I sympathize with the tournament promoter concerning big name players who go for huge amounts of money. Someone bought that big name player who is about to forfeit their match. Is it fair to the Calcutta buyer that the big name player doesn't show up on time for their match?

You make a valid point that the White Diamonds event wouldn't be the same without the BIG CALCUTTA. :indecisive:

 

[SUPERSTAR]

Death to calcuttas.

 

[dbldown]

calcutta

As always caveat emptor, buyer beware.
Beware of the dump, double cross...
Also what if the player can't make day 2 of the event because their loved one has a medical emergency?
They are under no obligation to the buyer, its just they simple.

 

[decent dennis]

You are missing the point. You knew he was a "piece of crap pool player" when you bid on him. If you are going to buy someone, you should buy someone you brought and are putting in so you know they won't get trashed and will get some sleep and will show up and play.

Do you get mad when a girl you took out on a date that comes from a bad upbringing doesn't act appropriate? You shouldn't. She is who she is, just like the pool player is who he is. This kind of thing doesn't happen to smart gamblers, they see all the angles. I like how you believe everyone should be responsible and do the right thing but the world doesn't work that way and if you believe it does, you will always be let down.

Ok , what did the girl with the bad upbringing do?

 

[HawaiianEye]

Ok , what did the girl with the bad upbringing do?

Hopefully, A LOT!!!

 

[ballbangr]

Joey, I remember discussing this with you at White Diamonds when it happened. I completely agree with you.

I didn't care if they forfeited Bowman or skipped over him until they had no other option than to forfeit him, but the opponents request should never have been considered. It's not fair to his opponent, it's not fair to the people waiting for the outcome of that match, and it's not fair for the rest of the players in the tournament who are held to the rules.

If they already forfeited him then that's it. Had they not forfeited him after announcing the rule (which is that you have to be in the building and they will make every effort to find you but if they call you and you do not show within the allotted time then it is a forfeit) and the opponent then requested that they forfeit him instead of skipping over him, would they have then forfeited him just because the opponent requested it?

There were multiple other times that they could have skipped over a match and come back to it, but they didn't. Especially on the second day, they told people to be there by a certain time and if they weren't there, they didn't even wait the 15 or 30 minutes, they just forfeited them and moved on (which I completely agree with, just pointing our the opposite side of the coin). In fact, I was with someone that moved into the second Calcutta because his opponent was forfeited because he did not make it when in reality, the tables just sat open waiting for the other matches to end before starting the second Calcutta.

Just keep in consistent, skip them and come back or forfeit them and that's it but never let the opponent make the decision when you have other people in the Calcutta vested in the decision. This is why I don't participate in Calcutta's personally, there are too many variables. Even when I know the people personally and don't have to worry about any of the nonsense and politics (this is not directed at this tournament but a statement in general) that goes on behind the scenes, there are just too many variables.

Having said all of that, I feel comfortable knowing that at this tournament the difficult decision would be made if it had to be. So many other tournaments would not be willing to make that decision, but I know that Chris will pull that trigger and he will stand behind it if he has to regardless of whether it is some no-name like myself or one of the tournament favorites and Calcutta monsters. Just a little more consistency please.

 

[elvicash]

Thing is Chris (the owner of White Diamonds) had agreed to disqualify Jesse. Kevin (the player who he was matched against) didn't want to take the win. Nobody said "Hey Kevin the player didn't show up what do you want to do?" When Kevin was told that Jesse would have to forfeit he told the directors not to do it to just play other matches until Jesse showed up. If it got to a point where they were holding up the tournament then he would take it but he would rather play the match instead.

Hi Chris, This is Dana Stephenson from Indy. I loved your event and pool room and I think it was all fair and above board I just thought we should review this particular event which is why I started this thread. I was just shocked that the opponent could hold the place for Jesse and I have no doubt that is exactly what happened. The reason I was surprised is because of the straight forward explanation of the rules in the players meeting it was pretty much easy to understand your explanation. What I got from you in the meeting on being there for your match was that if you are not there you WILL be forfeited. The option for the opponent to hold for you was not explained at all. I personally hope it is not allowed in the future as it is not fair to the others who are all waiting around for their matches.

Also while talking about the rules, I made a few dollars on the last two matches obviously I took SVB but my point is in the players meeting you explained the rules about racking and it seemed like all of the fingers would be used only from behind the rack nothing on top of the balls. When SVB racked he always finished by fingering the 1 ball from the front. I think if I was his opponent I would have asked him not to do that as the rules stated we would not touch the balls anywhere but from the back of the rack. It is so obvious to me that SVB has the softbreak and gapped rack working super strong on the bar box. That approach does require the 1 ball be up tight to the next two balls. I would love to see what he was racking for himself, to see exactly how the balls were racked. Shane always broke with that 50% powder puff stroke and made the corner ball I am pretty sure 100% of the time. Nice little trick shot I think he learned it from Car Lot Donny Mills.

I totally loved the way Chris explained the rules and I know he got his point across and expect he will have this forfeit ruling figured out for the next tourney.

 

[ironman]

If it is you state, it is a forfeit.
Once a forfeit is called, it is final.

A couple years ago, we had to forfeit Ralf Souquet in the us open 10-ball.
He was in a car accident and be 30-60 minutes late.

We had no choice.

It is also unfair to ask the opposing player. It is not his decision and that player is placed under tremendous pressure to agree to play.

In addition, how do you keep a tournament on schedule when you now have one match an hour late.

Bad decision if the facts are accurate.

Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI

There you have it and well said.

 

[JB Cases]

We seldom do events with calcuttas. However, my policy on forfeits that could have any affect on the Calcutta was pretty straight forward: the player must reimburse the Calcutta owner the amount lost. Often there are multiple owners so confusion can happen, but there has to be a penalty to avoid manipulations or 'dumping an owner'.

There is no real connection to the event and the Calcutta but there has to some thought given to protect all parties and to be fair. Remember, the player was late to forfeit - it is their responsibility to show up.

Mark Griffin

That sounds like a recipe for disaster. What if the player is sick or in an accident or whatever. People shouldn't bet on others like horses unless they are willing to take the chance that their horse might not run.

 

[Eric.]

The other thing that I REALLY can't stand is when a tournament director will ask the player, "Well, so-and-so isn't here. What do you want to do?

The tournament director should never leave it up to either of the players to change the rules of the event.

I agree with the Bishop.

I would guess that everyone has been in the same spot, at one time. It's out of line for any tourney director to put the non offending player in the middle.

The last time it happened to me, I ended up putting it back on the tourney director. the players had to be at the table, within 15 minutes of being called. At the 20 minute mark, I walked up to the tourney desk and turned my scoresheet in. Within a minute, my opponent walks up and wants to play his match. Perhaps, due to his loud and persistant complaining to the director, the TD eventually turns towards me and sez "Are you ready to play?" I hesitate to answer. she now sez "Are we here to play Pool?" I turned to her and asked "Well, whats the rule about being late to a match?" She got quiet and forfeited my opponent.

What Mark Grif was saying is right on. The players shouldn't be put in the middle. Thats what TD's are for.


Eric

 

[pt109]

I've never liked the rule...'over 15 minutes late and you lose the match'

The WPBSA in Britain says..'15 minutes late (or any portion) and you lose
a game,,,15 minutes and 1 second, you're down 2-nothing..the player that
showed doesn't win a race to 5 till 1 hour & 1 second has elapsed.

I would like to see this system at 9-ball using 5 minutes instead of 15....
(in a race to 9, you'd have to be 40 minutes and 1 second late to lose 9-0)
..if a player is stuck in traffic or whatever, he still has a chance to win.

I agree that any decisions should be out of the hands of the players....
..it eliminates coercion, social intimidation, and especially bullying by
another player.
As a TD, I would NOT allow a match to be played after a forfeiture, even
if BOTH players wanted to play.

 

[John Brumback]

How about this.....If i have to pay them back if something happens and I'm late for the match or say..I just don't feel like playing.. then when I win or get in the $ they HAVE to pay me half.Fairs fair,right?

Example: I've been on the road for a month or two,sick of pool and pool players and I lose the first round in a stinkin bar rag tourney with like 150 players..well,I decide to just go home right then.Well the next time I'm down that way some ***** wants me to give him half his $ back that HE blew on me in the calcutta.Yeah right,I told him to go take hike. Is it really any wonder why pool stays in the shitter.Not in my mind it's not.
That might be the dumbest thing I have ever heard of in my life of pool, that I might have to pay someone back for something I'm not even in for. I paid "(MY) ENTRY FEE"
I'm just so glad I don't do this crap for a living anymore.The player should never have to pay anyone back in a stinkin calcutta!!!! period. John B.

 

[justadub]

How about this.....If i have to pay them back if something happens and I'm late for the match or say..I just don't feel like playing.. then when I win or get in the $ they HAVE to pay me half.Fairs fair,right?

Example: I've been on the road for a month or two,sick of pool and pool players and I lose the first round in a stinkin bar rag tourney with like 150 players..well,I decide to just go home right then.Well the next time I'm down that way some ***** wants me to give him half his $ back that HE blew on me in the calcutta.Yeah right,I told him to go take hike. Is it really any wonder why pool stays in the shitter.Not in my mind it's not.
That might be the dumbest thing I have ever heard of in my life of pool, that I might have to pay someone back for something I'm not even in for. I paid "(MY) ENTRY FEE"
I'm just so glad I don't do this crap for a living anymore.The player should never have to pay anyone back in a stinkin calcutta!!!! period. John B.

There you go. Sums it up quite nicely.

 

[JAM]

How about this.....If i have to pay them back if something happens and I'm late for the match or say..I just don't feel like playing.. then when I win or get in the $ they HAVE to pay me half.Fairs fair,right?

Example: I've been on the road for a month or two,sick of pool and pool players and I lose the first round in a stinkin bar rag tourney with like 150 players..well,I decide to just go home right then.Well the next time I'm down that way some ***** wants me to give him half his $ back that HE blew on me in the calcutta.Yeah right,I told him to go take hike. Is it really any wonder why pool stays in the shitter.Not in my mind it's not.
That might be the dumbest thing I have ever heard of in my life of pool, that I might have to pay someone back for something I'm not even in for. I paid "(MY) ENTRY FEE"
I'm just so glad I don't do this crap for a living anymore.The player should never have to pay anyone back in a stinkin calcutta!!!! period. John B.

I agree 100 percent. How could anyone expect the player to pay back the calcutta railbirds?

Most of the calcutta railbirds don't give the player a bone even when the player wins.

The player doesn't owe any allegiance to the calcutta. That is there for the pure enjoyment of backers, railbirds, and the viewing public.

Everybody should know this, and if they don't, well, it's buyer beware anytime you buy anyone in a calcutta. You risk losing your dough.

It would be like me going to the horse races and asking for them to pay me back for my expenses at the track if my horse is scratched. Gimme a break!

 

[JAM]

Thing is Chris (the owner of White Diamonds) had agreed to disqualify Jesse. Kevin (the player who he was matched against) didn't want to take the win. Nobody said "Hey Kevin the player didn't show up what do you want to do?" When Kevin was told that Jesse would have to forfeit he told the directors not to do it to just play other matches until Jesse showed up. If it got to a point where they were holding up the tournament then he would take it but he would rather play the match instead.

Totally wrong thing to do in any tournament. All players should be treated equal, and the rules should be adhered to at all times. No favoritism!

 

[pt109]

How about this.....If i have to pay them back if something happens and I'm late for the match or say..I just don't feel like playing.. then when I win or get in the $ they HAVE to pay me half.Fairs fair,right?
John B.

I agree with not having to cough up somebody's calcutta money....
...but I DON'T agree that there should be no repercussions...
In a calcutta, you have a responsibility to play your hardest, same thing
applies if there is a gate or added money involved.

As a TD, if a player didn't have a good reason to miss his match, I would
bar him for a year ( assuming it's a regular tournament or tour)
...third time, barred for life.

In the 60's,when you could buy a new Fairlane for less than $2,500, golf
generated $100,000 calcuttas....this would not have happened if the
players were not responsible and honorable.
Golf is doing pretty good right now.