Non-Traditional Banking

RonV said:
David, PJ and I spoke a few times and he said he wanted a phone lesson...I said I would give him one but then his reply was...I`am not really into systems but i`ll give it a try...My reply was I do not think we should waste each others time...

I don't remember ever speaking with you, Ron. I answered one or two emails you sent, but don't believe I ever said I'd "give it a try". As I recall our last email exchange was you offering to send me some printed material, me saying I'd be interested to see them but might or might not be interested in a phone lesson, and you saying never mind.

I'm still interested in looking at your printed material if you want, but as I said before, I might or might not want a phone lesson afterward. I won't take the materials on the condition that I also get a phone lesson.

No offense - I'm sure it's very interesting.

pj
chgo
 
mikepage said:
I think what Patrick is saying is that you sometimes don't pivot at all, others times pivot a half tip to the outside, other times you pivot a whole tip to the inside, and so forth.

Because there's nothing written on the balls to say how, for a particular shot, to pivot, you are using judgment to choose what to do. The insight necessary to make that judgment is at least related to the insight necessary to just fire in the bank without your pivot method.

I'm just saying that on the intuitive adjustment issue, you have to recognize that what is is what it is.

I loved the video, by the way. You have a very entertaining style. Thank you.

Coming from you - that's a big compliment - I love your videos. I dont pivot if I make the ball head-on, flat. If it's long a little bit, you pivot 1/2 tip to the outside. If it's long a WAYS, pivot 1 tip outside. There's no intuition required....anywhere near the pocket is 1/2 tip, nowhere close is a tip.

I disagree with the intuition on the pivot. People incorrectly think there's a TON of pivot combinations... there's only 3---- no english, 1/2 tip or 1 tip. A, B or C...chocolate, vanilla or strawberry. That's it... bingo bango... shacklacka...ball's in.
 
Wybrook said:
Hi,

Does anyone actually believe in banking systems? or aiming systems for that matter?

If you really wanted to calculate the "system" for banking, etc, it would require calculations that no one could do in their head. There are so many variables in pool that these so called systems are merely guides to make sure you are hitting the correct side of the ball.

I suppose you could adjust a particular "system" to make it work on a specific table with certain balls, one cue, one person, exact humidity, right time of day, perfect temperature, type of chalk, precise speed, exact cueball hit and probably other variables that I am leaving out, but do you really think it would work if you changed one or perhaps, several of these things.

If you don't believe that all these things matter, especially when banking, then perhaps you don't fully understand pool at it's finest. I don't think people should put very much faith into any system as it will lead them astray and not really teach them pool. It will give you false confidence and you will scratch your head in disbelief every time one of your "dead" banks misses by a diamond.

The best system is in your head already, and its called "feel". That, along with a little bit of confidence and practice, will carry you a lot further than some concocted "system" that tries to displace the magic in pool. There is no secret that the pros know that you don't (well, here and there), but generally, go practice and you will learn to make any shot or bank you want to.

Adam W.

ps. I am not trying to be the "spoil-sport" here, but I just don't like mis-information. If someone wants to prove to me that their "systems" work under multiple conditions, even two would suffice, then I would retract what I've said, but its never happened. Come play where I play and you will think you are in a different world, the banks are so incredibly short because of the humidity.

Come to PA and I'll show you
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I don't remember ever speaking with you, Ron. I answered one or two emails you sent, but don't believe I ever said I'd "give it a try". As I recall our last email exchange was you offering to send me some printed material, me saying I'd be interested to see them but might or might not be interested in a phone lesson, and you saying never mind.

I'm still interested in looking at your printed material if you want, but as I said before, I might or might not want a phone lesson afterward. I won't take the materials on the condition that I also get a phone lesson.

No offense - I'm sure it's very interesting.

pj
chgo

PJ--

How well do you play? I'm not asking to be smart, cause I really enjoy the back and forths... but if I knew exactly how you played, I could give you a detailed description based on your ability. If you're some kind of gambler and think I'm outing your action, no need to respond, I respect that. I don't gamble anymore so I don't care who knows my speed.

Dave
 
I'm not sure if you get what i am saying... If you have to adjust a "system", how can you justify using it? A true system would need no adjustments and it would work under any circumstance, therefore, you are really doing most of the calculations in your head. Here is where "feel" comes into play.

I am a solid banker and I don't use systems. I have even played against other real good players and never seen any "system use" just because they played well. I think that coming up with systems is a way to sell something to people who have no clue, or think they can get around practicing. I understand that if pool were played in some sort of vacuum in a lab somewhere, there may be something close, but even then, there would not be a true system. There can't be. You can never duplicate a shot in pool. Yes, a simple stop shot, but I would bet that if you really measured everything, any two shots would be different in some aspect.

I just believe that all systems should be taken with a grain of salt. They are what they are (and aren't) and should never be relied upon.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
PJ--

How well do you play? I'm not asking to be smart, cause I really enjoy the back and forths... but if I knew exactly how you played, I could give you a detailed description based on your ability. If you're some kind of gambler and think I'm outing your action, no need to respond, I respect that. I don't gamble anymore so I don't care who knows my speed.

Dave

I'm no world beater, but I can string two or three racks of 9-ball on occasion, can run out at one pocket every now and then (although I sell out way more often), and occasionally run a rack of rotation (with the balls spread out for practice). I've hardly ever played 14.1, so I don't know my high run potential in that. I've also hardly ever played banks, so can't give you a high run in that, but I bank well enough to not fear them in other games.

My weak points are concentration (especially when competing - I practice at home a lot) and consistency. I don't use any systems, unless you count using the diamonds to help measure "mirror" angles as starting points for aiming one-rail banks/kicks.

I've played a few people on here, who are welcome to correct any hyperbole I'm guilty of (but I'll get you for it).

Is that descriptive enough to help?

pj
chgo
 
BRKNRUN said:
PJ tries to determine what doesn't work in a system.
Bwahahahahahah. Seriously though, PJ will often apply much time and effort into his replies and point out any obvious flaws. He does a good job of watch-dogging the forum for BS. Gotta give him credit for that.

The watching may be a bit overdone however, as he has over 3,200 posts in about a year. Which puts him in the top 50 or so all time posters at around 13 months. BPG24 has him beat with 3400+ since August 2007; CococolaCowboy has 4400+ sine July 2007 (doh! - 11 posts per day average!) Honestly dudes, there's more to life than AZB ;) Time to upgrade to cable.

-td
 
Neil said:
Adam: Go here http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=107818&page=2 , post 75 &76, and try that. It's worked for me on any reasonable table.



Exactly, this is someone trying to find out how to "learn" pool without practice. This is a bs way of trying to play, not insulting anyone or anything, but this stuff does not work.

Someone needs to stop feeding garbage into people's heads about pool. I overhear "instructors" all the time telling their wide-eyed pupils all the secrets of pool and most of it is absolute bs. It's not true.

I read all the posts here at AZ and see how people get roped into all these aiming techniques and banking systems and such and laugh at some of the ignorance involved. Not all of it is not true, as there is some fact in a lot of what is said, but not near the extent that it normally is carried out to.

I think people want to learn so bad, or at least play better, they will listen to anyone and anything, no matter how foolish it would sound if they were to actually take the time to evaluate it themselves instead of following the herd.
 
Nice Video Dave!!!

I have always banked by "feel". After you know all the variables in banking,(speed of shot,eng. on the qb if needed, etc.) then banking is very easy to understand. (well,in my case, thats how I learned the principles of banking) But, I dont think I could teach anyone with the way my mind works,LOL. Good Job Dave.

BTW, What a Hottie!!!!
 
SpiderWebComm said:
Coming from you - that's a big compliment - I love your videos. I dont pivot if I make the ball head-on, flat. If it's long a little bit, you pivot 1/2 tip to the outside. If it's long a WAYS, pivot 1 tip outside. There's no intuition required....anywhere near the pocket is 1/2 tip, nowhere close is a tip.

I disagree with the intuition on the pivot. People incorrectly think there's a TON of pivot combinations... there's only 3---- no english, 1/2 tip or 1 tip. A, B or C...chocolate, vanilla or strawberry. That's it... bingo bango... shacklacka...ball's in.

This is the only time I've seen you describe this in any detail - I appreciate it.

But I have to say it's simply impossible to make all bank shots (or all shots period, which is essentially the same thing since banks come in all angles) with only straight-on shots plus two cut angles - unless you're adjusting somehow on the vast majority of them. I could prove that with tests, but it's so obvious that I won't put myself to the trouble - it's almost as obvious as the fact that you can't make all banks (or all shots) by hitting every OB straight on.

Sorry if I've misunderstood something. And let me say once again (I should include this in my sig) that I'm not saying the system is useless - just that it doesn't work as simply as that, no matter what you feel is going on.

pj
chgo
 
BRKNRUN said:
Actually PJ really is into systems...quite a bit more than he realizes.

I realize the extent of my interest in them - and the nature of it.

He is just into them for a different reason....Most try and find what works about a system....PJ tries to determine what doesn't work in a system.

I try to find out what really works in a system, and then I give the system credit for that. Naturally, all the noise and heat arises around the limitations I point out, but that's an essential part of finding out what does work, and if you look back carefully you'll find that I've given systems more credit than just about anybody for their real value.

I'm apparently one of very few on here who's able or willing to do this, and I'm not so concerned with being universally popular here that I mind throwing myself on the same grenade over and over again. What have you done for us lately? :)

pj
chgo
 
SpiderWebComm said:
[...] If it's long a little bit, you pivot 1/2 tip to the outside. If it's long a WAYS, pivot 1 tip outside. There's no intuition required....anywhere near the pocket is 1/2 tip, nowhere close is a tip.

We must be using the word intuition differently, because I'm talking about just the judgment you describe here. The only way you can know the full hit will send you just a wee bit long is to always have a pretty solid idea about where the drilled full on bank is going. Maybe it should be called judgment or experience-based knowledge or something.

It's like in golf knowing a good smooth easy swing with a seven iron from where you lie is going to land on the front part of the green, and the same good swing with a six iron is going to land on the back part of the green. Inexperienced players--besides not being to execute a consistent smooth swing--lack this judgment/intuition/experience-based knowledge.

I disagree with the intuition on the pivot. People incorrectly think there's a TON of pivot combinations... there's only 3---- no english, 1/2 tip or 1 tip. A, B or C...chocolate, vanilla or strawberry. That's it... bingo bango... shacklacka...ball's in.

By the way, I just tried this both with one of my "normal" squirt cues and also with an OB1 (low squirt) shaft. I get a much bigger range of lengthening and shortening with the low-squirt shaft. This makes sense, because you get a double whammy. When you pivot about say an 8-inch bridge in the downstream direction using a low-squirt shaft, you get a bunch of shortening from the cueball direction change--and then added to this you get shortening from the transferred check english. Same deal for the lengthening.
 
Wybrook said:
There is no secret that the pros know that you don't (well, here and there), but generally, go practice and you will learn to make any shot or bank you want to.

Adam W.


How do you know?

This is from CJ Wiley years back:

The Final Secret
There you have it, the secrets of aiming
from dozens of the top players who do it
best. But then again, is the secret really
out? #2 ranked C.J. Wiley offers that you
must aim before you get down on the ball
by lining up correctly, of course, but adds
that as far as his aiming method itself,
"There are certain things you don't tell.
Last time I wrote anything about aiming,
somebody copied it and started selling it."
I considered Chinese water torture, but
I don't think he would've cracked.
I guess the secret may still be out
there... somewhere. ?
128 Pool
 
Koop said:
How do you know?


I dunno....hmmm.... been playing 33 years. Beaten most of the guys who are revered as top pros. I just happen to work 60-80 hours a week and realized long ago that there is not a lot of money in pool, and I prefer a nice steady paycheck. :)
 
Last edited:
Wybrook said:
I dunno....hmmm.... been playing 33 years. Beaten most of the guys who are revered as top pros. I just happen to work 60-80 hours a week and realized long ago that there is not a lot of money in pool, and I prefer a nice steady paycheck. :)

I acknowledge your accomplishments but you didn't acknowledge what a top pro wrote about aiming. Is he lying and if so, why bring up a secret aiming system if he was?
Also, while I am not one of them, I bet there a hundred guys out there that could claim they have beaten top pros before. The difference is that they continue to make money doing it and winning tournaments. It's not surprising at all to me to see the same group of players continually making the money.
 
It must be some secret they are all sharing amongst themselves. C'mon now. Maybe its a dedication to practice or trying to learn more about the game every day.

Actually, the same players are not consistently winning. There are very few and they are cyclic. If you check out trends, only a handful have done decent for any period of time, the rest did good for a year or two and now you can't find them anywhere.
 
I would like to post, but what happens, is a particular topic gets beat to death by people who really aren't qualified to be commenting on it because of lack of experience, or general lack of understanding. I encourage everyone to get involved in conversations, but please don't beat any dead horses. :)

I actually still play as much as possible, its just that my business has taken off recently and I am dedicating myself in that direction because of obvious reasons. I am still heavily involved in pool and have one video out and am working on two more and also a tutorial website for pool. I will let everyone know when it launches.
 
PJ,I`am going to quote you...I saved the e-mail...

"I`am not a good system shooter and not really interested...
 
Back
Top