Non-Traditional Banking

Dave,
I got no problem identifying what your doing. I understand what your achieving for alignment and adjustment for whether you need to Push/Pull the ball +/- 1 diamond (or multiples or fractions). No problem. It's just the pivot part vs. speed were you lose me. Obviously if your object is 3 feet as opposed to 6" (distance from cue ball to object) you need to adjust for the squirt of the cue ball. I realize it's that the check of the rail vs. squirt will cancel out somewhat. I would assume that if you played the same shot and moved the ball back 24" you have to see different results.

This doesn't address the table it's self. Does it bank short or long. New/Old cloth, New/Old balls or even dirty for that matter. Most of the worlds best bankers do it at speed. This way they take natural rolling effect of the object ball and what it does at impact with the cushion and it's tendency to open up out of the equatition. For banks and rotation games this is generally ok. For one pocket...I don't like it so much. Nobody likes a bank that you miss by an inch short coming back to their opponents pocket.

When you hit the ball off center slowly...even with a level cue the ball will squirt out and then masse. The physics of the shot dictates this. Adjustments must be made. I like your video and it should be useful for some here as a starting point. Good job.

Nick "Need to go to Safeway for more tin foil" Beretanos


SpiderWebComm said:
The system is actually a modified mirror system. The reason why you get the same results over such a wide range of angles is because the pivot sends you to the mirror point. With the center-to-edge system, the pivot is always the same....my tip ends at center every time (reverse BHE). With center-to-center, my tip starts at center, and depending on the shot is offset in a multiple of 1/2 tip every time.

I realize it looks like I'm feel banking, but I'm not. I hit firmly because it's how I personally bank. I can redo the video and pocket speed everything with the same results.
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td873 said:
A few Q's for the unitiated:
When you pivot either direction (from the center-to-center position), aren't you putting english on the cue ball?

Also, is the pivot dependent on distance between the cue ball and the OB? i.e. more pivot for closer shots, or more for longer shots.

Can you shed some light on how this helps non-banks?

Thanks,

-td
Click to expand...

Since you bumped, I'll do what I can to answer quick... I'm in the middle of setting up.

When you pivot in either direction, you are putting english on the CB... it is different than moving your cue parallel, however. It's crucial for the center to center system that you pivot and not just use 1/2 tip parallel english (whatever it's called now, i'm so confused with that stuff).

There is no correlation between the pivot distance and the distance between the CB and OB. It doesn't matter. I could make a video of making banks all day long with different distances and different speeds but I'd get frustrated because some people would say I'm banking by feel or whatever, and I'm sooooo not. My feel "ain't that good" to fire balls in like that off of intuition.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
I'm confused how do you not understand this stuff.
Click to expand...

All you've done is show a video of you making some banks and saying you're "pivoting". You haven't explained what "pivoting" is or how to do it. If you think you've explained or even demonstrated the system, then I can see that you're confused. All you've demonstrated is that you can make some banks - somehow.

pj
chgo
 
Nick B said:
Dave,
I got no problem identifying what your doing. I understand what your achieving for alignment and adjustment for whether you need to Push/Pull the ball +/- 1 diamond (or multiples or fractions). No problem. It's just the pivot part vs. speed were you lose me. Obviously if your object is 3 feet as opposed to 6" (distance from cue ball to object) you need to adjust for the squirt of the cue ball. I realize it's that the check of the rail vs. squirt will cancel out somewhat. I would assume that if you played the same shot and moved the ball back 24" you have to see different results.

This doesn't address the table it's self. Does it bank short or long. New/Old cloth, New/Old balls or even dirty for that matter. Most of the worlds best bankers do it at speed. This way they take natural rolling effect of the object ball and what it does at impact with the cushion and it's tendency to open up out of the equatition. For banks and rotation games this is generally ok. For one pocket...I don't like it so much. Nobody likes a bank that you miss by an inch short coming back to their opponents pocket.

When you hit the ball off center slowly...even with a level cue the ball will squirt out and then masse. The physics of the shot dictates this. Adjustments must be made. I like your video and it should be useful for some here as a starting point. Good job.

Nick "Need to go to Safeway for more tin foil" Beretanos
Click to expand...

Nick,

There's like ZERO squirt when "pivoting" with a tip or less of english. Meaning, there's so little, I don't even figure it in regardless of the distance between the two balls.

I PROMISE you brother, different distance....same results.

Another thing I noticed while looking at the video is that the angles all look similar .... but each shot I setup was WAY different. The web cam distorts the viewer's perception of each shot I made. They were all quite different.

I promise when I get back, I'll do a way more comprehensive video to answer these questions and setup a TON of different shots so you can see what can be made with what adjustment. All I can say is for standard banks (80% of those we choose to shoot), these system will make them consistently.

Brand new felt, by the way, you have to adjust. That's true no matter what method you use to bank.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
All you've done is show a video of you making some banks and saying you're "pivoting". You haven't explained what "pivoting" is or how to do it. If you think you've explained or even demonstrated the system, then I can see that you're confused. All you've demonstrated is that you can make some banks - somehow.

pj
chgo
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I did explain it--- multiple times between the video and this thread.

Someone jump in here. If I'm making no sense, someone other than PJ tell me. If I'm not, my apologies, I'll redo the video in detail when I get back home at the end of the week.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
I did explain it--- multiple times between the video and this thread.

Someone jump in here. If I'm making no sense, someone other than PJ tell me. If I'm not, my apologies, I'll redo the video in detail when I get back home at the end of the week.
Click to expand...

OK, I don't see how you cover all angles at all distances either.
As I said before:
"I wish that you had a close up overhead zoom camera to show how much you pivot for a given angle to the pocket and distance from the CB to the OB to the pocket etc.

It would seem that with either the center to center or center to edge method, the tip of the cue would be at the same angle for the same shot in both to get the "exact" same result."
 
SpiderWebComm said:
I did explain it--- multiple times between the video and this thread.

Someone jump in here. If I'm making no sense, someone other than PJ tell me. If I'm not, my apologies, I'll redo the video in detail when I get back home at the end of the week.
Click to expand...


I think what Patrick is saying is that you sometimes don't pivot at all, others times pivot a half tip to the outside, other times you pivot a whole tip to the inside, and so forth.

Because there's nothing written on the balls to say how, for a particular shot, to pivot, you are using judgment to choose what to do. The insight necessary to make that judgment is at least related to the insight necessary to just fire in the bank without your pivot method.

I'm just saying that on the intuitive adjustment issue, you have to recognize that what is is what it is.

I loved the video, by the way. You have a very entertaining style. Thank you.
 
Dave,

You did a great job of explaining to players of an intermediate to advanced level how this system works. I have always used the mirror image banking system and now I know how to bank using this system for banks that are not a mirror image to the pocket. I definitely get what you are saying. I don't need it drawn out with a big fat pencil and preschool wide ruled paper to get it!! LOL

Thanks for the video!! Using this system will help me tremendously.


Gary
 
SpiderWebComm said:
[...]If I'm making no sense, someone [...] tell me.
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It makes sense. It's just not easy to "believe" that it makes sense. Not to shoot the messenger, but the biggest issues left open are the technical ("scientific") explanations about this, which unfortunately makes your video and description easy targets to attack on that level. The fact that a simple pivot makes banks does sound far-fetched and snake-oily. But I did get it. And thanks for the video. Now about that camera...

Here's my attempt at describing it. Please correct my understanding if I'm off the mark.

  • As I understand it from your video and explanation: pivot means rotating the cue around the bridge. That is, if you "pivot" the tip one tip to the left, you are actually moving your body and cue very slightly to the right such that the tip is displaced leftward in relation to the center-to-center line between the CB and OB; but your bridge is in the same spot on the table. This will do 2 things: change the direction of the cue ball (i.e., cutting the OB) and change the english on the cue ball.
  • Despite my intuition that this was a collosal pile of BS, I must admit it works. Albeit for a limited set of banks - but it does work. That is, this method works for banks that require the english naturally imparted by the pivot. If you need opposite english, well, it won't work.
  • Also, it is very difficult to make this method "work" for back-cut banks. Because of the pivot, these banks will automatically get outside english. But the aiming and english results in short banks most of the time. [I used a shot where the balls where parallel to the foot rail, on the first diamond. The OB is on the center line, and the CB is at various distances]
  • Further, I had mixed results when altering my bridge distance. At about 6-10" gave the best results. But anything more or less than that gave poor results. I had the same issue with long banks where the CB was more than 1/2 a table from the OB.
  • On the upside, for the majority of the side rail banks illustrated in your video (shot into the side or corner pocket) - a simple 1/2 tip pivot worked for many different angles. I was actually quite surprised it was effective. To be clearer, when the "mirror" method (i.e., a center-to-center hit) was approximately 1 diamond away from the pocket, a 1/2 tip pivot was effective. That is, a 1/2 tip pivot results in cutting the ball and applying inside english at the same time. For larger "long" offsets, using 1 tip was (again) pretty successful.
  • For banks coming short on the "mirror" line - using a 1/2 tip pivot results in cutting the ball and applying outside english. Again, the results were very good using 1/2 tip pivot for ~1 diamond short, and 1 tip pivot for ~1-2. After 2, it became more difficult to get close to the pocket. This was also true for shots where the CB and OB center lines were parallel to the foot rail.

In sum, I had very low expectations for this method, as it reeks of "just do this and it works" with little (or no) "here is why it works" behind it. But, after teaching many methods for banking - some very hard to learn and most very hard to understand - the success rate for this simple "pivot" method exceeds the time/energy needed to learn it. I was firing in banks using this method in about 2 minutes after watching your video.

So, for the many folks that just want results and could give a hoot about the interaction between deflection, angles, english, speed, bridge length, etc etc, I would suggest giving this a legitimate effort.

The technical aspects of this method are left on the table for further discussion.

-td
 
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Spider, are you familiar with S.A.M.? I was just wondering what your take on it was.

Also, do you think the body pivot is essentially equivalent to BHE, or maybe a combination of FHE and BHE, if you were going to do the same pivot without moving your body?
 
Dave,

Really good video and you deserve a lot of kudos for putting your b@lls on the line and talking / trying to explain these methods.

I still think the how to pivot question is key factor for many trying to understand this. Thanks for the effort so far.

Colin
 
Non traditional Banking.....Putting you money in your mattress...or....Getting a CC from Fatboy.....;)

I watched the video, I can't say I was paying real close attention, but I can kind of relate to the others that mentioned I did not see how the pivot works...

I am also a little confused on what you men by center to edge or center to center.....(center of what) ...My assumption is center of CB to edge of OB...

I would probably prefer a center to center method, but I am not sure after setting up center CB to center OB how to apply the pivot...Which direction and how much?
 
Dave, The sped of the bank effects all systems the harder you hit the shorter you return, the softer you hit the longer you return...That is why medium speed is the best for banking...allthough when i`am playing one pocket I bank pocket speed...which means my ob ball is making one or two revolutions to get to the pocket...that shot is all technique plus system... I hope that answers your question..

Ron V
 
David, PJ and I spoke a few times and he said he wanted a phone lesson...I said I would give him one but then his reply was...I`am not really into systems but i`ll give it a try...My reply was I do not think we should waste each others time...
 
Hi,

Does anyone actually believe in banking systems? or aiming systems for that matter?

If you really wanted to calculate the "system" for banking, etc, it would require calculations that no one could do in their head. There are so many variables in pool that these so called systems are merely guides to make sure you are hitting the correct side of the ball.

I suppose you could adjust a particular "system" to make it work on a specific table with certain balls, one cue, one person, exact humidity, right time of day, perfect temperature, type of chalk, precise speed, exact cueball hit and probably other variables that I am leaving out, but do you really think it would work if you changed one or perhaps, several of these things.

If you don't believe that all these things matter, especially when banking, then perhaps you don't fully understand pool at it's finest. I don't think people should put very much faith into any system as it will lead them astray and not really teach them pool. It will give you false confidence and you will scratch your head in disbelief every time one of your "dead" banks misses by a diamond.

The best system is in your head already, and its called "feel". That, along with a little bit of confidence and practice, will carry you a lot further than some concocted "system" that tries to displace the magic in pool. There is no secret that the pros know that you don't (well, here and there), but generally, go practice and you will learn to make any shot or bank you want to.

Adam W.

ps. I am not trying to be the "spoil-sport" here, but I just don't like mis-information. If someone wants to prove to me that their "systems" work under multiple conditions, even two would suffice, then I would retract what I've said, but its never happened. Come play where I play and you will think you are in a different world, the banks are so incredibly short because of the humidity.
 
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RonV said:
David, PJ and I spoke a few times and he said he wanted a phone lesson...I said I would give him one but then his reply was...I`am not really into systems but i`ll give it a try...My reply was I do not think we should waste each others time...
Click to expand...


Actually PJ really is into systems...quite a bit more than he realizes.

He is just into them for a different reason....Most try and find what works about a system....PJ tries to determine what doesn't work in a system.
 
Wybrook said:
Hi,

Does anyone actually believe in banking systems? or aiming systems for that matter?

If you really wanted to calculate the "system" for banking, etc, it would require calculations that no one could do in their head. There are so many variables in pool that these so called systems are merely guides to make sure you are hitting the correct side of the ball.

I suppose you could adjust a particular "system" to make it work on a specific table with certain balls, one cue, one person, exact humidity, right time of day, perfect temperature, type of chalk, precise speed, exact cueball hit and probably other variables that I am leaving out, but do you really think it would work if you changed one or perhaps, several of these things.

If you don't believe that all these things matter, especially when banking, then perhaps you don't fully understand pool at it's finest. I don't think people should put very much faith into any system as it will lead them astray and not really teach them pool. It will give you false confidence and you will scratch your head in disbelief every time one of your "dead" banks misses by a diamond.

The best system is in your head already, and its called "feel". That, along with a little bit of confidence and practice, will carry you a lot further than some concocted "system" that tries to displace the magic in pool. There is no secret that the pros know that you don't (well, here and there), but generally, go practice and you will learn to make any shot or bank you want to.

Adam W.

ps. I am not trying to be the "spoil-sport" here, but I just don't like mis-information. If someone wants to prove to me that their "systems" work under multiple conditions, even two would suffice, then I would retract what I've said, but its never happened. Come play where I play and you will think you are in a different world, the banks are so incredibly short because of the humidity.
Click to expand...


I think it has to do with the way you reference a system...It appears as if you think a system should eliminate all outside variables...(no system will do that)

Part of the problem is that people think that a system translates into a measuring stick of sorts and that once an inch always an inch.....That would be true if there were no outside variables and the game would be super boring......(kind of like playing older video games that don't have any ranomizaton factors).... the ball is always in the same spot every time.

Pool systems only get you close...Your skill is what makes up for the variables that are always in play.
 
Wybrook said:
Hi,

Does anyone actually believe in banking systems? or aiming systems for that matter?
Click to expand...
I think all good bankers use systems (see Freddy's book). Good potters do too, but they're often simplistic when described, but more complex when you find out what a good player is processing in their procedure.

Colin
 
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