How's that? Are they using alternate breaks?Snapshot9 said:
Tracy
Not Too Many 8 Ball Break and Run
- Thread starter TheBook
- Start date
Tracy
Winner breaks.
I don't know. I was asking in all seriousness, not messing with you. What I put up is the percetage of wins that are the result of B&R's. Percentage of run outs off the break, would be a different animal completely.Snapshot9 said:
Tracy
rackmsckr
I am just kind of curious and since you are there, What is it like in the playing are. With all the players, audience, and production people, is it pretty crowded? If so, it is ususally a bit humid and that has a big effect on how the equipment plays. It can be pretty tough on the break.
How do the players seem to be playing? It was my guess that everyone was going to be a bit tenative the first day. Are a lot of balls being hung? Are players playing a bit cautious? Just very curious.
These may sound like dumb questions, but you are in Florida and humidity can do funny things to a crowded pool room.
When you get a chance please?
I am just kind of curious and since you are there, What is it like in the playing are. With all the players, audience, and production people, is it pretty crowded? If so, it is ususally a bit humid and that has a big effect on how the equipment plays. It can be pretty tough on the break.
How do the players seem to be playing? It was my guess that everyone was going to be a bit tenative the first day. Are a lot of balls being hung? Are players playing a bit cautious? Just very curious.
These may sound like dumb questions, but you are in Florida and humidity can do funny things to a crowded pool room.
When you get a chance please?
ironman said:
Very good playing conditions. Venue is air conditioned and plenty of room for the players.
Most misses seem to be lack of planning or just leaving harder balls until last. Rails slide more than players were used to and of course it's a bit slower, so it is taking time for players to adjust.
Players weren't shaky nervous, but many were playing cautiously, without confidence.
LOL!!! No but... but... but... 9 ball... uh... 9... uh... no... it can't be... I... I don't believe it... this must... this must be a mistake... I always thought 8 ball was for bangers! I hate it when I'm wrong! LOL!!!Mr. Wilson said:I wonder if all the "8 ball is too easy" guys like their crow
Can you 9 ball exclusivists say ouch?
8 ball is a totally different game from 9 ball: many more clusters, easier to mess with your opponent's game, move his balls around when potting yours. Clusters are often a problem. Playing on slower cloth can wreak havoc with position shots, there's always the fear that your opponent will run out on you even if you've managed to tie up their balls, and so on. 8 ball is much more neutral than 9 ball in terms of being a mix of offense and defense; the strategy to consistently win 8 ball is different from 9.Colin Colenso said:
Larry Schwartz has an excellent book that changed my thinking about 8 ball entirely (not that I'm any good at employing it LOL) titled "The 8 Ball Handbook for Winners". If you haven't picked one up, get one. In a nutshell, he proposes that you think of your balls as soldiers, and says not to take them off the table until you are ready to run out on just one turn...
Flex
Best of luck to you Bob! We also have 4 1/2 x 9s here and can only honestly say that the last time I saw a 5x10 with pockets here was back 20+ years ago.Cane said:
I just saw too the mention of a break box, another plus for the Filipino rotation players as I see 70+% of the rotation match breaks done in this area. Another difference that weighs in favor of the Filipino players is the small poolhall owners' regard for the game. Unlike other counties who regard running a pool parlor as 100% business venture thus loosening the pockets. "A customer that can sink a lot of balls is likely to return and bring more business." Here in the Philippines, 20 to 25% of the tables in a poolhall will most likely have 4 1/2 inch pockets. Why is that? Most poolhall owners have a pro or shortstop that he backs in $ games. Being fully accustomed to playing equipment is an advantage that isn't taken lightly here.
Amang didn't fare too good as he's now use to the equipment that the others in the US are too.
It was 44 degrees here this morning and been cool the last few days here in Florida. We have very little humidity at this time, so I don't think it would affect playing conditions too much. On the other hand, I hear the Orlando Convention Center is not the greatest when it comes to climate control. Just from rumblings here in my office with previous conferences over there.
Shorty
Shorty
ironman said:
Sorry I did not see your question until now. If you really want flavor on the atmosphere, read my article I submitted last night for a pool paper I have attached.
The day of the meeting was very humid and drizzling. Yesterday was clear and crisp and inside (as is today), humidity did not seem to be a factor. People were very tentative. The last shot Niels Feijen shot against Allison was his trouble ball that he saved nearly for last. He tried to combo his to follow in A's ball. He did not draw it enough and it hung. In fact, even if he had made it, it would have been an ugly long back cut on the 11, before his shot on the 8. Not only that, but by understroking it, he left Allison in pretty good position on her only remaining ball, the 8.
I also saw Helena's run stopped when she came off the 2nd rail long and ran into a stripe and was blocked on her last solid. There was actually a gap between the 2 stripes and she could have jumped with her own cue. Instead she elected to kick one rail and missed wide by a mile.
I also saw Allison hook herself behind a ball on the 8, I think mainly because of speed and the cloth running long. She made a good attempt at the kick, but sold out.
Factors for not running out as I see it - break box, tighter pockets, slower cloth, poor shot selection or pattern play, cloth running long (so hooking or scratching) and general tentativeness.
You can see that the BR % went up as the matches rounds progressed, and tightened back up on the deciding round.
The pockets are not super tight (new cloth might still be a factor) and they have cut that ledge back some, but you won't see it hitting the rail by a diamond first and going in either. Also, some of the players are hitting the ball too hard when it's unnecessary, instead of pocket speed and the rubber is rejecting them. If they hit pocket speed, there's a greater chance to make the ball, and if it doesn't go, they've got a blocker. Ahhh, the intricacies of 8-ball. lol.
I actually think the speed is just right. Not lightning fast as most of the players are used to, but still not S-L-O-W. It may take a couple more weeks to really slow down, but of course, we won't be here that long. In fact, the players could easily get around 6 rails when they were trying the setup shot Kevin set up.
Oh, if the attached document is too wide, go to format, and make sure word wrap is checked.
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Playing for lots of money...
These guys are playing for lots of money, translates to lots of pressure on a table with very tight pockets. Big difference from the usual 8 ball game on a bar box....
These guys are playing for lots of money, translates to lots of pressure on a table with very tight pockets. Big difference from the usual 8 ball game on a bar box....
Colin Colenso said:
Thank you Colin and Linda,
That gives us a good idea of the conditions. Now I feel like I'm there with you guys.
Intrestingly to me that almost everyone there keeps stating that players are very cautious and breaking balls out at the end of the rack. It sounds as if there are lots of confidence problems.
Funny thing about 8-ball, you have options, but, you have to shoot the shot that needs to be shot, Often, not many 2nd chances.
Thanks for your time and information. Have fun.
Hey guys, the real issue is not "break and runs", its how often the first player to the table with a shot runs (or wins) the rack. If it's a high percentage, then it means the game is too dependent on the luck of the break and that the game is too easy to be used to differentiate champion-caliber players; and we'll have the same problems as they do in 9-ball - too much luck to determine the best player.
These stats were posted by Colin in another thread which is a sample of 55 racks that he observed...Williebetmore said:
Ball off Breaks = 24 from 55 = 43.6%
Break & Run Outs from Sample = 10 = 18.2%
Legal breaks followed by runout = 10 / 24 = 41.7%
Runout % after break (legal or not) = 22 / 55 = 40%
Breaker Win % = 26 from 55 = 47.3%
Break & Run Outs from Sample = 10 = 18.2%
Legal breaks followed by runout = 10 / 24 = 41.7%
Runout % after break (legal or not) = 22 / 55 = 40%
Breaker Win % = 26 from 55 = 47.3%
The fourth stat is what you're looking for. Only 40% of the time, the person with the first shot would run the rack. That's not a very high percentage. This stat will probably go up as the tournament progresses, but I doubt it will go much higher than 50%. At least from this stat, it doesn't seem that 8ball is "too easy to be use to differentiate champion-caliber players". But again, this is just the first day and this is only a 55-rack sample.
Mr. Wilson said:I wonder if all the "8 ball is too easy" guys like their crow
Damn right. I had a guy calling me a retard for even mentioning possibility.
It's a sad sight to see some of the AZBillards strong arms bashing everyone in sight willing to even mention that 8 ball can in any way shape or form test the abilities of a top flight pro.
I will never mention names (not my style) but some people need to get their heads out of the clouds on this issue and come back to reality. Or, at the very least, tune into the IPT!@#
RSB-Refugee said:NAME--------B&R---GAMES WON---PERCENTILE
Feijen---------15--------35------------.428
Bustamante----17-------40------------.425
Hundal---------12-------30------------.400
Hohmann-------13-------33------------.393
Manalo---------15-------40------------.375
Deuel-----------13-------36------------.361
Van Den Berg---13-------39------------.333
Robles----------12-------36------------.333
I'd say they are doing pretty good and Efren hasn't even started yet.
Tracy
EDIT (I was bored)
I think this is saying that if it's winner breaks, they broke about the same number of win (plus or minus 1), since you might break the first rack, and you wouldn't break after the last rack.
Any idea what the percentages are for 9-ball? I'm sure I read from Accustats that it was less than that. Around 30% or less. B&R 40% of the racks you break is big. One can only assume that the top two players left (who actually are shooting the entire tournament) will be B&Ring at that pace or better.
Fred
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I'm not. You can search my screen name + 8 ball and you'll see that I always made the case that the two games emphasize different skills. This, about a year before the IPT was even dreamed of.erikido said:
I did passionately defend the idea that 8 ball should be INCLUDED in pro pool since it isn't an inferior test of skills to 9 ball. Because of that people might of mistaken me for some kind of 8 ball fundamentalist (I hardly ever play the game, unfortunately).
That being said, I love all cue games and their respective characteristics.