I agree with all the above, but in my case it's the new cloth. I have good clean Armith Pro balls and I keep my table very clean. Johnnyt
OB Skid?
- Thread starter Johnnyt
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I agree with all the above, but in my case it's the new cloth. I have good clean Armith Pro balls and I keep my table very clean. Johnnyt
Throw and skid are not the same thing. I can hear the bad contact on my table when skid occours.
Another common name is "cling."
Here it is (see "Coping with Skid" starting on page 13):
Skid/kick/cling is often talked about in terms of excessive throw of the OB with a cut shot, but it can also create a lot of trouble for slow-roll follow shots. One of the new videos Bob and I put out recently looks at this effect:
Regards,
Dave
PS to Fred: Did you see our new break squat video? We filmed this in response to a debate you had with "Eric." (on the BD CCB?) a while back. Here is is:
Any thoughts? I think you were right.
Yes, that's what I try to do, (all of the above) but it'''s giving me a headache having to think that much when playing. I always try to look for the positve side on things. Shooting like that will make me a better position player when the cloth slows down a little. If it ever slows down.
Some table mecahanics and cloth sellers told me it would be too fast for a 7-footer, but I put it on anyway. I know everything. Johnnyt
I've given up playing on 9 footers lately, but play on three 7 ft bar leagues. On Monday in the master's league, our home table has VERY slow cloth with dead rails. Since all the tables are owned and maintained by the league operator they are very similar. Same league on Wednesday. BUT on Thursday I play on a table with new slate, Simonis cloth and new tournament rails ! Whewwwwww....It SCREAMS
. I'm constantly out of line on it and after 4 weeks now I'm just starting to get the hang of it...lol. I go in early to get a feel for it and that helps but my muscle/speed memory is just in a different zip code. Nice for Nine Ball after the league. The real players love it...Tom
If I was Eric (or Fred for that matter), I would say that I'd like to see more videos with actual squatting rather than concluding that the ball "would have squatted." I'd also ask to see other breakers (like Souquet) seeing if there was a squatted break without hitting with follow, as well as other breaks with a longer distance to the pack.
It was a good video. I don't want to sound insulting or ungrateful by asking for more. More videos. More information. More education.
Fred
OK Fred. I'll put it on my "list" again. If you want to come out to Colorado to help one day, you are welcome.
Dave
PS: BTW, if you can convince Ralf to show up at my basement one day, I'd be happy to film him squatting the ball ... but, based on the evidence so far, I honestly don't think he can do it on a power break without slight follow on the CB (i.e., slight topspin at impact with the lead ball).
PS: What difference do you think an extra foot or two of travel distance will have, especially since the CB apparently spends most of its time in the air on a power break? Even with the CB hitting the lead ball at slightly different heights, the slight follow seems necessary to slow the CB after rebound off the rack (with a square hit).
I understand that it isn't easy to get exactly the right hit when doing these, so as I said, I didn't want to come off as being ungrateful.
I agree. But, then again, I'd like to see it.dr_dave said:
One of Eric.'s arguments is that the follow on the cueball may come from the cloth. The longer the distance, maybe there's more chance for a centerball hit to pick up enough forward roll. I do know that on a shorter table, I have to aim higher than when breaking on a longer table. But, that could simply be because there is less speed loss on a short table, so therefore, more topspin is needed to squat the cueball. Videos could tell the tale.dr_dave said:
The other part of Eric.'s argument was that when the cueball is in the air, it hits the front ball below the cueball's equator which might translate to forward rotatation of the cueball. IMO, your videos clearly show that no forward moment is added to the cueball when hitting the object ball above its equator (below the cueball equator). I'm satisfied with this. I don't know if Eric. is.
Fred
Hi Johnny,
I have noticed the same thing. Also, banks tend to be long or short for a while too.
Koop
New cloth here and balls skidding like crazy, plus my banks have been going longer than before. Frustrating as I thought I was doing something screwy.
Oh I don't know, after hearing the explanation I'm pretty show that from now on all my misses well be due to skidding.
Oh I don't know, after hearing the explanation I'm pretty show that from now on all my misses well be due to skidding.
SOME certainly will be the result of skidding/cling/collision induced throw.
Watch the collisions closely, especially on the softer shots, and you'll see it and it will piss you off.. guaranteed! ... and it'll learn ya to shoot those shots with a lil helping juice. :groucho:
Oh I don't know, after hearing the explanation I'm pretty show that from now on all my misses well be due to skidding.
lies and statistics ...
Imagine that skid occurs for everybody on one in a thousand shots.
Now take a particular shot that I make 50% of the time and SVB makes 95% of the time. For me to have 1000 MISSES, I have to shoot the shot 2000 times. For SVB to have 1000 MISSES, he has to shoot the shot 20,000 times. Now let's analyze our misses:
me: 1000 misses, 2 of them due to skid
SVB: 1000 misses 20 of them due to skid
conclusion?
Skid is a bigger problem for SVB than it is for me.
Skid is a bigger problem for anybody on easier shots (On easy shots a higher fraction of your misses will be due to skid).
Perhaps the best tournament finish I every had was a 5/6 finish at the 4-bears casino tournament in ND several years ago. I was on the B side playing Derek McMaster from Minneapolis for fourth place and I was up 3-1 in a race to 5 (8 ball). I had an easy two-foot shot into the side pocket for which I needed to follow the cueball anywhere between 4 and 24 inches for perfect shape on the 8 to go up 4-1. --quite a range. I hit it with a stroke for which the cueball should have followed 12-15 inches. To my surprise, the cueball struck the object ball, jumped straight up in the air a bit, and landed right where the object ball was. I was hooked on the 8.
Haha, lies and statistics indeed. If all players are missing the same amount (1 in 1000) due to skid, skid is not a bigger problem for 1 guy than for another. His make or miss ability outside of skid isn't a factor in a discussion about skid. Looking at it another way, if the discussion was "missing due to getting distracted by something", then shane may have more misses due to sharking (per 1000 failed shots) than you will, but you can't say with a straight face it's a bigger problem for him because A. If anything he's less likely to be sharkable and B. It's a somewhat random and uncontrolled event, the 'problem' is equal for everyone.
If you wanted to make the argument that isn't not that random and can be controlled, I might buy that, in which case shane will take care to check conditions (probably more often than the rest of us since it's the only thing that can end his run).
I had a nasty one the other night, shooting over a side towards an 8 ball that was just to the side of the foot spot. I cut it slightly, it hit with a sound like a transmission dropping, then drove straight into the rail (even though I cut it, it went dead straight). My opponent and I both just started laughing.
If you wanted to make the argument that isn't not that random and can be controlled, I might buy that, in which case shane will take care to check conditions (probably more often than the rest of us since it's the only thing that can end his run).
I had a nasty one the other night, shooting over a side towards an 8 ball that was just to the side of the foot spot. I cut it slightly, it hit with a sound like a transmission dropping, then drove straight into the rail (even though I cut it, it went dead straight). My opponent and I both just started laughing.
Let me turn the scenario around a bit. Let's say I was a wizard and nobody doubted my magic.
I walk into a poolroom and offer for sale a magic potion. Whoever drinks my potion will miss one fewer time per tournament match.
How much is my potion worth to YOU?
How much is it worth to the average C player?
How much is it worth to SVB?
It's worth very little to the C player, who misses multiple times per game, and it's pretty unlikely to change the outcome of a match.
For a top player who misses only a couple times per match, it would be HUGE and would be worth quite a lot.
Agreed?
Now instead of a potion that causes the player to miss one FEWER time per match, imagine I threatened a curse that caused the player to miss one MORE time per match. For the same reason as above, my threat would barely get the C player's attention. And I'd have Shane shaking in his boots...
Skid most definitely IS a bigger problem for better players,
I see your point, I guess the way I look at is: it's not that the pro has a larger problem with skid. He has the exact same problem with it as you or I do. The difference is he makes balls that you or I would miss... 95% vs. 50%, right? Per 1000 SHOTS (not 1000 misses), his skid problem is the same as yours or mine. So the big difference is he doesn't miss due to other unrelated reasons.
IMO the correct perspective here is... you and I have a larger problem with missing the makeable balls. My ability to make that shot only 50% of the time is the problem, not shane's occasional miss due to skid/earthquakes/heart failure/bad gas. The focus should be on controllable issues, rather than stuff you can't do anything about.
IMO the correct perspective here is... you and I have a larger problem with missing the makeable balls. My ability to make that shot only 50% of the time is the problem, not shane's occasional miss due to skid/earthquakes/heart failure/bad gas. The focus should be on controllable issues, rather than stuff you can't do anything about.
Oddly I hit a lot of shots soft and I also miss a lot. Hmmmmmm
I did hit a shot the other day that was short so I hit it slow with some english and I saw it skid (my first time! noticing it) it made me miss and lose the game so yes it pissed me off.
So the fix is to hit them harder or with top?
yeah, it's the top... in fact at least one guy has said it only happens with top and I suspect he's right, I can't ever remember skidding with draw. Too bad we can't play all position with draw...
To be real extra specific, if you hit with top but not hard, it's almost the same effect as hitting dead center and letting the table's natural forward roll take over. And that's the sweet spot for skidding. I don't think I've ever seen a force-follow shot (where you drill it with enough top that the CB appears to bend a little in its path) lead to a skid.
I guess if I had to think of a surefire way to avoid it, either don't ever baby a ball with top or hit the ball with a touch of outside english even when you don't need it. This apparently decreases the odds of skid and reduces the normal throw you get from any cut shot.
To be real extra specific, if you hit with top but not hard, it's almost the same effect as hitting dead center and letting the table's natural forward roll take over. And that's the sweet spot for skidding. I don't think I've ever seen a force-follow shot (where you drill it with enough top that the CB appears to bend a little in its path) lead to a skid.
I guess if I had to think of a surefire way to avoid it, either don't ever baby a ball with top or hit the ball with a touch of outside english even when you don't need it. This apparently decreases the odds of skid and reduces the normal throw you get from any cut shot.