Ok another run out test...
- Thread starter veilside81
- Start date
If we beckon back to the original question....
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Alway same situation... Hill hill your playing the match of your life bla bla bla... How would you run this out in a high percentage mode ??
I think that eliminates any safety play from the equation.
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Alway same situation... Hill hill your playing the match of your life bla bla bla... How would you run this out in a high percentage mode ??
I think that eliminates any safety play from the equation.
Going for the shot versus playing safe is a preference thing here. I think, the most important thing is that you don't disturb the 8/9. Leave them alone and no matter how you leave your opponent, there's a reasonable chance you'll return to the table. Move either one and there's a chance you'll simplify things for him.
philw said:
My feeling on that is that, ideally, I would play the "correct" shot whether it was hill-hill or 0-0. Having the self-discipline to play safe, because it's the correct shot, in a hill-hill situation would win you more matches than the alternative, in my opinion.
Having a table at home has its advantages, I guess. I set the shot up and played the safe (thinning the 7 and sending the cue ball 2 rails to the same rail that the 8/9 are on), and I hooked myself like 8 times in a row. Then I tried to get out and, honestly, out of 10 attempts I think I got out about half the time. If we're playing "percentage pool" here, I would have to say that the safe, at least in my case, is a FAR higher percentage shot for me. If my opponent gets up and kicks me safe, or slops something in, well I can't be too upset about that. I'd feel like I did the right thing and just didn't get rewarded for it. It happens. I know that, if I continuously do the right things, I'll be rewarded more often than not.
I suspect that many people here who are saying "go for the shot" just can't really see the difficulty in the out based on the diagram. When you set this up on a real table, this is far from a cake-walk. You have no chance of holding the cue ball up for a shot on the 8 in the lower pocket, so you either have to try to roll the 7 in, playing the cue ball back to about where it started from, or you have to play the cue ball back and forth either to where the cue ball started from or, if you can hit it dead perfect, above the 8 for a shot in the lower corner pocket. I guess a couple other possibilities are that you end up with some sort of bank on the 8, you bump the 8 with the cue ball and end up with a shot, or you bump the 9 and [luckily] end up with a shot. I don't like any of those options for my dough.
To be honest, being that I do feel the safe is the better percentage play (at least in my case - I might think differently if I played like Efren), I'd be LESS apt to fire at it in a hill-hill situation. I wish I could say that I always made the right choice, but I TRY to always play what I feel is the highest percentage shot and that would be even more true in a hill-hill situation.
Neil,
Thanks for being open minded and trying it. It's always good to learn a new way to approach a situation at the table...
Russ
Thanks for being open minded and trying it. It's always good to learn a new way to approach a situation at the table...
Russ
Jimmy,
I think that a lot of players see Mika Immonen fire in some ridiculous shot and get perfect position, but don't notice the fact that he played smart pool up to that point, and is up on his opponent by 7 racks...
Oh yeah... And the opponent hasn't been able to run out tough racks.
All of these things matter when you are looking at whether to go for a shot or not. If you've shot the dude's n*ts off so far in the match, then yeah.. Go for the shot... If you are hill-hill???? It means you both either play like God, or both of you have missed a few opportunities along the way.
I would go so far as to say more games are lost by going for a shot in this situation than by making some awesome runout. Hill-hill is always fraught with tension, and it's just too easy to misstroke coming off the rail when you know if you miss, you lose.
There's no such thing as "playing this one thin for safety." If you miss this shot, unless you get lucky enough to snuggle up directly behind the 8 or 9, you are selling out either an easy shot, or a lock up safe.
Russ
I think that a lot of players see Mika Immonen fire in some ridiculous shot and get perfect position, but don't notice the fact that he played smart pool up to that point, and is up on his opponent by 7 racks...
Oh yeah... And the opponent hasn't been able to run out tough racks.
All of these things matter when you are looking at whether to go for a shot or not. If you've shot the dude's n*ts off so far in the match, then yeah.. Go for the shot... If you are hill-hill???? It means you both either play like God, or both of you have missed a few opportunities along the way.
I would go so far as to say more games are lost by going for a shot in this situation than by making some awesome runout. Hill-hill is always fraught with tension, and it's just too easy to misstroke coming off the rail when you know if you miss, you lose.
There's no such thing as "playing this one thin for safety." If you miss this shot, unless you get lucky enough to snuggle up directly behind the 8 or 9, you are selling out either an easy shot, or a lock up safe.
Russ
so what are we waiting for??
It seems that no one wants to go for the possible win. (I say possible because the 8 is no treat). I disagree that "you know if you miss, you lose." There are very few spots on the table that you can leave the 7 that will result in a sure loss.
OK... we play safe... then what...? Let's say we play safe and end up with a shot on the 7 that is easier to make, but now good position on the 8 is more difficult. Are we in better shape? I don't believe so.
Sooner or later (if we're lucky enough to get the opportunity) we have to commit to a shot to try and win the game. The present shot leaves us a reasonable opportunity make the 7 and get the CB in position for a good chance for the win. If we make the 7 and don't like the shot on the 8... time to re-evaluate and go from there. If we miss the 7... our opponent still has to make the 7 AND get good on the 8. (By "good on the 8", I mean having a shot that will have a high expectation of finishing the game).
Around and around it goes... "you're damned if you do... and damned if you don't".
There are times you will go for the 7, make it and WIN the match.
There are times you will go for the 7, make it and LOSE the match.
There are times you will play safe and win the match.
There are times you will play safe and lose the match.
Do we learn anything from this? Probably not... because we don't pay enough attention to really know our history of success and failures in these situations... nor should we...
Just play...
Russ Chewning said:
It seems that no one wants to go for the possible win. (I say possible because the 8 is no treat). I disagree that "you know if you miss, you lose." There are very few spots on the table that you can leave the 7 that will result in a sure loss.
OK... we play safe... then what...? Let's say we play safe and end up with a shot on the 7 that is easier to make, but now good position on the 8 is more difficult. Are we in better shape? I don't believe so.
Sooner or later (if we're lucky enough to get the opportunity) we have to commit to a shot to try and win the game. The present shot leaves us a reasonable opportunity make the 7 and get the CB in position for a good chance for the win. If we make the 7 and don't like the shot on the 8... time to re-evaluate and go from there. If we miss the 7... our opponent still has to make the 7 AND get good on the 8. (By "good on the 8", I mean having a shot that will have a high expectation of finishing the game).
Around and around it goes... "you're damned if you do... and damned if you don't".
There are times you will go for the 7, make it and WIN the match.
There are times you will go for the 7, make it and LOSE the match.
There are times you will play safe and win the match.
There are times you will play safe and lose the match.
Do we learn anything from this? Probably not... because we don't pay enough attention to really know our history of success and failures in these situations... nor should we...
Just play...
Blackjack's shot was the first to come to mind, but i was suprised nobody came up with this:
its fairly easy to pull off and takes most of the speed control out of the question as you pretty much have half a table to leave a major problem for your opponent.
its fairly easy to pull off and takes most of the speed control out of the question as you pretty much have half a table to leave a major problem for your opponent.
This senario is very difficult to get out on....I just went down stairs on the home table and tried to play the 7 and get shape on the 8...its just too difficut to pull off with the set on the line....IMO the safety was much easier.
Shortside K said:
Because the "possible win", shooting at the 7, just isn't very probable.
I like my odds much better with my opponent kicking at the 7. Am I guaranteed to win? Nope. Will I win more often than I will lose with my opponent kicking at the 7? I'd bet on it.
Edit: I'm going to add that 1) getting out isn't very high percentage FOR ME. If I shot as straight as <insert some straight shooter's name here>, I might think differently, and 2) if the 9-ball were somewhere else, then I'd probably be trying to make the 7.
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Masayoshi said:
"its fairly easy to pull off"?????
Did you actually attempt this shot, or did you just look at it on screen and make a guess? I mean, the "its fairly easy to pull off" insinuates that you actually attempted the shot on a real table.
I'm sorry, but:
1. You would have to hit the ball in the center, and more likely, below center to get that action on the cue ball. Note: You are frozen to the rail, so you would have to jack up.
2. To get the cue ball to land where you diagrammed, it looks more like 1 1/2 to 2 table lengths of travel on the 7, which is no good.
3. Because of the way the cue ball is coming across the 7 ball, the cue ball will pick up right english. In order for the cue ball to follow your path, I'm thinking somewhere between a tip to a tip and a half of left english.
So, in summary, ignoring the lengthened 7 ball travel, you are looking at jacking up with at least a tip of left english, with a fairly firm speed, and you expect to be accurate on the hit, as anything less than perfect on the hit will leave a very good return shot.. Did I pretty much cover it all?
I mean, if you actually performed this shot on a table, and these are the results you got, and it is in fact "fairl easy to pull off", then hats off to you. But I don't think that's the case. I think you pulled a fantasy shot out of the bag and arbitrarily labeled it "easy to pull off".
I mean, we really do want your input, but if you have an untested idea, please word it like "Would this work?", or "Here's an idea."
Please let us know if you actually tested this shot and got these results. I am very curious.
Russ
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dabarbr said:
Jimmy M. said:
+1.
Funny, I had nearly the exact layout 2 nights ago, and this safety was the option I chose. I didn't have to get ball-in-hand as a result, but I did. I'm not a great player, but for me, this is the correct shot.
I guess it doesn't pass the "run out test" though. Hehe.
Russ Chewning said:
actually, i shoot the shot fairly often, albeit most of the times not on the rail but in this case its not so different. because you arent shooting the cue ball perpendicular to the rail you dont need to jack up quite as much. plus, you dont need as much english as it seems, half a tip should be more than enough, in fact no english would come up with decent results as long as you avoid the scratch. have you actually tried the shot? its much easier than it looks once you know the shot. one more thing, what i posted was the best case scenario you can pull off. there is plently of room for error with the main goal being leaving the cue ball and 7 at opposite ends of the table ( and not nearly straight in).
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possible conclusions
I tried these shots tonight at the local room. This is my conclusion. There is no way that some of these safe shots can be made based on the positon of the balls shown on the diagrams. I know that viewing a table layout can be misconcieving, so here is my evaluation.
Blackjack, there is no way that your shot can be executed at the angle that the balls are shown in the diagram. I tried this and the 7 doesn't roll far enough to get behind a ball for a hook on your safe and there is no way that you can hit the top rail two rails after hitting the 7 ball. The cue will only go two rails into the the rail above the 8 ball. It doesn't matter how thin you hit it. Too thick and you scratch.
The shot in the corner of making the 7 ball wasn't exactly the best either. I made it several times, but, the problem was that I either came up perfect on the 8 ball, or, had an angle that gave me a problem. 50/50 at best.
The shot that I found was the most consistant was Jude's recommendation of shooting the 7 ball two rails into the head rail. This proved more consistant and even if it was shot softly, the angle was still there to cause havoc to the opponent.
This would be my solution to the table arrangement.
I tried these shots tonight at the local room. This is my conclusion. There is no way that some of these safe shots can be made based on the positon of the balls shown on the diagrams. I know that viewing a table layout can be misconcieving, so here is my evaluation.
Blackjack, there is no way that your shot can be executed at the angle that the balls are shown in the diagram. I tried this and the 7 doesn't roll far enough to get behind a ball for a hook on your safe and there is no way that you can hit the top rail two rails after hitting the 7 ball. The cue will only go two rails into the the rail above the 8 ball. It doesn't matter how thin you hit it. Too thick and you scratch.
The shot in the corner of making the 7 ball wasn't exactly the best either. I made it several times, but, the problem was that I either came up perfect on the 8 ball, or, had an angle that gave me a problem. 50/50 at best.
The shot that I found was the most consistant was Jude's recommendation of shooting the 7 ball two rails into the head rail. This proved more consistant and even if it was shot softly, the angle was still there to cause havoc to the opponent.
This would be my solution to the table arrangement.
Blackjack said:
I think the correct way to put it is that it doesn't work for you. I'd shoot this safety in a heartbeat. I do realize that some players may not have the speed control necessary to make this shot - or the accuracy for the hit, but I possess both. I teach shots like this to my students and have them practice it. This is an elementary safety.
FWIW, I played (basically) this same shot on Louis Ulrich in a tournament back in September and I got ball in hand for doing so. So much for it not working.
lol
Please feel free to youtube it for me.
Jude Rosenstock said:
I didn't recreate steev's original pic but basically it was hitting the left side of the 7 with a touch of draw vs. your version of hitting the ball fatter with probably left.
I think you're overstating the complication of the rail, or maybe ours are a bit low and easy to work with. From this position I can jack up a bit (less than 45 degrees I think) and have the cue ball hit the 7 with at least center ball action, or even a little backspin... enough to do steev's safe. Yours seems just as good but I'd probably jack up and try to really tuck behind the 8-9.