OK lets start some trouble LOL (Diamond System)

There are more systems than any of us have time for.
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gerard soriano said:
it is far from guessing
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I would call it an estimate. Educated estimate being the most accurate. With different conditions and variables that change even with the weather. 🤷‍♂️
The numbers gives me a baseline then I consider the results I got when testing during warm up. Everyone tests the rails first, Right?
 
Had to take a swing at an internet quote that's easier to follow. Those little """"""" "s confused me. Wink
Dan said:
"In Hoppe's book on how to play billiards is a long section on the diamond system, charts showing how to count the spots on the rails and figure out where to aim by using arithmetic. Now that is a joke, because he was not a system player. I went out to the Navy Pier one morning during the 1950 tournament to practice and there was Hoppe all alone in the hall. He had the book open and was shooting shots from the diagrams... trying out the systems. He looked up at me and said, 'You know, Dan, it works. But you need a perfect stroke.'

Those charts were put in the book by Bryon Schoeman and a lot of them are haywire. Sometimes one of my students will show me that book and say, 'Look at this McGoorty. Hoppe says you can hit the rail here and end up there.'

'My boy,' I say, 'it can't be done. Those charts are just pretty pictures.'

Not only did Hoppe not use the diamond system, he had nothing to do with developing it. That was done by Copulus, Layton, and Clarence Jackson.

Guys like Hoppe, Cochran, and Scaefer, they knew the table so well, all the angles, all the returns, they didn't need to use a system. they could get four out of two by elevating the cue a little and putting a touch of masse on the ball. The system? What system? F**k the system."
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gregcantrall said:
I would call it an estimate. Educated estimate being the most accurate. With different conditions and variables that change even with the weather. 🤷‍♂️
The numbers gives me a baseline then I consider the results I got when testing during warm up. Everyone tests the rails first, Right?
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gregcantrall said:
I would call it an estimate. Educated estimate being the most accurate. With different conditions and variables that change even with the weather. 🤷‍♂️
The numbers gives me a baseline then I consider the results I got when testing during warm up. Everyone tests the rails first, Right?
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I would agree, The Diamonds are the starting point/ baseline. Being able to adjust is a absolute ! and when teaching any "System" there must be a starting point IMHO
 
The short rail system that has the first diamond a 3 and middle diamond a 5 is the system that I have used successfully the most in competition. Knowing that if I hit it right it could work. 🤷‍♂️ When it does work and I make a 2 rail kick, my opponent often feels like it was a kick in the gut. 🤷‍♂️
Knowing what number gets me 3 rails to the corner is the first check I make on a new table. With the cue over the corner going to diamond 2 on the opposite side should get me to the third diamond on the third rail and then to the opposite corner. So I throw one up and see where it lands. If it goes in fine I then check the short rail system.
Multiple rail kicks are easier for me to adjust than the multiple rail banks as it's harder to control the side transfered to the object ball. Playing 8 ball often the natural line is blocked but enough rail available to make the shot with a little special sauce on whitey. 🤷‍♂️
Edit: Back in the day my ring game name was Kicks Like A Mule. 😉
 
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gerard soriano said:
So I just had a thought, while giving a lesson today on kicking, someone said to me, He was told the XYZ 20+40 system is better. I thought to myself if the inventers of this Great Wonderful game wanted us to use # they would have put them on the table instead of Diamonds IMHO I also know there is more than one way to skin a (Left blank in fear of peta)
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Overly serious response: You can't put the numbers on the table, because the references change, depending on what side of the table you are on. Like, they flip 180-deg going to the opposite side.
 
straightline said:
You have to learn what it is before you can learn what it feels like.
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Yup. There was a PokerStars commercial back in the poker boom in which Daniel Negreanu makes a sick read quickly and says something like 'after playing so much, you don't think it, you feel it'.

Well, it takes a while of thinking it and watching results before you instinctively 'feel' it. The subconscious mind is indeed far superior to the conscious mind and can way outperform it, but we still need to build up conscious competence before we can just let the subconscious run the show. Systems are a good starting point. After some time applying systems, you just start seeing the lines.
 
A very good friend of mine, and a FAR better player than I am, was showing me one of those kicking systems, with the diamonds numbered, an such. I could see how it worked, and he certainly proved it. There is just no way that I could process all that math in real time. I'd be doing math in the air with my fingers or something, lol
 
justadub said:
A very good friend of mine, and a FAR better player than I am, was showing me one of those kicking systems, with the diamonds numbered, an such. I could see how it worked, and he certainly proved it. There is just no way that I could process all that math in real time. I'd be doing math in the air with my fingers or something, lol
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lol. nah. the difficulty with systems is remembering how to label the diamonds and what to add/take away from what. The actual arithmetic is child's play.
 
20 years ago a fine gentleman screen-name Dead Aim posted a series he called "Kicking Academy" here on AZ. I found it most useful and greatly appreciated his efforts.


The above search will provide links to his posts. Blackjack posted a link to a PDF with all material, but that link is long dead. There are also some wonderful comments from AZ forum members past and present.

Hope this helps.

Dave
 
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DaveK said:
20 years ago a fine gentleman screen-name Dead Aim posted a series he called "Kicking Academy" here on AZ. I found it most useful and greatly appreciated his efforts.


The above search will provide links to his posts. Blackjack posted a link to a PDF with all material, but that link is long dead. There are also some wonderful comments from AZ forum members past and present.

Hope this helps.

Dave
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A link to a PDF of the Kicking Academy material is at the bottom of this page on Dr. Dave's site;

billiards.colostate.edu

Diamond Systems for Aiming Kick Shots - Dr. Dave Pool Info

How do diamond systems work? All of the most common and useful banking and kicking systems (those listed below, and others) are described, illustrated, and demonstrated on Vol. IV of the Video Encyclopedia of Pool Shots. Here’s an introduction to the most important diamond systems: The simplest...
billiards.colostate.edu billiards.colostate.edu
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Dude, how about a trigger warning before using that word? You know it causes an allergic reaction for some here...

pj
chgo
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Nothing even close to the number of years and allergic reaction from three letters of the alphabet. #'s 3-20-5.
I dare not print it because, especially for you who had the very first allergic reaction, it could cause a major brain aneurism
and it would be bye-bye PJ. BAAROOOM!

 
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Diamond system is merely a guide. All tables play differently along with weather conditions, table assembly, age, etc. Like Finance and Women,.... there is no "Holy Grail."
 
gerard soriano said:
So I just had a thought, while giving a lesson today on kicking, someone said to me, He was told the XYZ 20+40 system is better. I thought to myself if the inventers of this Great Wonderful game wanted us to use # they would have put them on the table instead of Diamonds IMHO I also know there is more than one way to skin a (Left blank in fear of peta)
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The numbers would have to change depending on where the person was shooting from... Tough tech for the time when billiards was invented.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
Nothing even close to the number of years and allergic reaction from three letters of the alphabet. #'s 3-20-5.
I dare not print it because, especially for you who had the very first allergic reaction, it could cause a major brain aneurism
and it would be bye-bye PJ. BAAROOOM!

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lol - right on cue.

pj
chgo
 
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