Okay - Lets have it out! CNC vs. Non CNC'd made cues

[Snapshot9]

In the past, I have seen quite a few comments in reference to cues made with a CNC vs. Cues made by other means (Craftsman skills).

My particular cuemaker happens to make both types of cues. I also have
dwelled in the Computer area about 30 years, and realize both the pluses
and minuses that computerized equipement can bring to a craft.

I will state my opinions and analysis of the subject later on, but right now
I would like to get some of your opinions, and what you believe are the benefits to one method over the other.

So, I guess it is the age old argument of: Art vs. Science in a way.

 

[hustlefinger]

So, I guess it is the age old argument of: Art vs. Science in a way.

I don’t agree with this.

I believe a CNC mill is just another tool for an artistic means. No different than a wood chisel. All the design, creativity and thought come’s from the cuemaker, right?

I’m not a cue maker, but that’s my opinion.

Rick

 

[ARM9BALLER]

I think it depends on how you look at it. Some things just can't be done by hand and vice versa. As far as points go, I have a lot more respect for a cuemaker that does his points by hand, are razor sharp, and are dead even.

 

[Koop]

I think it depends on how you look at it. Some things just can't be done by hand and vice versa. As far as points go, I have a lot more respect for a cuemaker that does his points by hand, are razor sharp, and are dead even.

I agree.

I think with me it has a lot to do with inlay work.
I love sharp edges so whether or not the inlay is cut using CNC makes no difference. What matters to me is if the maker takes the time after to sharpen the round edges.

Koop

 

[JimBo]

In the past, I have seen quite a few comments in reference to cues made with a CNC vs. Cues made by other means (Craftsman skills).

My particular cuemaker happens to make both types of cues. I also have
dwelled in the Computer area about 30 years, and realize both the pluses
and minuses that computerized equipement can bring to a craft.

I will state my opinions and analysis of the subject later on, but right now
I would like to get some of your opinions, and what you believe are the benefits to one method over the other.

So, I guess it is the age old argument of: Art vs. Science in a way.

You're cuemaker?? LOL.
I think the problem is just uneducated people, you may just be one.
The problem is never CNC or not, it's how you use the technology. I have heard debates over spliced -v- CNC points or sharp -v- rounded inlays, but the use of the CNC isn't and shouldn't be an issue, when used the right way most people don't even think about it and can't tell the difference. I'm not sure I get your question but I like sharp inlays and spliced points.

Jim

 

[ScottR]

I think it depends on how you look at it. Some things just can't be done by hand and vice versa. As far as points go, I have a lot more respect for a cuemaker that does his points by hand, are razor sharp, and are dead even.

ARM, I'm not starting on you here, but I have to take this to the extreme and ask . . . . . does "by hand" mean that they scratch out the points with their fingernails?

Cutting points involves tools, normally power tools; mills, radial arm saws, routers, CNC mills, etc. Sharp points can be achieved with any of these methods; sometimes using other tools (can you say Xacto knife?).

Inlays can also be done using a variety of tools (powered or manual, computer controlled or not) and can be rounded or sharp.

Can you say, "right tool for the job"? Tools are constantly invented, modified or or abandoned as artisans and tradespeople strive to find a better way to accomplish a given task. Could Jerry McWorter, Thomas Wayne, Joe Gold, Keith Josey, etc. achieve their design without CNC? Theoretically, yes. Realistically, it would take an exponential increase in time and probably not be as clean and accurate.

Using CNC does not invalidate a cue maker's work in any way. While you can argue whether spliced points add or detract from structural integrity, inlays are just decoration and don't affect playability. Many more parts of the cue affect how it plays waayy more than whether an ivory diamond in the butt sleeve was cut with a chisel, a pantograph or a CNC mill.

To me, the question is what do you like the look of? As the tag line below my avatar says, I like the traditional look. That didn't stop me from drooling over Jerry McWorter's masterpieces at VF any less than the Barry Szamboti delivered to Ken. Wellllll, maybe just a little less.

 

[ScottR]

I think that when ever technology is added to an industry the price and value of the product should go down. It is no longer unique and supply is only limited to the amount of equipment the cue maker chooses to employ. It has nothing to do with quality, just supply and demand. You can argue machines will do better and more accurate work then the craftsman himself. If tomorrow South West was producing 25000 cues a year they would no longer be of much value.

So, using your line of reasoning, todays cars have lower quality and are not as valuable (adjusted for inflation and what you are getting; reliability, power, safety) as cars from 50 years ago?

I know I'm stretching your comment. But, isn't it really what you do with changes and technology? When do you stop trying to improve the methods of cue construction and say, "this is as good as it gets, no more new tools"??

 

[DelaWho???]

CNC is just a TOOL

Lets say I'm a well respected cue maker who produces a high quality cue......I've been doing it for years my work is well renouned and in high demand.....but maybe my eyes aren't what they used to be or I've got the start of a Parkinson tremor. If it's still my design and I'm still making the cuts now with the help of a computer....does that make my work of art any less valuable......???? Would you even be able to tell I used CNC?

Of course I'm not a well respected Cue Maker I'm just.....

McCue Banger McCue

 

[macguy]

So, using your line of reasoning, todays cars have lower quality and are not as valuable (adjusted for inflation and what you are getting; reliability, power, safety) as cars from 50 years ago?

I know I'm stretching your comment. But, isn't it really what you do with changes and technology? When do you stop trying to improve the methods of cue construction and say, "this is as good as it gets, no more new tools"??

I actually deleted what I wrote because why get into this but, what I am saying that what CNC does is make it possible for a cuemaker to increase production. You can set up machines that will turn 6 or 8 shafts and butts at a time with one guy overseeing the operation. That should translate to the end product having less value even if it is a better product, due to supply and demand.

 

[ScottR]

I actually deleted what I wrote because why get into this but, what I am saying that what CNC does is make it possible for a cuemaker to increase production. You can set up machines that will turn 6 or 8 shafts and butts at a time with one guy overseeing the operation. That should translate to the end product having less value even if it is a better product, due to supply and demand.

That part of your position I can get behind.

No more $250 shafts!!!!

 

[TomShaw-P&B]

A CNC cutout can be made into a razor sharp point in a few minutes by hand finishing it. I agree that a CNC set-up is a tool for the artist in the same vein as a wrist rest used by a painter.

Some people try to divide it into tools and power-assisted tools, but as one maker told me, "If you want a so-called handmade cue find a guy that whittles."

If you compare the beauty of todays cues with those from the crude lathe and drill press hole days of Rambow it's pretty hard to argue that CNC shouldn't be used.

T

 

[ARM9BALLER]

ARM, I'm not starting on you here, but I have to take this to the extreme and ask . . . . . does "by hand" mean that they scratch out the points with their fingernails?

Cutting points involves tools, normally power tools; mills, radial arm saws, routers, CNC mills, etc. Sharp points can be achieved with any of these methods; sometimes using other tools (can you say Xacto knife?).

Inlays can also be done using a variety of tools (powered or manual, computer controlled or not) and can be rounded or sharp.

Can you say, "right tool for the job"? Tools are constantly invented, modified or or abandoned as artisans and tradespeople strive to find a better way to accomplish a given task. Could Jerry McWorter, Thomas Wayne, Joe Gold, Keith Josey, etc. achieve their design without CNC? Theoretically, yes. Realistically, it would take an exponential increase in time and probably not be as clean and accurate.

Using CNC does not invalidate a cue maker's work in any way. While you can argue whether spliced points add or detract from structural integrity, inlays are just decoration and don't affect playability. Many more parts of the cue affect how it plays waayy more than whether an ivory diamond in the butt sleeve was cut with a chisel, a pantograph or a CNC mill.

To me, the question is what do you like the look of? As the tag line below my avatar says, I like the traditional look. That didn't stop me from drooling over Jerry McWorter's masterpieces at VF any less than the Barry Szamboti delivered to Ken. Wellllll, maybe just a little less.

Like I said as far as points are concerned,

Tools -Yes by all means use all the tools you can and do it by hand.

I just don't see punching in a bunch of coordinates and spectating while the machine does the work as doing a custom job.

Maybe craftsmenship is the word I'm looking for...

 

[Jigger]

Is CNC the Devil ?

Clarification Please:

Am I correct in thinking that even the "elite cue makers" often use CNC and then re-cut the blunt areas by hand to make their razor sharp points, veneers and inlays?

If that's the case I see no problem with CNC.

 

[macguy]

You're cuemaker?? LOL.
I think the problem is just uneducated people, you may just be one.
The problem is never CNC or not, it's how you use the technology. I have heard debates over spliced -v- CNC points or sharp -v- rounded inlays, but the use of the CNC isn't and shouldn't be an issue, when used the right way most people don't even think about it and can't tell the difference. I'm not sure I get your question but I like sharp inlays and spliced points.

Jim

Even sharp points can be produced with CNC. The rounded points is due to the radius of the tool and the point just being an inlay. You can set up a CNC machine to cut spliced points, do the indexing and so on. The round point, spliced point debate is not a CNC debate but a construction debate. You can do round points (Inlayed points) with a manual machine if you wish.

 

[prolecat]

I had an intense arguement with a kid on my billiards team over this subject. Ive read articles online and it seems most professional opinions consider CNC routers to be just another creative tool used by artists/cuemakers in the making of their art. Just like any other tool. I agree with this side of the arguement, i think it still is just as artistic, and of course im pro technology.

They say CNC gets accurate down to the .0001 of an inch, and people could never get that consistent by hand.

I believe cuemakers still have to sit down and use their hands when operating a CNC machine.

But still this kid insisted that if cues are done on a CNC router then they are not handmade, nor custom cues. I was arguing with him about how i think predators are garbage, and he should get a coker. I quoted some sources i read online that say when you get a production cue, your gambling as to what quality wood you will have in your cue. due to high production rates of production cue companies like predator or mcdermott, the wood selection is not as meticulous as in say a southwest. You could get perfectly good wood, or you could get bad wood, with air pockets, or other defects. Someone quoted predators anual cue production to be somwhere in the 6 digits (maybe 250,000) meanwhile someone like Coker.. to be around 2000. If you think of their individual wood consumption, you should conclude that the wood used goes through a more meticulous selection process in shops where annual production rates are lower. Due to this fact i believe the hit is far superior in custom cues than production IMO.

It seems to be only the snappy narrow minded people that are quick to jump at this topic and say that CNC work is not "handmade" or "custom". Most knowledgeable, and experienced critics evaluate the topic on a much higher intellectual level, listing pro's and con's of each, and usually conclude that CNC work is new technology that helps cuemakers be more efficient and effective in their cue making.

Our arguement ended when he stated that he worked in a cuemakers shop for 10 years, in which i then said "then why are you looking into buying a schon?"

 

[TATE]

I think the problem is the perception that CNC=Rounded. This really started off with pantograph machines and router templates before CNC.

These are aesthetic issues. I personally HATE most of the cues I see with rounded points and rounded inlays, rounded points, etc. I especially don't like cues with rounded points and rounded veneers. A lot of this stuff looks like jig-saw puzzles and I think it's very unattractive.

The cues that bother me a lot are Joss (after 1975 or so) , Schon (after 1988 or so) , Nova, many Jacoby, some McDermott. There are some customs too. I think this also kills collectibility.

In my opinion they would be so much nicer if they had clean, crisp, sharp lines.

Other cues like Josey's and the Cog's have such intricate patterns and small bits that these barely rounded edges look OK to me and it wouldn't stop me from buying one.

Chris

 

[CaptiveBred]

I'm with macguy on the value. Its my number one problem with computerized cues... They should cost less because they require less labor to produce...

I don't mind if computers are used in certain aspects of the process. When computers are used for the aesthetics, it becomes a joke. "Joke" because its funny to hear people raving about inlays, points, and design work like their builder is the apex cue builder. It always makes me chuckle since they have no, or little, clue about how easy it is to design with cnc.

Ya, I said it! It is EASY to use cnc and design with it. The only people who don't agree with me have never used modern cnc tools. Learning a new video game requires more memory storage in your brain than good cnc programs. Some people just don't realize it and overrespect the artisan making the cues...

IMO, a quaility cnc cue maker will always sharpen up his work. He will never leave points or other inlays round unless the customer wants it that way. It is just lazy to let the cpu cut out the patterns then just glue em in and turn em down to finish. Pure lazy practice for a top dollar cue. Something like a production McDermott? Sure, leave em round and charge less...


High price cues are considered an art and thats why the "artists" charge more and their customers agree with the price. Based on that statement, lets look and the price difference between paintings, lithographs (printing press duplicates) and photographs.

If an artist was commissioned to hand paint a picture of Karen Corr wearing a tank top, what would that cost?

After the artist painted the picture, he sent it to a printing company to have liths made of it. How much should the infinite supply of prints sell for?

Lets go one step further. The same artist is to lazy to paint the pic so he does this - He takes a digital photo, uses photoshop to make it look like a painting, then sends it to the printer to make lithos to sell. Are those worth as much as the others or an original painting?


Cues can be thought of in the same way when it comes to computers... The painting crowd understands how to price artists works of art. Cue collectors are very uneducated, compared the the painting crowds, on how to value one piece of work compared to another. Seems like "looks" is the only thing most cue buyers ever think about...

 

[DaveK]

I'm with macguy on the value. Its my number one problem with computerized cues... They should cost less because they require less labor to produce...[/COLOR]

But the loaded labour rate for a shop full of expensive CNC equipment is a lot higher than the rate at a shop with a 60 year old South Bend. There is also the time to program the machine and/or design specific cuts, an overhead cost not incurred by non-CNC shops. I can see this CNC-costs-less arguement holding water for mass produced items, but for small runs the economy-of-scale benefits may not be there.

Dave

 

[Cornerman]

In the past, I have seen quite a few comments in reference to cues made with a CNC vs. Cues made by other means (Craftsman skills).
.

I hate this argument. I really do. It's not a question nor should it ever be a question of CNC vs. non-CNC. I'd love it if it were never asked again.

Before an answer could even be considered, you'd have to really understand what a CNC in cuemaking reallly means. I think that 99% of all cue buyers (and forums posters) really don't have a clue what CNC in cuemaking means, but those same people are willing to respond to a post about it.

Tools advance as technology advance. How a cuemaker uses the tools should be the consideration, not what tools should be used. Or else, you'd have to be asking questions like: lathe made or hand-whittled?

Some use CNC's to make inlay pockets and inlays.

Some use CNC's to taper shafts (Ray Schuler, for example, considering how many different tapers he offered)

Some use CNC's to turn butts partially (several).

Some use CNC's to make patterns for the pantograph inlay machines, but not use the CNC directly on the cue (Bella Sera)

Some will use CNC's to make flat-bottom points (several).

Some CNC users never do that (Ray Schuler only made pantograph/pantomilled points, which the uneducated might still call 'CNC' points).

People have to realize that cuemakers who use CNC technology are some of the finest craftsmen the cuemaking industry will ever know:

Ernie Gutierrez
Thomas Wayne
Samsara Cues
Leonard Bludworth
Jerry McWorter

etc., etc., etc.,

It's not like they put wood in one end, hit a button, and out pops a cue.

Fred

 

[SCCues]

CNC vs other means

In the past, I have seen quite a few comments in reference to cues made with a CNC vs. Cues made by other means (Craftsman skills).

My particular cuemaker happens to make both types of cues. I also have
dwelled in the Computer area about 30 years, and realize both the pluses
and minuses that computerized equipement can bring to a craft.

I will state my opinions and analysis of the subject later on, but right now
I would like to get some of your opinions, and what you believe are the benefits to one method over the other.

So, I guess it is the age old argument of: Art vs. Science in a way.

My preference is traditional styled veneered pointed cues (I don't care for the thin veneers that some cue makers use). I want my cue to have sharp even points and sharp pointed inlays are a must for it to look right. When I see a nice cue with rounded inlays I immediately think "why didn't the cue maker take the time to do the inlays correctly".
Whether it's CNC or other means is OK as long as the cue is built right.

SCCues