Olathe!!!! What A Joke!!!

It seems to me the real problem is just a flaw in the rules. No rules in any game (even outside of pool) should be based on 'honest effort'. It forces someone (ref or TD) to make judgment calls based on fuzzy stuff like "what was the player thinking", yet without it there's an opportunity to dump.

The rules for safeties, legal hits, jumps, and every other thing are cut and dried. At some point in the past they maybe had guesswork so the rules were adjusted to fix that problem. Why haven't the rules for ring games been adjusted to fix this problem too?

I dunno if it's a good idea, but one idea is to remove "option" and just force the next guy in line to shoot. If he doesn't like the shot he can play behind the line, and have the OB spotted if it's in an ugly place.

Maybe another fix would be to leave option in, but you cannot pass the shot back if you can see the ball. I dunno, that doesn't sound so hot either but at least it can't lead to dumping (I think?)
 
gopi-1 said:
I got your point hemicudas but the thing is, if there's no ripple, there's no
wave. It's all hearsay, that's why we don't hear these things about Filipinos
often.

I know for a fact that they ALWAYS play to win, savers or not except for a
few occasions (Kiamco vs. Gabica which is still unproven for the bonus money).
Most of the pool people assumed and predicted that Kiamco will win but
we've heard nothing out of the norm from the railbirds watching the finals.
There were no questionable misses, deliberately losing CB position, or dogged
shots from the two, specially Gabica.

That reminded me of the skins game between Deuel, Daulton?, Parica and
Sambajon. All Sambajon needs to do is to beat Parica to win the 72,000
skins that was up for grabs. Guess what? Parica played his heart out and
was even caught on TV mocking Sambajon with a wide grin on his face
dropping the balls in succession. They went to sudden death and Sambajon
eventually won the whole thing. It was sooo easy for Parica to lay up a li'l
bit if they were in cahoots but he didn't.
Click to expand...

LOL, that's kinda odd that they just suddenly started accussing Filipinos of coniving when Filipinos are not even complaining about this whole mess.
 
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gopi-1 said:
I got your point hemicudas but the thing is, if there's no ripple, there's no
wave. It's all hearsay, that's why we don't hear these things about Filipinos
often.

I know for a fact that they ALWAYS play to win, savers or not except for a
few occasions (Kiamco vs. Gabica which is still unproven for the bonus money).
Most of the pool people assumed and predicted that Kiamco will win but
we've heard nothing out of the norm from the railbirds watching the finals.
There were no questionable misses, deliberately losing CB position, or dogged
shots from the two, specially Gabica.

That reminded me of the skins game between Deuel, Daulton?, Parica and
Sambajon. All Sambajon needs to do is to beat Parica to win the 72,000
skins that was up for grabs. Guess what? Parica played his heart out and
was even caught on TV mocking Sambajon with a wide grin on his face
dropping the balls in succession. They went to sudden death and Sambajon
eventually won the whole thing. It was sooo easy for Parica to lay up a li'l
bit if they were in cahoots but he didn't.
Click to expand...

Gopi, I love the filipino players and they do play hard against each other most of the time, but there are exceptions. I was a railbird in Reno this year and I watched all the final matches closely. I told Mark I would do this. He wanted to know if anything funny was going on.

I don't want to burst your bubble but Gabica did lay down a little, just enough. He made one very questionable choice of balls one game, picking the balls that were tied up?? He failed to get out and left Kiamco with an open table. And in another game, after the break, he started with a very difficult first shot, hit it too hard and scratched. He had other choices that looked a lot better. This one was the most glaring.

That's about all it took for Warren to win easily 5-1 in the Finals. A couple of well executed mistakes which may have been hard to recognize by some people present. I watched Gabica play his last few matches, beating Shane and Kim among others. He was playing flawless pool.

It was no surprise though, as they had been traveling partners all across America for the last couple of months. Look, they made it look good and Mark paid out the bonus. Everyone went home happy. It doesn't change what I saw, and it doesn't make them bad guys either. Remember they both had to beat a host of good players to reach this final match. You can't take that away from them. Something like 228 players were in the Eight Ball division and it was loaded with talent.
 
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Good point Jay,

I must admit they will try hard to squeeze more money out of the system, but have you seen them "rob" another player by ganging on the poor guy?
 
crosseyedjoe said:
Good point Jay,

I must admit they will try hard to squeeze more money out of the system, but have you seen them "rob" another player by ganging on the poor guy?
Click to expand...

What I've been seeing for the last twenty odd years is a host of filipinos coming over here and taking on our best players and NEVER asking for a spot! They don't know spot. All they know is PLAY and play hard. They always end up giving up the spots, or hadn't you noticed.

I love the filipino style of play. These are pool warriors. Not just pool players. That is why they give everyone fits and win all across the globe. Now you know why I like them and admire them so much. These guys are old fashioned "get up on the table" and fight it out kind of guys. And I like that.

Trust me when our young superstar SVB goes over there later this year, he won't be walking into poolrooms and hearing everyone ask for the 6 out. Some young kid (yes, younger than him) will come up to him and quietly say "You want to play some Ten Ball?" And somewhere else he will walk into another room and some older guy who he has never seen or heard of, will give him fits at Rotation. Mark my words, it will happen in Manila.

That's one thing I love about the Philipines. Besides the pretty girls of course.
 
jay helfert said:
What I've been seeing for the last twenty odd years is a host of filipinos coming over here and taking on our best players and NEVER asking for a spot! They don't know spot. All they know is PLAY and play hard. They always end up giving up the spots, or hadn't you noticed.

I love the filipino style of play. These are pool warriors. Not just pool players. That is why they give everyone fits and win all across the globe. Now you know why I like them and admire them so much. These guys are old fashioned "get up on the table" and fight it out kind of guys. And I like that.

Trust me when our young superstar SVB goes over there later this year, he won't be walking into poolrooms and hearing everyone ask for the 6 out. Some young kid (yes, younger than him) will come up to him and quietly say "You want to play some Ten Ball?" And somewhere else he will walk into another room and some older guy who he has never seen or heard of, will give him fits at Rotation. Mark my words, it will happen in Manila.

That's one thing I love about the Philipines. Besides the pretty girls of course.
Click to expand...

Thank you, I'm just wasn't so thrilled that the thread became in one way a Filipino-bashing thread, as if the Filipinos are the ones complaining in the first place.
 
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Doc you really disappointed me about your post about the Filipinos. Do you really know what they go through to play throughout this great country of ours. Particularly in the early days. What it was like for them to travel to unknown parts like the deep south or midwest where the sight of a Filipino is a rarity. I know personally they had to take a lot of crap just to survive the everyday much less playing in a pool hall at all hours of the night. Afraid of being robbed and stiffed. They have such a gentle nature as is their culture but always had to play nice to survive as well. Always had to play by the rules because it was always tougher on them if they broke them.
I was in Kalamazoo at the US Open one pocket and of the hundreds of people there Jose and I were the only Asians. Can you imagine if you were in the Phillipines and was the only American in a rough joint. You'd stick to a fellow American and watch each others back. I know Ive been to many foreign countries and was glad to see a fellow landsman. We'd cover each others back. Thats not collusion its survival.
 
yobagua said:
Doc you really disappointed me about your post about the Filipinos. Do you really know what they go through to play throughout this great country of ours. Particularly in the early days. What it was like for them to travel to unknown parts like the deep south or midwest where the sight of a Filipino is a rarity. I know personally they had to take a lot of crap just to survive the everyday much less playing in a pool hall at all hours of the night. Afraid of being robbed and stiffed. They have such a gentle nature as is their culture but always had to play nice to survive as well. Always had to play by the rules because it was always tougher on them if they broke them.
I was in Kalamazoo at the US Open one pocket and of the hundreds of people there Jose and I were the only Asians. Can you imagine if you were in the Phillipines and was the only American in a rough joint. You'd stick to a fellow American and watch each others back. I know Ive been to many foreign countries and was glad to see a fellow landsman. We'd cover each others back. Thats not collusion its survival.
Click to expand...

I ref'd the final match in Lexington, Kentucky many years ago between Jose and Nick Varner. Remember, Nick lives right down the road in Owensboro. The place was packed with 500 screaming fans yelling for Nick to kick Jose's ass. At a critical juncture in the match, after a Jose break shot, Nick was left with the Cue ball about an inch from the One ball. This combo was aimed staight at the Nine. It looked like it may bank cross side.

Nick gets down and shoots right through the ball making a glaring (and loud) double hit. The Nine goes across the table and into the side. I immediately say FOUL! The crowd goes crazy. I hear all kinds of yells and most of them are bad. I look at Nick and say to him "You fouled, you hit the One ball twice". He looks at me and shakes his head and says "Well maybe I did". The crowd quieted down and I gave Jose BIH. He went on to win that match and the tournament. No one said anything to me afterward. I had made the right call.

You ask Jose. He'll remember this, I'm sure.
 
jay helfert said:
Gopi, I love the filipino players and they do play hard against each other most of the time, but there are exceptions. I was a railbird in Reno this year and I watched all the final matches closely. I told Mark I would do this. He wanted to know if anything funny was going on.

I don't want to burst your bubble but Gabica did lay down a little, just enough. He made one very questionable choice of balls one game, picking the balls that were tied up?? He failed to get out and left Kiamco with an open table. And in another game, after the break, he started with a very difficult first shot, hit it too hard and scratched. He had other choices that looked a lot better. This one was the most glaring.

That's about all it took for Warren to win easily 5-1 in the Finals. A couple of well executed mistakes which may have been hard to recognize by some people present. I watched Gabica play his last few matches, beating Shane and Kim among others. He was playing flawless pool.

It was no surprise though, as they had been traveling partners all across America for the last couple of months. Look, they made it look good and Mark paid out the bonus. Everyone went home happy. It doesn't change what I saw, and it doesn't make them bad guys either. Remember they both had to beat a host of good players to reach this final match. You can't take that away from them. Something like 228 players were in the Eight Ball division and it was loaded with talent.
Click to expand...



It takes a keen eye AND a deep knowledge of the game to find this
questionable selections of shots Jay and I'm pretty sure you're more than
qualified to judge these things. All I can say is, they (or may have not) did
this at no player's expense. The money was there for the taking, it's like
taking a candy from a baby, or so they say, but just like what you said,
they have to passed through the gauntlet before they could arrive in this
dream scenario.

Warren Kiamco was playing lights out at that time and every player have
their own unique patterns to get out. I used to play the harder shots first
to a) intimidate my opponent b) get a cosmo out, and or c) build my
confidence. Tied up balls after a break are almost always there, but it
shoudn't pose much of a problem, specially if we're speaking of Gabica's
caliber. All it takes is a little tickle and a careful planning.

Anyways, I really appreciate all the kind words you gave to all the Filipino
players Jay, but they shouldn't be the issue here as we haven't even heard
a whimper from Dennis, who took it like a man and conceded...
 
It has been some time back

and I was told to keep it under wraps at the time, but their was a time
when Shane McMinn went on the road with Corey for about 9 months.
 
The Saw said:
It was posted by James Walden and JCIN verified that in the post.... James fealt he got pinched, much the same that Dennis did. I sweated 7-8 hours of the webcast Sunday night and the one thing I will say for Dennis and James is that they were the only ones giving 110% honest effort every time they got a look at the table, IMO. They were trying to run out every single time no matter how tough the balls were laying. I didn't see that out of the others all of the time. It appeared to me that the later it went in the match Banks/SM weren't TRYING to run out when the balls were tough. Did anyone break the rules as they were set before the match? Not exactly, but that defipends on how you interpret "Honest Effort". If the 1 ball had not been passed back to Banks (the shot that prompted Dennis to unscrew) and Shane had shot the one and tried to use "honest effort" he may not have been able to run out (the balls were laying a little funny to run out) which would have sent Dennis back to the table and a chance to get back in the thick of things. And by the way, that one ball was a very easy shot for anyone above B player speed, much less pro calibre.... Jamie was mad when it happened, everyone that was watching the webcast knew that. But it speaks volumes to me that he is still mad about it after he won his bet! And him singling out Dan Tull for not putting a stop to it when it happened is justified. If it happened at a tournament that I was hosting they would have been put in check, post haste! And the coup de grace is that James Walden has publicly went on the record saying that he is sure that he got chopped and said that he will not go back to Shooters because of the way Dan let things transpire. I've seen James play more than most here and have never seen him get hot, whimper, or whine one single time! If James is hot, there really was/is a problem........

Saw
Click to expand...

Dan and Evelyn did not have time to react to the situation because Dennis did not complain to the tournament director he just QUIT. Also, I will repeat once again Shane and Mike were not conspiring to eliminate any players. Shane had an option to shoot or pass and he exercised his pass option...END OF STORY. I applaud Dan for putting on a very exciting and offensive tournament with a very nice pay out to the players.

-don
 
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