Old 9-ball players vs the New

[peteypooldude]

1 Ball pocketing even or I will give this to the older gen
2 Safety play....new gen
3 Kicking .....new gen
4 Breaking.....new gen
5 q ball control ....new gen
6 competition .....new gen....More good players today
This is how I see it
You don't have to agree because I don't agree with half of what I have read
And they were just opinions
Just like this:........:deadhorse:

 

[alstl]

1 Ball pocketing even or I will give this to the older gen
2 Safety play....new gen
3 Kicking .....new gen
4 Breaking.....new gen
5 q ball control ....new gen
6 competition .....new gen....More good players today
This is how I see it
You don't have to agree because I don't agree with half of what I have read
And they were just opinions
Just like this:........:deadhorse:

I disagree with safety play and kicking going to new generation. The reason is jump cues. That's why it drives Earl crazy. If you took a vote to ban jump cues you would get more votes in favor from the older generation.

I also give position play to the older generation because they played more 14.1; a lot of the younger guys play area position because they can get away with that in 9 ball.

 

[DrawtheRock]

They count

only about 50 pinyos.
why it have to be americans?
dont pinyos count?
i would say
archer
svb
hatch
rodney morris

They do count but I dont know a ton of old Pinoys to compare the new ones to. We were talking about how todays players are better..which I dont think they are. The Americans you mentioned are good but I dont see Hatch and Morris (even though they are good) beating those guys for the cash. If there were better players today..I think we could name 10 guys (americans) that could play them for cash and I dont think you can. I didnt even mention old players like Lassiter/Worst etc But there were others very good such as Rempe..etc

If you moved to straight pool that wouldnt even be a fair comparison because it really isnt played now.

In one pocket Ronnie Allen, Varner, Allen Hopkins (im sure Jay can name more)--you might be able to pick Frost and Cliff but who else? and then are they better than the older players?

Out of the Pinoys--who are the 50 that you would name to beat the older ones Effren, Parica, and Bustamante? Could you name three of the newer players that were better than them? I cant

In most sports the players have gotten better because of gains in training and nutrition--which makes them faster and stronger. Doesnt really apply to this sport at all--in fact the best players ( the pinoys) arent bigger, stronger, and probably arent even as healthy as the female players of today.

Again--definitely value your opinion and I think you are one of the best things happening in pool because you go out and GAMBLE. I think you would have definitely enjoyed playing in the 70's better than today because you would have been able to get a ton of action and I guarantee you one thing--you wouldnt have always had to be the one traveling to get a game--players would be going to Ohio to play you--not because you would lose your money but because you were willing to BET SOME GOOD COIN

 

[predator]

If the players of old were really as good as players of today, then we have several possible conclusions:

1. In 50 years the skill level of pool players hasn't progressed at all, not one little bit
2. We have reached what is humanly possible in this game some decades ago, so progress in skill level isn't even possible
3. Players in year 2150 won't be any better then the class of 1950 or the class of 2010 for that matter - in fact they'll watch old Efren clips on YouTube and will wonder why the hell can't they do what he did back in the glory days?

Take your pick.

 

[jay helfert]

I will add one thing to this discussion. The absolute best money player I ever saw at 9-Ball or Ten Ball was Jose Parica. Buddy is second. So these are two oldsters, both over 60. Jose was like the early version of Alex and Buddy was Shane before there was a Shane. One difference though, no one ever beat Buddy, and Shane loses once in a while. Buddy and Parica never played for whatever reason.

But overall I still think Parica was the best I ever saw. He played smart, had more heart than ten bulls and absolutely no dog in him. Alex can get a little careless once in a while. Parica didn't. He never gave anyone any air. Ask around to all the great players still alive from 20-25 years ago. See what they have to say. Parica bar-b-que'd them all! And gave up weight to boot. He beat Earl in his prime. He was the most feared money player for 20 years! And for good reason.

I truly believe the Parica of 20 years ago would have beaten Yang as well. He just had more game than anyone else. Jose was the best money player (and maybe the best pool player) I ever saw play the game. There are many great pool players today and a few good money players, but none quite like Parica. All these other guys (except for Yang) miss balls in big money matches. Parica might not miss a ball for twenty or thirty games at a time! Try fading that. No one could either.

 

[cuesmith]

I will add one thing to this discussion. The absolute best money player I ever saw at 9-Ball or Ten Ball was Jose Parica. Buddy is second. So these are two oldsters, both over 60. Jose was like the early version of Alex and Buddy was Shane before there was a Shane. One difference though, no one ever beat Buddy, and Shane loses once in a while. Buddy and Parica never played for whatever reason.

But overall I still think Parica was the best I ever saw. He played smart, had more heart than ten bulls and absolutely no dog in him. Alex can get a little careless once in a while. Parica didn't. He never gave anyone any air. Ask around to all the great players still alive from 20-25 years ago. See what they have to say. Parica bar-b-que'd them all! And gave up weight to boot. He beat Earl in his prime. He was the most feared money player for 20 years! And for good reason.

I truly believe the Parica of 20 years ago would have beaten Yang as well. He just had more game than anyone else. Jose was the best money player (and maybe the best pool player) I ever saw play the game. There are many great pool players today and a few good money players, but none quite like Parica. All these other guys (except for Yang) miss balls in big money matches. Parica might not miss a ball for twenty or thirty games at a time! Try fading that. No one could either.

I don't disagree with most of what you've said, but Buddy was beatable. In all the years Gary and I were road partners, Gary drew Buddy in tournament play about 6 or 7 times and believe it or not he beat Buddy almost every time. I'm not saying Gary was the better 9-ball player of the 2, but he had Buddy's number and it just happened to work out that way. A couple of times, after their matches, Buddy was a little "upset" about losing and woofed at Gary to gamble. We weren't stupid and realized that Gary didn't have the best of that situation and I certainly wasn't willing to give up 2-1 on the money by staking Gary against Buddy at anything but Bank pool, but he did have a winning record against him in tournament play. Probably a fluke, but it's true! He only beat Earl the one time in tournament play during that time period. Kim Davenport tried giving Gary the 8, 4 or 5 times and never won once trying that. But he never asked to adjust.

 

[real bartram]

They do count but I dont know a ton of old Pinoys to compare the new ones to. We were talking about how todays players are better..which I dont think they are. The Americans you mentioned are good but I dont see Hatch and Morris (even though they are good) beating those guys for the cash. If there were better players today..I think we could name 10 guys (americans) that could play them for cash and I dont think you can. I didnt even mention old players like Lassiter/Worst etc But there were others very good such as Rempe..etc

If you moved to straight pool that wouldnt even be a fair comparison because it really isnt played now.

In one pocket Ronnie Allen, Varner, Allen Hopkins (im sure Jay can name more)--you might be able to pick Frost and Cliff but who else? and then are they better than the older players?

Out of the Pinoys--who are the 50 that you would name to beat the older ones Effren, Parica, and Bustamante? Could you name three of the newer players that were better than them? I cant

In most sports the players have gotten better because of gains in training and nutrition--which makes them faster and stronger. Doesnt really apply to this sport at all--in fact the best players ( the pinoys) arent bigger, stronger, and probably arent even as healthy as the female players of today.

Again--definitely value your opinion and I think you are one of the best things happening in pool because you go out and GAMBLE. I think you would have definitely enjoyed playing in the 70's better than today because you would have been able to get a ton of action and I guarantee you one thing--you wouldnt have always had to be the one traveling to get a game--players would be going to Ohio to play you--not because you would lose your money but because you were willing to BET SOME GOOD COIN

alex
orcullo
yang

 

[peteypooldude]

I dont know who else on here has trouble being convinced on some of the claims made about older players. Sh1t we have gone backwards . Archer is just a mid range banger compared to the players that Graced this game 25 years ago it seems . How strong were they .....DAM SVB is third tier compared to the GODS of 25 years ago . All this information and people going to instructors must be a joke . We cant produce a b player compared to heart and guts of the old days . We video tape and analyze with all this technology and tools and for what . According to what I have read all we have done in 25 years has been come up with a jumpstick . STOP THE PRESS we are wasting our time . Get you a house cue ,don't go for the gimmicks of technology . We don't do 1 thing BETTER .
:banghead::bash::bow-down:

 

[alstl]

I dont know who else on here has trouble being convinced on some of the claims made about older players. Sh1t we have gone backwards . Archer is just a mid range banger compared to the players that Graced this game 25 years ago it seems . How strong were they .....DAM SVB is third tier compared to the GODS of 25 years ago . All this information and people going to instructors must be a joke . We cant produce a b player compared to heart and guts of the old days . We video tape and analyze with all this technology and tools and for what . According to what I have read all we have done in 25 years has been come up with a jumpstick . STOP THE PRESS we are wasting our time . Get you a house cue ,don't go for the gimmicks of technology . We don't do 1 thing BETTER .
:banghead::bash::bow-down:

Archer was around 25 years ago. He is by no means a young gun.

There are some great young players but I don't see guys like Efren hiding under their bed in fear.

 

[DrawtheRock]

Doesnt show that new players are better

alex
orcullo
yang

definitely 3 great players but are they better than the 3 older pinoys I named? I dont think so. They would be even matches at best. So I dont think you proved your point about new players being better than old. Just my opinion.

And out of the three you picked.

how do you like them against the 3 older players in One Pocket, Rotation or Banks?

 

[houmatroy]

The older players get the nod for playing on all equipment !

Today you'd have to give the nod to the pinoys to be able to play on any table under any condition...here in the states it has got down to simonis cloth with tight pockets being the norm..that being said..the older players had to adapt to play with whatever was on the table at the particular room...todays players more just play on the equipment they are comfortable on playing on. IMO

 

[Johnnyt]

Today you'd have to give the nod to the pinoys to be able to play on any table under any condition...here in the states it has got down to simonis cloth with tight pockets being the norm..that being said..the older players had to adapt to play with whatever was on the table at the particular room...todays players more just play on the equipment they are comfortable on playing on. IMO

I have to agree with you there. Playing on your home, homeroom, or a table copy of it is a big advantage. Back in the day there were all kinds of tables around. If you went to a strange room to play someone about the same speed on their table you could just about kiss the first set or first few games goodbye. Johnnyt

 

[real bartram]

Today you'd have to give the nod to the pinoys to be able to play on any table under any condition...here in the states it has got down to simonis cloth with tight pockets being the norm..that being said..the older players had to adapt to play with whatever was on the table at the particular room...todays players more just play on the equipment they are comfortable on playing on. IMO

when i played pool all the time
i went to every state and played on any table.

 

[peteypooldude]

Archer was around 25 years ago. He is by no means a young gun.

There are some great young players but I don't see guys like Efren hiding under their bed in fear.

Not even efren has got any credit in this thread,nor has Archer . This is a case of my dog is bigger than your dog,I am Archers age . And before I sign off here . I personally think it is BS . SVB is the man in America Period,I have seen all these players play . Before SVB Archer was the big dog in American pool . It is passing the torch . Do I believe Varner ,or Hall for that matter were superior to today's elite .Such as Dennis ,Alex,Shane .Not no but heck no . I HAVE seen them all play . No disrespect to them but the game and PLAYERS have evolved. The ones preaching this are just having visions . This is some of the most ridiculous crap I have ever read . I,m sorry but that is how I feel about it . I don't believe the game peaked 25 years ago . I feel today's players have been disrespected,I never said young guns . Some of this mess sounds like dime novel material.Yes this is bold,but read some of the claims .I am not directing what I have said at you.I was suppose to stop typing after the efren and Archer statement . This is about the thread in whole . The one I should have quoted is a big name on here who I do respect . But comparing what their brain seen 30 years ago with some added ego ,Does not make it fact . If this sounded disrespectful then I apologize .

 

[Bugz]

Not even efren has got any credit in this thread,nor has Archer . This is a case of my dog is bigger than your dog,I am Archers age . And before I sign off here . I personally think it is BS . SVB is the man in America Period,I have seen all these players play . Before SVB Archer was the big dog in American pool . It is passing the torch . Do I believe Varner ,or Hall for that matter were superior to today's elite .Such as Dennis ,Alex,Shane .Not no but heck no . I HAVE seen them all play . No disrespect to them but the game and PLAYERS have evolved. The ones preaching this are just having visions . This is some of the most ridiculous crap I have ever read . I,m sorry but that is how I feel about it . I don't believe the game peaked 25 years ago . I feel today's players have been disrespected,I never said young guns . Some of this mess sounds like dime novel material.Yes this is bold,but read some of the claims .I am not directing what I have said at you.I was suppose to stop typing after the efren and Archer statement . This is about the thread in whole . The one I should have quoted is a big name on here who I do respect . But comparing what their brain seen 30 years ago with some added ego ,Does not make it fact . If this sounded disrespectful then I apologize .

Green to you.

I couldn’t agree more, seems like 30 years ago these guys put the top of their class on a super human pedestal. My favorite response was ‘the center of the pocket is the center of the pocket’ when someone commented on the smaller pockets. Really? Really? Did you watch every shot go into the center of the pocket, with that super human stroke they never cheated one in off the rail. Blasting away they hit dead center every time. I find that hard to believe and remember, pro vs pro one rattled ball could mean the difference in a set. I think the new gen would destroy the old gen in 9ball on both sets of equipment. Focus, shot making ability, stamina, and heart beat any guy from +30years ago. I take the experience of 5-7 day long tournaments the young gen goes through over all nighters against the same guy in a money game.

P.S. I’m not just talking at the top level either, I’m talking about all levels down to the BCA open. (Our BCA open against 30years ago, BCA Masters, Grand Masters, etc. etc.

 

[jay helfert]

Not even efren has got any credit in this thread,nor has Archer . This is a case of my dog is bigger than your dog,I am Archers age . And before I sign off here . I personally think it is BS . SVB is the man in America Period,I have seen all these players play . Before SVB Archer was the big dog in American pool . It is passing the torch . Do I believe Varner ,or Hall for that matter were superior to today's elite .Such as Dennis ,Alex,Shane .Not no but heck no . I HAVE seen them all play . No disrespect to them but the game and PLAYERS have evolved. The ones preaching this are just having visions . This is some of the most ridiculous crap I have ever read . I,m sorry but that is how I feel about it . I don't believe the game peaked 25 years ago . I feel today's players have been disrespected,I never said young guns . Some of this mess sounds like dime novel material.Yes this is bold,but read some of the claims .I am not directing what I have said at you.I was suppose to stop typing after the efren and Archer statement . This is about the thread in whole . The one I should have quoted is a big name on here who I do respect . But comparing what their brain seen 30 years ago with some added ego ,Does not make it fact . If this sounded disrespectful then I apologize .

Sorry to see you get so upset about this, but my point remains that the very best players of the last generation played just as good as the very best players of this one.

At One Pocket Ronnie Allen was the equal of anyone playing today PERIOD!
At Straight Pool, Steve Mizerak (and Mike Sigel) was the equal of anyone playing today PERIOD!
At Bank Pool, Eddie Taylor (and Bugs) was the equal of anyone playing today PERIOD!
And finally at 9-Ball and Ten Ball Jose Parica (and Buddy) was the equal of anyone playing today PERIOD!

That's my opinion based on a lifetime of watching great pool by great players. I am not clouded by memories of another era. I deal very much in realities of observing the finer points of each player's game. There is no 9-Ball player today who plays the game any better than Buddy Hall at his best. He would play perfect position for hours and not miss a ball. Do you see anyone doing that today?

All that said, I have seen Shane play tournament matches better than anyone else before him. His match with Ronnie Alcano for the hot seat at the U.S. Open a couple of years back is as good as I've ever seen anyone play. Shane was in a word, AMAZING! I have also seen Wu from Taiwan play at a higher speed than any other tournament player before him (Earl being the lone exception). And his countryman Yang is the premier money player of this generation. Oh what a match if only Parica was 15-20 years younger!

Finally I am quick to give credit where credit is due. It is true we have more great pool players today than ever before. Are they better than the best players who came before them. Of that I'm not so sure. I have yet to see anyone bank balls match after match better than Eddie Taylor. He was running fives, sixes and sevens (and more) in every game he played. I can imagine what he would do if he had the opportunity to play 9-Ball Banks all those years ago. I think the game would have seemed like a joke to him, just like 9-Ball seemed to Mosconi.

If all this upsets you, I'm sorry. It's just my opinion and you can take it for what it's worth. By the way, Earl Strickland remains the best tournament 9-Ball player I ever saw. He is kind of in between generations, so I don't know where you would place him.

 

[kamtile]

First post here fellas, my name is Keith and I grew up in anaheim with the McCreadys, Dicky Renk, Tony Banks and that crew in the 70s. I have not been around the game except watching on TV for many years but if the op is saying the oldtimers didnt have game, I would have to object. I have seen shots, racks and sessions that lasted days with flawless stratagy and unbeleivable execution that may still be equaled today but I doubt the best of todays best are any better than the best of yesterdays best. I would assume the talent pool is more vast today due to bigger money being available and payouts going deeper in the tournament fields and I doubt there is as much extra curricular chemical experimentation going on as the old days, but some truly incredible pool was played in the 70s and 80s. I didnt intend to post anything but I saw Jays name and felt compelled. I remember Jay from the stagger inn and Bobs in anaheim then Tony Margolins place on Lincoln. I ran with Buddy Dennis back then, lots of fun in those days if you lived through it. Anyhow, hi Jay.

 

[kamtile]

Chris

I agree with some of your points and others I dont. Talking about the American players-Shane is probably one of the best and he isnt the best at kicking or playing safes..he is more offensive minded.

You have stated that Effren is a freak--which he is..no doubt about it. So in Effren's prime..which American's today could play him even 9 ball? Effren is still around past his prime so you can gauge him against the new players. In his prime Buddy, Varner, and Earl played him heads up in 9 ball and he didnt beat them all and Early barely lost. I dont think you would find one American player today that would have even stepped up to play him even for money.

I remember Effrins first trip to the US, it was one year after Parica's first trip over. Effrin ran through all "B" players like butter then he was giving some "A" players the 7 out and beating them. Keith McCready stood even with him that trip. Maybe later it was different, I dont know.

 

[Johnnyt]

First post here fellas, my name is Keith and I grew up in anaheim with the McCreadys, Dicky Renk, Tony Banks and that crew in the 70s. I have not been around the game except watching on TV for many years but if the op is saying the oldtimers didnt have game, I would have to object. I have seen shots, racks and sessions that lasted days with flawless stratagy and unbeleivable execution that may still be equaled today but I doubt the best of todays best are any better than the best of yesterdays best. I would assume the talent pool is more vast today due to bigger money being available and payouts going deeper in the tournament fields and I doubt there is as much extra curricular chemical experimentation going on as the old days, but some truly incredible pool was played in the 70s and 80s. I didnt intend to post anything but I saw Jays name and felt compelled. I remember Jay from the stagger inn and Bobs in anaheim then Tony Margolins place on Lincoln. I ran with Buddy Dennis back then, lots of fun in those days if you lived through it. Anyhow, hi Jay.

I never said they didn't have game. I said if they broke in 9-ball like they did back then they wouldn't beat today's top players. Welcome to the board. Looking forward to more posts from you about your running around days. Johnnyt

 

[jamesroberts]

Maybe todays players dont take as many drugs as the old timers???? or maybe they do waht do I know