Old Growth shaft

twal

twal

"W"
Silver Member
I see the cue makers always comment on how the old growth shafts are the “best” shafts.
Since I consider you the experts I am hoping you can shed some light on this subject for me.
As the player/consumer how do I know if I am getting an “old growth shaft?”

Are you simply counting the rings of growth in the shaft (at the joint or at the tip)?
If so is there a desired minimum of growth rings that as a player I should be looking for?

I am looking to go back to playing with a standard shaft and looking for helpful hints.
Is there a standard amount of rings required to consider it an old growth shaft?
 
Old growth means 150+ yrs. old before harvest. I have cut a few old growth trees. Shafts I get from those trees I can honestly consider old growth shafts. I cut a giant, moderate to fast growth tree, that was approx. 300 years old in northern Wisconsin. We had to use chainsaws to slab it down to a size small enough to fit on the 36" mill. It was HUGE. The shafts I got from the southern face of that log showed only 3-5 GPI, and yet they were true old growth shafts. I cut a tree two years ago that was only about 12" diameter & it showed about 15-18GPI, roughly 100yrs old. Shafts from it, even though much tighter grain & many more years represented within them, are NOT old growth shafts. I have shafts with 30+ GPI & there's no way I can consider them old growth shafts because i'm not the one who cut the tree and have no idea.

One thing I have noticed through the years that seems to be true in every climate, every region, is that a healthy tree grows faster & lives longer. This means it would be very rare for an old growth tree to have tight grain. Understory trees, even if healthy, get less sunlight and therefore grow slower, but either die of light starvation or pop through the forest canopy & begin growing fast. The trick is to get them just before they pop through the canopy, while still growing slow but not yet dying from lack of light. Once they reach a certain size, it takes a certain amount of light to support them via photosynthesis. Smaller trees need less light. So they either grow through to the light, or they die trying. The best shafts come from the still healthy understory trees. The tight grain doesn't mean they're old growth, though. It only means they were growing slowly. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less. They might grow slow for a number of reasons including low light, low water, depleted soil, etc. Once in lumber form, you can't tell.

So the next time somebody tells you a shaft is old growth & it has a load of grain lines, you know it's not the truth. Doesn't mean they're lying, just that they don't know any better. Old growth shafts do indeed play great. But keep in mind that if it's tight grain then it came from the core of the tree, the early understory years of that tree's life. Considering that only the outer layers of a tree are living, then any tight grain old growth wood will be brown, not white, not off white, nothing even close to white. It'll be mocha brown. That's the color of maple heartwood. You WILL NOT EVER see an old growth shaft with tight grain & a white or light color. It's impossible, does not & never has existed. It defies nature's rule. If it's white then it's sapwood. If it's tight grain then it's understory growth. If it's white AND tight grain then it's understory sapwood, and impossible to be old growth.

I'm sorry if I confused you. I tried to say it as simply as can be said. Hope it helps.
 
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Thanks qbilder.

I think my prior assumption of an “old growth” shaft was the more rings or the more GPI.

According to what you had said here, if I understand it, that assumption is wrong.

So as you said, you have cut down trees and have seen some shafts with 18 + GPI but don’t consider them old growth shafts. Also you stated some with 30+ GPI and since you did not cut them down you cannot say if they are or are not old growth wood/shafts.

I totally understand that tree growth is related to the amount of sun and water it gets and how this affects the tree.

I am however left with the puzzling question, unless you are the one who cut the tree down and cued the wood yourself, how do you know for sure. Is there a general rule of thumb.

Correct me if I am wrong but I do believe that each ring represents a year. So it would seem reasonable to think that the more rings (GPI) you see in the shaft, the odds are the older it is?
I guess the other argument is that it could be closer to the core of the tree.

When a tree is cut down just where is the “best” shaft wood found? at the core? Out toward the bark? Where?

You also referenced “tight grain” I assume this is something completely different thn the GPI we were just talking about. But maybe I am wrong?
Please explain and help me understand tight grain in a shaft.

Let’s say I have 10 different shafts in front of me and I had to choose just one. Is there any way for me to know just by looking or touching the shafts which would be better than the others?
 
If I were you I would be looking at if it is straight grained, the weight, taper, ferrule and tip.
 
twal said:
I am however left with the puzzling question, unless you are the one who cut the tree down and cued the wood yourself, how do you know for sure.
Click to expand...

Good question. And i'd have to think there aren't many builders, and even less players in general that could answer it.

First of all, 150 years or older is what constitutes an old growth tree. Only from old growth trees can you get an old growth shaft, obviously. Now think of two trees growing side by side, one is 150 & the other 100 years old. They grow at the same speed & when milled, the lumber looks exactly the same. How on Earth can anybody know the old growth shaft from the regular shaft if they weren't there to see the tree cut?

As far as I know, there's no way of knowing for certain that a shaft is old growth. There are clues, such as it smells like it's 150yrs+ (like a barnyard), it's mocha brown, and should be very heavy & hard if not already began stages of rot. These characteristics can exist in wood that's not old growth, but exist in pretty much any wood that is old growth.

However, it's easy to know if it's not old growth. White or light color means sapwood, and the older a tree gets, the thinner sapwood gets. But by the time it's old growth the sapwood is nothing but a narrow band on the outer edge of the log, not nearly enough to get clean lumber from. So a white shaft means not old growth. White wood comes from young trees. Old trees are brown, young trees are white. I have never seen 150 yr. old trees with much white sapwood. So your first clue is color.

As for growth rings, it is simply a matter of growth rate. Yes you can assume that a shaft with 30 grains per inch came from an old tree, but in reality it could have come from a tree 6" in diameter. More likely it came from the northern face of the tree where it was shaded most hours of the day. A 12" diameter tree at 50yrs. old might have a pith that's 8" from the south face & 4" from the north face. This means the north face will have about 12GPI while the south face has 4 GPI. You could get a shaft with 4 grains per inch and it could be from the same tree as a shaft with 12 grains per inch. As any plant grows, it expands toward the sun to maximize exposure to it. Trees are no different. From that tree, which shaft is better, the 4gpi or the 12gpi? Most people would automatically assume the 12gpi is a better shaft but in reality, it's the same wood from the same tree.

So to be honest, you cannot look at a shaft & know if it's good or not. You can't tell if it's old growth, and counting grain lines will not tell you that it came from an old tree or not. You simply cannot tell much of anything by looking at the shaft. It is completely out of context by then & almost non-related to it's origin. All you can do is trust your cue maker to know good shafts from bad, and how to match them to the butt. Some shafts look awesome and are junk. Some look horrible & are like magic. Generally a good looking shaft is going to play nice, too. But your builder should know for sure before he sends it to you.
 
When you say straight grain you are referring to the line from the bottom of the joint up to the tip? Correct?

So does the GPI or rings in the shaft mean anything?
What if I only see one shaft 4 lines or growth rings and another that has 7?

You are telling me that means nothing?
 
Twal,

Geezus H Christ!!! The man already answered your questions twice. You keep basically asking the same thing.

Go back and read his reply more carefully!!!!

If you don't like the answer, move along.

Gary
 
GBCues, chill out man!
When I started to type my second response qbilder had not responded at that time.

Sorry I got pulled away and then came back and finished.

Thank you qbilder for the information. I found it to be very helpful and insightful.

GBCues, if you have nothing of value to add so just go away.
 
twal said:
When you say straight grain you are referring to the line from the bottom of the joint up to the tip? Correct?

So does the GPI or rings in the shaft mean anything?
What if I only see one shaft 4 lines or growth rings and another that has 7?

You are telling me that means nothing?
Click to expand...
The 7 will have 3 more rings.:grin:
I have a few tight grain shafts like the ones on the pic.
These are not old growth.


There's a lot more to shafts than just tight grain.
But, straightness and density are high on most people's list.
 

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I cut some large trees down on my property once. And I started counting back the growth lines in the tree. I found some really tight growth ring count at various stages in the stump and some very wide ones. I looked up the years of drought in the region and found the very tight grain lines were the years of the droughts. So if this tree had been used as shaft wood we would have had some very tight grain that came from the 1950's and 1930's in the tree. I would assume Maple logs would also have varying grain pattern throughout the same log. So I cannot undertand why no tight grain wood could be found in a old growth log. Maybe I misunderstood something that was written.
 
old growth

has just become another sellers pitch word to sell cues or shafts. its as bad as taper roll. both terms i believe are used way too much. i for one do believe unless you cut the tree, or see the tree being cut, its real hard to convince me its a true old growth.
having said that, i personally don't care if it was cut 100 years ago or last year, just as long as it has tight growth rings, is very dense and dry. again its just my opinion, but to me the denser as shaft the better it plays.
 
cueman said:
I cut some large trees down on my property once. And I started counting back the growth lines in the tree. I found some really tight growth ring count at various stages in the stump and some very wide ones. I looked up the years of drought in the region and found the very tight grain lines were the years of the droughts. So if this tree had been used as shaft wood we would have had some very tight grain that came from the 1950's and 1930's in the tree. I would assume Maple logs would also have varying grain pattern throughout the same log. So I cannot undertand why no tight grain wood could be found in a old growth log. Maybe I misunderstood something that was written.
Click to expand...

As soon as a tree reaches maturity and it's crown reaches the canopy ceiling, it is subjected to full sun. This causes it to grow rapidly, meaning it will have wide grain during those years. Every old growth, by any logic, should have some wide growth rings somewhere, usually the outer 75% of the log. I mentioned that my old growth shafts have only a few GPI, and they are for certain old growth from a tree around 300 yrs old.
 
I just got done cutting 50 shafts to ,02 over.

Here is the lightest one. As you can see it has nice color and pretty tight growth rings.

vygeqa5a.jpg


And here is the heaviest. It only has 6 rings.

7umu6ezu.jpg


Can't tell much about a shaft just by looking at it.
 
I wasn't going to get involved in this conversation but since everyone has an opinion, I just thought I'd offer out a few thoughts. We handle more maple and that's what we're discussing here, in one year than all cue makers will handle in their lifetimes.

Maple from New York, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin is unacceptable, at least to us because it does not afford us the traits necessary to be a great hard rock maple shaft. You can get good maple for furniture and broom handles in those area but not the best maple for shafts.

Everyone will agree that the finest maple comes from the upper peninsula of Michigan, Canada and Maine; yes Maine! Why? Because these areas have long winters and short summers; essential for great maple. Tight grains are the direct results of short summer growing seasons and long winters. This is why you'll get your tightest growth ring concentration from these areas. Logically, you'll get tighter ring concentration in a shorter period than other areas. So, yes while there may be old growth trees in New York with looser ring growth, those trees are not growing in upper Michigan, Canada nor Maine. And as such your denser shaft wood will be produced from the shorter summers of upper Michigan, Canada and Maine. Old growth Maple from these areas is considered old growth anywhere from 100 to 150 years in the aforementioned areas.

Adequate moisture and a long growing season result in a wide ring. A drought year may result in a very narrow one.

A 6" tree can never be considered old growth nor would any responsible person cut a 6 inch diameter tree.

Let us show you this picture which shows a genuine slow old growth shaft as great definition and a standard to which all tight grained shafts should be judged for a tight grained shaft. There are probably 35 rings to the inch. We have them at 40 rings too.
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/cuecomponents_2229_80673844

Logically speaking this could never occur in a 1" diameter tree or a 6" diameter tree unless it was subjected to long winters and short summers. The particular tree that this shaft came from was well over 100 years old as the logger was so proud to show us the tree and then it's cross sections. It was a beauty and proof that old growth and tight ring count can exist together. It's all about the growing season - short summers and long winters.

Now you may look to these photos for other examples of tight grained shafts:
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/cuecomponents_2227_5997828

Anything less than these are considered average or usual shafts for the species denoting tight grain. Some makers don't have access to this grade and quality so they accept lesser growth rings as being tight grained. Unless you have this comparison, you can become bulldozed into exactly what is a tight grained shaft. Now you have a comparison. Tight grained wood such as this almost always emanates for upper Michigan, Canada and Maine.

If you notice, these shaft are fairly white which is the result of the process of drying the wood. We had a choice of our supplier using a conventional kiln which would have produced darker wood or we could choose, as we did, a vacuum kiln which will produce whiter wood. Because our shafts come from Michigan, they are tight and dense as opposed to other areas.

Once again, slow growing old growth maple grows in the short summers and long winters of upper Michigan, Canada and Maine where the finest maple comes from.
 
Joe Barringer,
I am a little confused why you don’t think there is quality shaft wood in WI.
Yes, I live in WI and used to live in MI. So I really have no horse in this race.
I just want to understand your thought process.

The upper peninsula of Michigan is really just connected to WI. It is the same exact climate. Thus my confusion.

So I am trying to just clarify this, do you mean the southern half of Wisconsin wood is not good for shafts?

It has always been my understanding that wood from northern WI was very good.
Just as you said, they have short summers and longer winters.

So I am clear, you are saying that a tighter ring count in wood results in denser wood.
It is because of that denser wood that results in a better shaft?

I think qbilder noted earlier that wood from the northern part of a tree is likely to have more GPI or a tighter grain than the same wood from the same tree that faces south.

So, I started the tread asking the question, assuming you have some dense wood, if I am simply counting the rings on a shaft, it would seem safe to say that the more rings or GPI in a shaft (assuming it is straight) the odds are the better it will play and feel.
 
I have cut maple in numerous states, had maple that was cut in at least a dozen different states. My observation is that grain count and climate has absolutely nothing to do with density. And grain count plays absolutely no role in playability, stiffness, or anything else. It's nothing but how many lines you care to count on your shaft. Northern climates do indeed have slower growth in general due to shorter growing seasons. But that is not a rule, and only considers climate into the equation. There are several other factors, including elevation, dark side or light side of the hill IF growing on a hill, water supply, and the type & size of trees surrounding the individual tree. Further yet due to the nature of any plant on earth, the side facing the sun will always show the most rapid growth, hence why plants lean toward the sun.

I also greatly disagree with the notion that only wood from UP MI, ME, & Canada are worthy quality for cues. A good shaft is a good shaft regardless of where it came from, and any state that can grow hard maple is capable of producing good shafts.

Again, matter of opinion. I can only state an opinion based on what I have experienced. I have shafts from 30 miles north of the Ohio river that are whiter, cleaner, heavier, and stiffer than shafts I have seen anywhere. That doesn't mean Ohio is the best state to get shafts. It merely shows that Ohio is capable of producing the finest grade of shafts. Any state where hard maple grows is capable of producing such. Region is merely one factor of many.
 
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