old growth shafts ????
- Thread starter ILgrizz
- Start date
I generally notice old growth shafts are denser and darker. From my perspective, you can get more juice on the ball and since the shafts are generally denser, I notice less deflection. But this is all my experience with old growth. My favorite shaft of all time was a dirty old 11.25mm Willie Hoppe that was a little of center. Super dark wood. Despite the small tip and long taper, there was almost no deflection. My two cents.
A shaft with 11.25 ferrule will have less deflection for the same reason as other ld shafts -- less mass.
Wondering if these were Lake Superior old growth shafts or something else?
Bob Danielson
www.bdcuesandcomix.com
Wondering if these were Lake Superior old growth shafts or something else?
Bob Danielson
www.bdcuesandcomix.com
Agreed. About 12 or 13 years ago one of those companies salvaging the sunken wood sent Sherm and myself a couple of blanks for samples to see how we liked them. I turned them on my shaft machine and gave both blanks to Sherm without even trying one out so I have no clue as to how they actually play. They both had a number of growth rings but along with a darker color they both had fungus or bacteria or something in the grain of the shafts. There were just fine black dots all through them. They just weren't to my liking.
Dick
An old growth shaft, by the very definition of old growth, means that it was created using wood that was harvested from a 150+ year old tree. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. It could be white or brown, heavy or light, tight grained or loose grained. It's subject to the individual tree's growing conditions and genetics.
Take two trees & plant them in different habitat. Put one in an open feild of bottom wetlands & rich soil. Put the other on the top of a stony, sandy soil hill with lots of rocks. Let them both live 150 years. The tree in the feild is going to be huge diameter with few grain lines per inch, a very white sapwood with very dark & large heartwood, and fairly dense wood. The other tree will be sandy tan in color, rediculous tight grain lines, small diameter, and likely will be lightweight with stringy weak grain. Both are old growth trees & shafts made from either is considered old growth shafts.
Now take a huge, dense & ancient forest and plant a tree in the shady side of a hill down near the bottom, ideally in a revine. Let it grow 150 years with minimal sunlight but lots of nutrition & moisture. This tree will grow straight up like a post and stay relatively slim diameter. The wood will have tight, uniform grain lines. It'll have lots of creamy white/yellowish sapwood with a small brown heart. This is ideal shaft wood. It'll be dense, hard, strong, & a very fine texture. It's also old growth like the two trees above, but is the old growth that is so sought after & revered by cuemakers.
Once cut to lumber, then cut into shaft squares & dowelled, how does anybody know what wood they are getting? There are endless variables. I have cut 300 year old trees that had 10 grains per inch. I have cut 2" diameter sapling trees that had 40 grain lines. Last winter I cut a tree that was 10"-12" diameter & it was around 180 years old. But how do you know what's what once it's a shaft? You don't unless you were there to see the log before it was milled. So whenever you buy & pay premium for old growth shafts, you may want to ask how the builder knows it's old growth and not just his speculation.
I'm not trying burst anybody's bubble but I see a lot of old growth shafts being sold lately & I don't know a lot of sawyers cutting old growth & when they do they don't market it as such because to them it's just another tree. I know which of my shafts are old growth because I cut the tree they come from in many cases. But the shafts I make from bought lumber, I never label as old growth because honestly I don't know. If the shaft has 20+ grains per inch, it's likely old growth because the tree has to be large enough to cut & if it has 20 gpi and large then it's an old tree. But again it's not a sure thing so it can't be accurately claimed.
Sorry for the long post. Hope it helps.
Take two trees & plant them in different habitat. Put one in an open feild of bottom wetlands & rich soil. Put the other on the top of a stony, sandy soil hill with lots of rocks. Let them both live 150 years. The tree in the feild is going to be huge diameter with few grain lines per inch, a very white sapwood with very dark & large heartwood, and fairly dense wood. The other tree will be sandy tan in color, rediculous tight grain lines, small diameter, and likely will be lightweight with stringy weak grain. Both are old growth trees & shafts made from either is considered old growth shafts.
Now take a huge, dense & ancient forest and plant a tree in the shady side of a hill down near the bottom, ideally in a revine. Let it grow 150 years with minimal sunlight but lots of nutrition & moisture. This tree will grow straight up like a post and stay relatively slim diameter. The wood will have tight, uniform grain lines. It'll have lots of creamy white/yellowish sapwood with a small brown heart. This is ideal shaft wood. It'll be dense, hard, strong, & a very fine texture. It's also old growth like the two trees above, but is the old growth that is so sought after & revered by cuemakers.
Once cut to lumber, then cut into shaft squares & dowelled, how does anybody know what wood they are getting? There are endless variables. I have cut 300 year old trees that had 10 grains per inch. I have cut 2" diameter sapling trees that had 40 grain lines. Last winter I cut a tree that was 10"-12" diameter & it was around 180 years old. But how do you know what's what once it's a shaft? You don't unless you were there to see the log before it was milled. So whenever you buy & pay premium for old growth shafts, you may want to ask how the builder knows it's old growth and not just his speculation.
I'm not trying burst anybody's bubble but I see a lot of old growth shafts being sold lately & I don't know a lot of sawyers cutting old growth & when they do they don't market it as such because to them it's just another tree. I know which of my shafts are old growth because I cut the tree they come from in many cases. But the shafts I make from bought lumber, I never label as old growth because honestly I don't know. If the shaft has 20+ grains per inch, it's likely old growth because the tree has to be large enough to cut & if it has 20 gpi and large then it's an old tree. But again it's not a sure thing so it can't be accurately claimed.
Sorry for the long post. Hope it helps.
Is there a standard for grading shaft quality?
RD3P
Banned
yes people grade the quality of woods....but i do believe certain things are overrated like Grains per inch and white color or the absense of sugar marks
what makes a shaft good or not good is the preparation of the wood before working and the work involved in turning
i dont care if you have a super white shaft with 25 grain lines per inch if its not prepped or made right its not gonna be worth a damn ...
the best Truest straitest shaft i have is my schon shaft and it only has 3or four grain lines running throu it...but they are dead strait.
i have a old growth lake salvage shaft ....
not sure if the fact that its old growth makes it stiffer than a normal maple shaft.
my schon shaft is much stiffer than this shaft....
its stiffer because
1.. the diameter
2.. the taper
i would think that if i had the same taper/diameter shaft one made with old growth, one made with regular hard rock maple, the difference would be probably basically unnoticable... or very very minimal
i doo love the color of my salvage shaft....its got a reddish brown hue to it
and the taper and diameter makes the shaft play very different than my others
what makes a shaft good or not good is the preparation of the wood before working and the work involved in turning
i dont care if you have a super white shaft with 25 grain lines per inch if its not prepped or made right its not gonna be worth a damn ...
the best Truest straitest shaft i have is my schon shaft and it only has 3or four grain lines running throu it...but they are dead strait.
i have a old growth lake salvage shaft ....
not sure if the fact that its old growth makes it stiffer than a normal maple shaft.
my schon shaft is much stiffer than this shaft....
its stiffer because
1.. the diameter
2.. the taper
i would think that if i had the same taper/diameter shaft one made with old growth, one made with regular hard rock maple, the difference would be probably basically unnoticable... or very very minimal
i doo love the color of my salvage shaft....its got a reddish brown hue to it
and the taper and diameter makes the shaft play very different than my others
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Unfortunately, no. We all have our own perception of quality & have different criteria that matter most to us.
Personally, I prefer shafts that cut like wax, are high tap tone, & stay straight. Straightness of grain is important but not always the most important thing so long as the shaft is stable & stays straight. Color doesn't matter to me at all so long as it's uniform, not two toned & blotchy. Sugar marks are perfectly ok with me & in fact, I love shafts that are full of sugar lines because these seem to be the stiffest, strongest & most stable shafts. Mineral spots are ok if they are small & not in the line of vision during the stroke.
Basically, as long as the wood is of great structural quality, I care very little of how it looks.
Interesting
That is interesting, I wonder how old that would make my dog ;-)
If a 75 year old tree falls in the forest, will my dog hear it?
Larry
That is interesting, I wonder how old that would make my dog ;-)
If a 75 year old tree falls in the forest, will my dog hear it?
Larry
I'd like to throw in one other detail that was mentioned elsewhere on this topic...
The color seems to be darker in the 'old' lumber and cue shafts (i.e. Tru-Balance) due to the fact that wood was air dried more so than kiln dried "In the old days", and my understanding is that when wood is air dried, it tends to get a darker hue to it, as opposed to when it is kiln dried (soon after harvest) as the sugars in the wood don't disperse throughout before being boiled off or something? So if I understand correctly, "old growth" and "old wood" do not necessarily have a damn thing to do with one another. I prefer old wood that has been air dried and has a darker hue to it.
Anyway, I like the look and also the way (darker) maple machines. I am finishing up a pair of Tru-Balance shafts for my Titlist conversion project and in spite of the problems these old shafts present, they look really great to me.:smile:
PS one has a high GPI and the other is lower. Both are about the same age and color, so we can see what affect GPI has on something here in a few weeks I guess... Or we will just shut up and play with the damn things, which is more fun anyway!:grin:
The color seems to be darker in the 'old' lumber and cue shafts (i.e. Tru-Balance) due to the fact that wood was air dried more so than kiln dried "In the old days", and my understanding is that when wood is air dried, it tends to get a darker hue to it, as opposed to when it is kiln dried (soon after harvest) as the sugars in the wood don't disperse throughout before being boiled off or something? So if I understand correctly, "old growth" and "old wood" do not necessarily have a damn thing to do with one another. I prefer old wood that has been air dried and has a darker hue to it.
Anyway, I like the look and also the way (darker) maple machines. I am finishing up a pair of Tru-Balance shafts for my Titlist conversion project and in spite of the problems these old shafts present, they look really great to me.:smile:
PS one has a high GPI and the other is lower. Both are about the same age and color, so we can see what affect GPI has on something here in a few weeks I guess... Or we will just shut up and play with the damn things, which is more fun anyway!:grin:
Old growth trees refer to those that have been cut from areas that were never logged. Much of the northeastern United States was once covered by forests which were cut both for lumber and to clear the land for farming. There are still virgin forests on the west coast and a few scattered elsewhere but most of the original forests are gone. Some of this second growth is 200 years old but he sizes of the forests are a fraction of what they once were and they are on the poorer quality land and necessarily, a larger percentage of the trees are from the edges of the forests.
The "Old growth" lumber that is used in shafts comes from logs salvaged from the bottom of northern lakes where they have rested for 100 or more years. The trees ferom which these logs came grew in the middle of huge forests and typically grew very slowly and very straight. During the latter half of the 19th century lumbering moved to the upper midwest and the logs were floated down rivers to lakes and the saw mills. It is estimated that about 10% of the logs sank and were never recovered. This would be millions of logs. Initially Lake Superior was the source of these logs but within a few years other northern lakes were found to have salvageable and for a while divers were supporting their hobby by selling logs. I have purchased lumber from logs that came from different lakes and couldn't tell the difference in the wood.
The wood from these logs after over 100 years of anaerobic microbial attack and has undergone subtle changes making the wood uniformly darker, about 2% lighter weight, a little stiffer, more chatoyant, and very warp resistant. The ends and sides of these logs have become useless and much of the sap wood has staining and under 10% of the wood will be useable for shafts. Every piece of this maple I have ever seen when dampened or wet with water has a characteristic odor that you will remember forever. The wood is also more absorbent and needs to be sealed more than new maple.
Shafts from this lumber a lot more interesting to look at and it plays as well as the best shafts from normal sources. If you have an old Hoppe or other cue with nice patina, this wood will match up nicely.
The "Old growth" lumber that is used in shafts comes from logs salvaged from the bottom of northern lakes where they have rested for 100 or more years. The trees ferom which these logs came grew in the middle of huge forests and typically grew very slowly and very straight. During the latter half of the 19th century lumbering moved to the upper midwest and the logs were floated down rivers to lakes and the saw mills. It is estimated that about 10% of the logs sank and were never recovered. This would be millions of logs. Initially Lake Superior was the source of these logs but within a few years other northern lakes were found to have salvageable and for a while divers were supporting their hobby by selling logs. I have purchased lumber from logs that came from different lakes and couldn't tell the difference in the wood.
The wood from these logs after over 100 years of anaerobic microbial attack and has undergone subtle changes making the wood uniformly darker, about 2% lighter weight, a little stiffer, more chatoyant, and very warp resistant. The ends and sides of these logs have become useless and much of the sap wood has staining and under 10% of the wood will be useable for shafts. Every piece of this maple I have ever seen when dampened or wet with water has a characteristic odor that you will remember forever. The wood is also more absorbent and needs to be sealed more than new maple.
Shafts from this lumber a lot more interesting to look at and it plays as well as the best shafts from normal sources. If you have an old Hoppe or other cue with nice patina, this wood will match up nicely.
informative post, Paul 
k:
k:old growth
i bought some maple boards once,was told that they were took out of an office bldg. built in 1810 ,in new york.they had been floor boards,could'nt tell much about them when i got them,due to the color aging.later sawed them out to turn shafts working around the square nail holes.when all was done ,i had 34 growth ring shaft wood ,that plays better than laminates,but it does have a darker color.
i bought some maple boards once,was told that they were took out of an office bldg. built in 1810 ,in new york.they had been floor boards,could'nt tell much about them when i got them,due to the color aging.later sawed them out to turn shafts working around the square nail holes.when all was done ,i had 34 growth ring shaft wood ,that plays better than laminates,but it does have a darker color.
who made it for you? how long did it take to turn down?
Anyone Recycle??
I have been able to get some nice shaft wood from old one piece cues. Reusing wood from the points forward will allow for an oversized shaft, ready for a turning schedule. A good percentage have higher growth ring counts but don't expect a high yield from a pile of old cues. Most are warped beyond use, others may move when turned. Even so, I have come up with some very nice wood that has more than passed the test of some snooker players wanting 31" shafts.
I have been able to get some nice shaft wood from old one piece cues. Reusing wood from the points forward will allow for an oversized shaft, ready for a turning schedule. A good percentage have higher growth ring counts but don't expect a high yield from a pile of old cues. Most are warped beyond use, others may move when turned. Even so, I have come up with some very nice wood that has more than passed the test of some snooker players wanting 31" shafts.