One Dollar

[JAM]

I was recently reminded about the orignial concept of the APA at its origin. One dollar was withdrawn from entry fees or tour membership (not sure) and placed in a fund for PROFESSIONAL pool.

Mike Janis of the then-Viking Tour era started the N.U.T.S. for regional tours to, again, hold back one dollar from all entry fees to be put in a fund for players to compete in professional events, e.g., U.S. Open, Skins Billiards Championship, Super Billiards Expo Pro Championship, et cetera. N.U.T.S. stood for National Unified Tour -- something or other. I can't remember.

My first thought is, gee, what happened to all those one dollars collected from N.U.T.S. and the APA. That's a lot of cheesenips over the years. :wink:

Have the leagues and regional tours thrown in the towel on professional pool? Some regional tours have now reconstructed their tours to cater to to amateurs.

I believe this recent trend to accommodate amateur-level competitions is the result of professional-caliber players winning the bulk of these regional tour events, due to the lack of professional competitions. The pros want to make a decent living at being, well, like the name implies, a professional pool player. :grin-square:

The existing lot of American professional players is dwindling. Aside from sponsored players like Johnny Archer and Shane Van Boening, very few can afford to travel the globe today to represent the United States. For Shane and Johnny, that's great; they're going to always be in like Flynn, especially if pool makes it to the Olympics.

Charlie Williams and the Dragon crew seem to be doing okay, and AzBilliards has graciously created the professional player fund. Is this enough to help the American pool constituency be alive and well? I do applaud everybody's efforts for sure.

Is this one-dollar tax a viable platform to promote professional pool? Any other ideas?

 

[Maniac]

I was recently reminded about the orignial concept of the APA at its origin. One dollar was withdrawn from entry fees or tour membership (not sure) and placed in a fund for PROFESSIONAL pool.

Is this one-dollar tax a viable platform to promote professional pool? Any other ideas?

This subject has been brought up at least two times (to my knowledge) in the past year or so. Some were all for it, some were against it. The first time I replied to this type of thread I stated that I didn't want any of my dues to go to professional pool because I didn't care if ANYONE ever made a dime from playing a game so many people worldwide play just for fun. The second time the subject came up, I relented and figured "what the hell", figuring a dollar once a year wasn't gonna make any difference in my financial status. As of today, I don't see why amateur pool SHOULDN'T support professional pool in some way or another. It's just ONE dollar a year for cryin' out loud. I can assure you that every amateur poolplayer in America wastes way more than $1 every year on something stupid. I think that to some extent, we amateur poolplayers NEED a certain amount of success in our professional players endeavors to promote pool nationwide for the benefit of ALL players. Just my $.02.

FWIW, it shouldn't ONLY be APA. How 'bout collectin' that dollar from BCA, TAP, VNEA, etc. leagues as well???

Maniac

 

[poolsnark]

I've never understood the concept that amateur pool should somehow subsidize the pros. Pro pool brings zero value to the amateur ranks. Why exactly should amateurs be willing to throw even a single dollar at pro tours or pro events? Where is the value proposition?

As far as I'm concerned, the dollar that "every amateur poolplayer in America wastes on something stupid" is better spent on that frivolity than supporting a bunch of pro players who don't give anything back to the game. The outward attitude of the vast majority of pro players is "pay me because I'm a pro". There are a few exceptions to this of course, but if pro players aren't going to do anything to raise awareness and bring more interest to pool, why should amateurs spend one red cent helping to build a pro tour? Enlighten me.

 

[Maniac]

I've never understood the concept that amateur pool should somehow subsidize the pros. Pro pool brings zero value to the amateur ranks. Why exactly should amateurs be willing to throw even a single dollar at pro tours or pro events? Where is the value proposition?

Okay, you're right. What I forgot to mention in my post was that it would be a good idea to have a box to check on your league application form that allows you to DONATE an EXTRA $1 (or more) to support Professional Pool. I have to agree with the argument that amateurs funds should be distributed solely to the amateurs. I do however, believe that IF the box were on the application form for those wishing to donate, it would generate SOME money to say the least. With the numbers of persons playing in many different league formats (APA, BCA, TAP, VNEA, etc.) it's bound to help out some, wouldn't you think? I mean, people in poolrooms seem to throw money around effortlessly, don't they???

Maniac

 

[ridinda9]

Y'all gots it completely assbackwards , fer az I kin tell .
First off , in this country , there is no professional pool . Until there is a unified sanctioning body governing the game , promoting matches , and paying off the players , professional pool does not exist .
Expecting the amateur leagues to pay for this is ludicrous .
A sanctioning body must be formed , along the lines of PGA , USTA , NFL , MLB , NBA , and NASCAR . It could then pursue both corporate sponsorships and public funding ( the same government funding that pays for sports stadiums and racetracks - pro pool funding would be a drop in the bucket by comparison .)
Looking at the models of these other sports , though , shows that the professionals support the amateurs , not the other way around .
MLB pro teams support the AAA minor teams , the A farm clubs , and donate huge amounts to Little League and High School programs .
You know what a professional pool player and a medium pizza have in common ?
Neither one can feed a family of 4 comfortably .
Until we can rectify that situation , PROFESSIONAL pool doesn't exist .
The APA does support professional pool , through their sponsorship of the WPBA .
$1 per person per year from all APA members = $250,000 per year .
This does not go far when you consider it as the advertising budget for a national corporation .
Yep , seems like a lot of cheesenips to some - or just a crumb if you're trying to buy national media ad space.

 

[cleary]

I've alway said the APA could not only save professional pool, but make even more money for themselves if they invested profits from amateurs into professionals. They invest profits into avenues geared towards becoming professionals. Most join the APA for fun, and rise up the rankings. But what are you trying to become? Why should I get my kid into pool? Tennis or pool? Hmmm???? Thats easy... So why doesn't the APA continue from a "2" to a professional? The money is there, just not setup right. The 2's and 3's generate money for the professionals and it gives the 2's and 3's something to work towards and a REASON to invest money/time into this sport.

 

[JoeW]

My guess is that you can’t have it both ways. The pool playing ethos is that of the hustler. It is about taking not about giving. If I give I am just another fish.

I suppose that if I saw pros giving to the pool playing world I might be more amenable. If I saw them encouraging the young player, putting on exhibitions for charity, organizing themselves in a professional manner, then I would be willing to kick in and help.

To kick in a dollar to send some amateur to a pro event where he could be netted by some pro on the make is not appealing.

 

[JAM]

My guess is that you can’t have it both ways. The pool playing ethos is that of the hustler. It is about taking not about giving. If I give I am just another fish.

I suppose that if I saw pros giving to the pool playing world I might be more amenable. If I saw them encouraging the young player, putting on exhibitions for charity, organizing themselves in a professional manner, then I would be willing to kick in and help.

To kick in a dollar to send some amateur to a pro event where he could be netted by some pro on the make is not appealing.

Thanks for all the great replies. Some are very eye-opening to me.

I guess I'm looking at it from another angle in the big picture. A player I know well has gone to charity events, given free autographed photos to hundreds of people only to see them for sale on eBay, the asking price actually being less than it cost for us to produce them. When he sees a young player showing an interest in pool at events, he always spends time with them, playing a game, showing them how to hold the cue, even paying them one dollar for every ball they pocket successfully. He loves children, since he has none of his own.

The organization part of this equation is definitely key. In my brief time seeing how the professional pool world operates, the organizations that came forth failed. This happened for a variety of reasons, which one can just do a search in this forum and read the plethora of opinions.

It is hard for the pro players to give back to amateurs when there's tens of thousands of amateurs and less than, say, 25 pro players in the United States today. I'm not even sure if there's 25 actual professional players anymore.

If the APA is helping the WPBA, that's great. It is no wonder they had been able to afford ESPN all these years. That now makes sense to me. Heard it through the grapevine -- AND THIS IS HEARSAY -- that it costs $20,000 to have ESPN broadcast a pool happening.

It is kind of interesting to hear all the varied thoughts on this topic. I hope others will chime in.

 

[Black-Balled]

I thought the n.u.t.s was a good idear. To have the best from different tours competing woulda been cool.

Plus, I was playing pretty good in '05! I was gonna snap it off!!!

 

[JAM]

I thought the n.u.t.s was a good idear. To have the best from different tours competing woulda been cool.

Plus, I was playing pretty good in '05! I was gonna snap it off!!!

You are the perfect example of what I was thinking about with this one dollar concept.

It allows working stiffs like you, aspiring pros, and people who just love to compete the golden opportunity to play in high-profile pool events.

More importantly, though, it also is a strategy to get more pro players in the States; new blood, if you will.

 

[JoeW]

For the real professional I can imagine several ways that it could be done. One of the top 25 might set up a web site where they offered free tips, lessons for teenagers and fans, and where they collect and contribute money for some pool related event. After I had determined the sincerity of the venture I would probably kick in.

Like many in the real world of earning a living I have no problem with the idea that the pro was getting their name out there, that they were becoming known and that they were known as a philanthropic player. It would be good for all concerned.

I am also OK with the way the pool playing world exists, hustlers, sharks, and fish. It has its own appeal and that does not include contributing to making it a better world.

Perhaps there is a need for two types of pool players. Apparently the P.A.T. system and its affiliation with the WPA is moving along these lines. It would be good to see more US pros involved in something like this.

My point is that as it exists the current pool playing world is not conducive to growing a more mature "sport." Perhaps it is time to take a lesson from the Europeans !

 

[JAM]

For the real professional I can imagine several ways that it could be done. One of the top 25 might set up a web site where they offered free tips, lessons for teenagers and fans, and where they collect and contribute money for some pool related event. After I had determined the sincerity of the venture I would probably kick in.

Like many in the real world of earning a living I have no problem with the idea that the pro was getting their name out there, that they were becoming known and that they were known as a philanthropic player. It would be good for all concerned.

I am also OK with the way the pool playing world exists, hustlers, sharks, and fish. It has its own appeal and that does not include contributing to making it a better world.

Perhaps there is a need for two types of pool players. Apparently the P.A.T. system and its affiliation with the WPA is moving along these lines. It would be good to see more US pros involved in something like this.

My point is that as it exists the current pool playing world is not conducive to growing a more mature "sport." Perhaps it is time to take a lesson from the Europeans !

Hustling, sharks, and fish is a dead entity, for the most part. So we don't have to worry about this offending the pool purists anymore. It's only the stuff that movies are made and books are written about today. :thumbup:

I see articles on AzBilliards Main Page all the time about players going overseas to support the troops, going to charity events for free, et cetera, et cetera. That's not working either for the pros. Nobody seems to remember it or it goes unnoticed.

What is the European lesson? I have spoken to a few European so-called pros, some of whom told me they wanted to leave professional pool because they couldn't make a living. Nick Vandenberg was playing online poker and shared his opinion about pro pool in a chat, and Alex Lely said he'd had enough and thought he needed to spend more time with his family. Pool just wasn't lucrative for either one of these European pros -- at least at the time I spoke to them.

The first time I ever spoke to Thorsten Hohmann was at the Skins Billiards Championship in A.C., and he said that he liked playing in the U.S. because of the opportunities to compete, more so than what was offered at that time in Europe. I'm not sure where he's living today, but last I read, he was living in the U.S. and not Europe. I guess I'm not clear on how Europe's lesson is a good one, but I'd sure like to know more if it would help American pool.

Oh, one more thing. What is the P.A.T. system? I don't think I am familiar with that.

 

[JoeW]

Take a look through this P.A.T. site

http://www.pat-billiard.com/Default.aspx

Commercial and sports oriented for the player at any level. The model has much to offer. I am not a member or affiliated with this group. It has many appealing features that have earned my interest and respect. Fact is I might even invest a little time, effort, and money in their idea.

 

[9ball]

What!

Some of you really crack me up!

To not want to give a dollar! Come on! You are acting as if it will kill you to donate 1 dollar to pro pool.

If pro pool had some organization it would be great to donate a dollar in some form or another. To help with the pro events or players who need help getting to events ect.

Also to help aspiring young players to make it to the pro level. Heck I would give a dollar a week if it helped the pro system work.

Remember this is the sport we love! So its up to us to help it grow!

I know plenty of pro players who give back to the sport in some form or another, so saying they don`t is pure heresay!

And if 1 dollar is going to kill ya then sure don`t give!





Sheesh!!! People loosen up!!!



H.P.



Jam ,if that pro player you speak of is Keith, I know of 1 young player who would love his autographed pic. Thanks

 

[JAM]

Take a look through this P.A.T. site

http://www.pat-billiard.com/Default.aspx

Commercial and sports oriented for the player at any level. The model has much to offer. I am not a member or affiliated with this group. It has many appealing features that have earned my interest and respect. Fact is I might even invest a little time, effort, and money in their idea.

I will have to study this concept. Thank you so very much for sharing this link. I must admit when I first saw "WPA" in the header, I was taken aback. I guess I feel the same way about the WPA as some pool peeps feel about the action players, but I do try to keep an open mind. If it helps pool in the United States, then I'm all for it.

 

[JAM]

Some of you really crack me up!

To not want to give a dollar! Come on! You are acting as if it will kill you to donate 1 dollar to pro pool.

If pro pool had some organization it would be great to donate a dollar in some form or another. To help with the pro events or players who need help getting to events ect.

Also to help aspiring young players to make it to the pro level. Heck I would give a dollar a week if it helped the pro system work.

Remember this is the sport we love! So its up to us to help it grow!

I know plenty of pro players who give back to the sport in some form or another, so saying they don`t is pure heresay!

And if 1 dollar is going to kill ya then sure don`t give!





Sheesh!!! People loosen up!!!



H.P.



Jam ,if that pro player you speak of is Keith, I know of 1 young player who would love his autographed pic. Thanks

I'm sure glad to read your post, 9ball. I fear that you may be in the minority, but I like the way you think.

I have been instructed by Keith that we can't send out anymore photos. We saw some of the ones we sent out for free up for sale on eBay. It costs us almost 10 bucks for each photo we send out, e.g., postage, postal container for photo, and getting color photos printed at photo store. The asking price for Keith's autographed photo on eBay was less than it cost us to produce it. It was actually a little upsetting for me to see, since I did all the legwork.

That said, 9ball, if you ever attend a pool event that Keith is at, please come up and introduce yourself. We just made some new Keith souvenirs, for lack of a better word, that may be a nice keepsake. Hopefully, people will keep 'em rather than try to sell 'em. They're each numbered, signed, and a limited edition. :wink:

 

[Koop]

My guess is that you can’t have it both ways. The pool playing ethos is that of the hustler. It is about taking not about giving. If I give I am just another fish.

I suppose that if I saw pros giving to the pool playing world I might be more amenable. If I saw them encouraging the young player, putting on exhibitions for charity, organizing themselves in a professional manner, then I would be willing to kick in and help.

To kick in a dollar to send some amateur to a pro event where he could be netted by some pro on the make is not appealing.

Joe, you are absolutely correct, IMO.

I was just speaking with Mike Dechaine last night about this very type of thing. I think it would be a great idea for him to hold mini-clinics, challenge tables, etc...for all the league players to get to know him and have a shot to play against a pro.
Mike is a great, young guy who has tremendous talent. It will be nice to see him mix it up with the league players and it will also let the league players know that he is completely approachable, which can't be said for pro's in so many other arenas.

Koop

 

[JoeW]

Some of you really crack me up!

To not want to give a dollar! Come on! You are acting as if it will kill you to donate 1 dollar to pro pool.

It is not the dollar it is the way we play pool. BTW I was not talking about what I would do but the way in which I suspect that many others also perceive the pool playing world.

I am not even complaining. The way the world is, is fine with me. I think that there are some "issues" with the pool playing world as perceived by the general public, and this includes many of the league players who are simply out for an evening of fun with friends.

I played in the leagues for many years and have been exposed to many different league players. There are those who think they hustle, those who are aware of the hustler mentality, and those who ignore the whole set of issues surrounding the amoral nature of playing pool. But most are aware of it and I suspect that many see little reason to contribute to this type of endeavor when they could support the Olympics, the YMCA or other similar endeavors. Hmm lets see:

A dollar to the YWCA?
A dollar to the Special Olympics?
A dollar to the league operator for the support of pro pool?

 

[JAM]

Joe, you are absolutely correct, IMO.

I was just speaking with Mike Dechaine last night about this very type of thing. I think it would be a great idea for him to hold mini-clinics, challenge tables, etc...for all the league players to get to know him and have a shot to play against a pro.
Mike is a great, young guy who has tremendous talent. It will be nice to see him mix it up with the league players and it will also let the league players know that he is completely approachable, which can't be said for pro's in so many other arenas.

Koop

Koopster, I like the way you think, and Mike is perfect to do this kind of thing. Well said.

I'm sorry that the pros have not been approachable in some of the arenas. That is surprising. Wow! I guess times have changed since I've been on that doggone tournament trail.

 

[JAM]

Yeah, I could give 1,10,100,1000...to pro pool. Why would I? What is in it for me?

Certainly I will never see that money again, so it is a bad monetary investment.

Even if a couple of extra pros make enough to live better, history shows that most of them will lose it gambling, so it isn't a good humanitarian investment.

With all due respect, DoubleD, isn't this a little stereotypical to assume? Not all pro players gamble, FWIW. In fact, the trend today is that they don't gamble.

Nobody is going to thank me for putting the money in, so it can't even be an egotistic investment.

Maybe there is some way that it can be a sentimental investment, but being a pretty unsentimental guy, I cannot see how.

Maybe I am missing something. I give to charity, but not a 'charity' for pool players.

dld

I understand your thoughts better now. Thanks for sharing.