One Dollar

[JB Cases]

This thread is the epitome of what's happening to professional pool today. Very revealing and I'm glad
to learn why professional pool still has one tire in the sand.

John, can you fix that sig line, pretty please? It is a wee bit too long.

Some folks don't have wide-screen monitors, and every time you post,
some have to scroll from left to right to read what people write.

If you can take the picture on the right and drop it below the picture
on the left, that would be a great help. I think it's a great sig line.
TIA, John (I hope).

The two pictures were supposed to be one on top of the other and not side by side. I removed one. Is it better now?

 

[JAM]

The two pictures were supposed to be one on top of the other and not side by side. I removed one. Is it better now?

Thanks, John, and, yes, it is better, but I don't want you to remove it.

Can you make them smaller, so they don't take up as much east-west space?

I'm not sure why it's happening that way on my monitor. I don't have a wide-screen monitor, and I think that maybe the problem. I need to update my equipment for sure.

Thanks again, my friend!

 

[JoeyA]

Bangers or Benefactors!

it is to bad. I believe that a lot of people in this game think on such a small scale. They are looking to make a quick buck and bail. Our sport is so torn apart, there are just too many avenues. The only way our sport can become big is with these leagues. In the proposal, we have to show them what can be done. They will be able to use our face, but not on products. They can associate our face with there "official pro tour" merchandise. If it is shown to league players that there is a decent career past the leagues than it would be worth going for it at a young age. There is absolutely no incentive for anyone to become a good pool player today, none. With careful planning something can happen. We pro players are valuable enough for a corporate company to do something, we just need all the league players to be watching.

YES, you are correct, once again.

And how do you get the league players to be watching? ....................

By courting them, by entertaining them, by respecting them for the valuable contributors that they are to our sport. League players aren't second class citizens. They are by far the most valuable and most important segment of our fraternity/sorority.

You are on to something Mike.

I hope the rest of the pro players start seeing things as clearly as you do. As long as the league players are looked down upon by the pro players, they will never support the pro players.

League players are GOLDEN! Unfortunately, for the time being, I'm not one.

 

[ironman]

Bull
sheeeit!

You act like it is something done for the love of us? Jeezis!

They think it's ez-money for a while, then they realize the consequences of their choice when they have no job skills to market.

The World doesn't need people to play pool well!

I can go skiing now, the lesions are gone!

maybe some playing well won't change the world very much? This is true, but it seems horrible to me to tell someone his/her dream is worthless.
Choices are just a part of life and many fall victim of their choices I agree. We are all accountable about our decisions at some point.
My Step Dad was a great ranch manager and well known as a great Horse man. He realized he could not make a good living and gave it up and then earned a nice living as a Teamster truck driver. I have always felt he was very courageous for making the choices he made. I have always felt very guilty that he gave up his dreams and passion.
A year ago I went home and he was watching the cutting horses on DVD. I looked at him and tear ran down his face. It broke my heart!!
I hear Jams passion here and notice how she has mellowed on this subject over the past or recent years. i suspect she can relate to my short story here!!
I know there are many sides to this argument, but talent is such a horrible thing to waste.

 

[Mainplayer]

JoeyA. I believe they will watch when corporate companies are involved and the 1st place is a little more than $10,000.

You don't know how many times I have gone to a pro tournament at a casino or venue and a person walks up to me and asks, whats going on in there. Then there next question is, how much is first place? When I tell them $8,000 or $12,000 they say thats it! and walk away.

 

[JoeyA]

Study Group.........

JoeyA. I believe they will watch when corporate companies are involved and the 1st place is a little more than $10,000.

You don't know how many times I have gone to a pro tournament at a casino or venue and a person walks up to me and asks, whats going on in there. Then there next question is, how much is first place? When I tell them $8,000 or $12,000 they say thats it! and walk away.

Those people aren't necessarily league players (they could be casino gamblers), especially the ones whom you want to develop as fans, since they are at the casino/tournament already.

You want fans to be EXCITED, you want them to be INVOLVED and you want them COMMITTED to the cause. A study group of league players might be the right course of action to see what might motivate them to support the pro players...

Not saying bigger purses wouldn't make sweating the match more attractive....

 

[Black-Balled]

JoeyA. I believe they will watch when corporate companies are involved and the 1st place is a little more than $10,000.

You don't know how many times I have gone to a pro tournament at a casino or venue and a person walks up to me and asks, whats going on in there. Then there next question is, how much is first place? When I tell them $8,000 or $12,000 they say thats it! and walk away.

One cannot ignore how long the avg Joe has to work to earn that, vs. the tourney length...

 

[Black-Balled]

...it seems horrible to me to tell someone his/her dream is worthless. ...talent is such a horrible thing to waste.

Ahh, the 3rd oldest struggle:

When our weary world was young
The struggle of the ancients first began.
The gods of Love and Reason
Sought alone to rule the fate of Man.

 

[JAM]

maybe some playing well won't change the world very much? This is true, but it seems horrible to me to tell someone his/her dream is worthless.
Choices are just a part of life and many fall victim of their choices I agree. We are all accountable about our decisions at some point.
My Step Dad was a great ranch manager and well known as a great Horse man. He realized he could not make a good living and gave it up and then earned a nice living as a Teamster truck driver. I have always felt he was very courageous for making the choices he made. I have always felt very guilty that he gave up his dreams and passion.
A year ago I went home and he was watching the cutting horses on DVD. I looked at him and tear ran down his face. It broke my heart!!
I hear Jams passion here and notice how she has mellowed on this subject over the past or recent years. i suspect she can relate to my short story here!!
I know there are many sides to this argument, but talent is such a horrible thing to waste.

What a great story, and it definitely hit home with me. I wish professional pool was a worthwhile endeavor to those who have passion, but in these United States in the year 2010, there are so many variables.

We need new blood in the stable, but it is hard to attract new aspiring pro players when there's not much to offer in return.

I would love to see something happen for the better, but I'll be watching from the sidelines now.

It reminds me of the first time I ever spoke to Ronnie Allen. I was new to the pro tournament trail, and I was having the time of my life with Keith, meeting pool stars, watching great pool events, and traveling up and down the East Coast.

After chatting with Ronnie a spell, I asked him, "Ronnie, why aren't you enthusiastic about pool anymore?" I will never forget his reply. He said, "Jennie, when you've been beaten up by pool as much as I have, it's hard to be enthusiastic about it." I didn't understand him then, but I sure as heck understand him today.

Mamas, don't let your babies grow up to be pool players unless they live in the Philippines.

 

[Big Perm]

it is to bad. I believe that a lot of people in this game think on such a small scale. They are looking to make a quick buck and bail. Our sport is so torn apart, there are just too many avenues. The only way our sport can become big is with these leagues. In the proposal, we have to show them what can be done. They will be able to use our face, but not on products. They can associate our face with there "official pro tour" merchandise. If it is shown to league players that there is a decent career past the leagues than it would be worth going for it at a young age. There is absolutely no incentive for anyone to become a good pool player today, none. With careful planning something can happen. We pro players are valuable enough for a corporate company to do something, we just need all the league players to be watching.

Some very good points are brought up here....

Yep, pool players have had big opportunities in the past and done things to drive away sponsors for a quick buck.....many stories have been told by AZ members around this exact topic....

Leagues.....so many players play, and they'd all love to get to meet with pros and get tips....a little investment in time with these league players could bring huge rewards later to pro players....I think the BCA platform could lead the way here.....

Sponsors.....league players not only buy a ton of equipment, but they also like beer, sodas, sports drinks, and food items....gotta be opportunities here....

Hierarchy.....spelling might be off.....point being, pool has a BAD habit of having a class system.....B players see themselves as better than C, and A better than B, and so on......I've been guilty of it.....this has got to go....people have to appreciate other players, even if they are half your talent.....

Excitement.....fans want to see pros do something they cannot.....they want to see aggressive play with combos, jump shots, and fearlessness....not 4 easy shots followed up by a safe when somebody gets out of line.....defense in moderation....

Anybody can play pool, and for a reasonable price.....with this economy, I think pool is ripe for a big comeback.....just needs the right push....

 

[Zbotiman]

"Beaten up with no support."

What a great story, and it definitely hit home with me. I wish professional pool was a worthwhile endeavor to those who have passion, but in these United States in the year 2010, there are so many variables.

We need new blood in the stable, but it is hard to attract new aspiring pro players when there's not much to offer in return.

I would love to see something happen for the better, but I'll be watching from the sidelines now.

It reminds me of the first time I ever spoke to Ronnie Allen. I was new to the pro tournament trail, and I was having the time of my life with Keith, meeting pool stars, watching great pool events, and traveling up and down the East Coast.

After chatting with Ronnie a spell, I asked him, "Ronnie, why aren't you enthusiastic about pool anymore?" I will never forget his reply. He said, "Jennie, when you've been beaten up by pool as much as I have, it's hard to be enthusiastic about it." I didn't understand him then, but I sure as heck understand him today.

Mamas, don't let your babies grow up to be pool players unless they live in the Philippines.

....well here's an interesting thought on a problem that has plagued pool as a sport for years. What would the advertising demographic be for a corporate sponsor? Who out there is watching with money to spend? corporate bean counters always want to know this before they O.K. spending any of their advertising dollars!
Now obviously, this is only one problem among many, if your looking for a way to establish a Pro Tour with real money behind it. However, Mark Griffin's hope in the U.S.A. pool leagues, seems like a realistic way to promote a professional Pool Tour from within amateur pool ranks today. In January at Derby City, Mark Griffin did a two part interview for Accu-Stats, where he stated, that he would be promoting the concept of donating a portion of the league revenue to establish, Big Money, Pro Pool tournaments, or a scheduled Pro-event-Tour! In fact, CSI may have the way here, to tie the grassroots level league player to the Pro player, establishing a consumer market base demographic for advertisers to look at. Though this may seem a hollow first step, this demographic has to exist and be seen favorably to solicit Corporate money.
Average pool player's, traditionally, have not been quick to respond favorably to the Pro's in this sport. You find that most amateurs don't know even know who Shane Van Boening is or what sport he plays. When the amateur fan base in the sport doesn't even recognize the top American player in his home country! That's the definition of tough action in this or any other sport!
The U.S.A. Pool Leagues have proposed a way through donation sponsorship, to indirectly shine some favorable light onto this problem. By tying Pro Pool and the amateur league players together at the hip (something that has been tried, but never successfully done before) they would open the door for all kinds or information about Pro Pool and it's top players to be directed to the average League player on a weekly or monthly basis. This type of marriage would supply realistic data for advertisers to look at. Like it or not, it's amateur awareness of the Pro's that opens the conduit for advertising dollars to flow into our sport.
The U.S.A. pool leagues may not be an immediate solution, but long term this seems like a realistic way to establish pool as a "real" sport! Who knows, there one day maybe hope for "Big Money" in Pro-Pool yet?

 

[uwate]

This is not a new idea JAM, but the older versions of this idea have incomplete disclosure on the results. Especially if something has been done before multiple times, I am personally not in favor of doing it again until someone shows me how the previous attempts worked out and why.

 

[justadub]

I wonder exactly how much the current pro tours are interested in attracting spectators to events. Or how important that is to them.

Two examples. I live way the heck out in the woods, in central Maine. Last fall, the local APA LO had Mike Massey here for three appearances across the state. I never saw one poster in any of the three rooms that I play APA in. In his defense, it was mentioned prominently in the newsletters many times. But how would anyone who didn't play APA know? That example is perhaps a little closed-circle, due to the direct APA involvement, however...

...the Joss Tour is coming to a room in central Maine in a few weeks. The only reason I found out about it was by reading a thread Mike Dechaine started here to announce his new website, which I went to check out. Low and behold, there was an appearance schedule for him showing that tour stop. Again, not one of the three rooms I play in has any info on that posted. To be fair, I haven't scoured every wall of each room, but I'm quite sure there isn't anything I've missed.

If the pro tours want to attract more attention, would it be that difficult to send 8x11 notices to all the pool rooms in a 50-100 mile radius of upcoming events? I mentioned the Joss stop to some of the guys I play with, one of them was quite interested in going and miffed that he hadn't heard about it earlier.

This is just one symptom of the disconnect. In my opinion, until there is some sort of national organization, one that is concerned with all levels, not just the pro's, the sport won't change much. I agree that regular interaction with Leagues is probably necessary, since that's the single biggest audience. I hope the Leagues decide to try and accomodate the pro's, and give them a forum that is appropriate. I really hope Mike get's his ideas listened to by people who can and will do something about it.

To the original post, yeah, I'd give a dollar. Of course.

 

[Black-Balled]

This is not a new idea JAM, but the older versions of this idea have incomplete disclosure on the results. Especially if something has been done before multiple times, I am personally not in favor of doing it again until someone shows me how the previous attempts worked out and why.

The someone that comes to mind for me is Charlie Williams. He caught a ton of flack, but I firmly believe he began with the best intentions.

As to whether he would grant his experience to another party (competitor?), small probability, IMO.

 

[OUSooner]

Asking amateurs to subsidize professional pool is not the answer. Cleaning up the image of pool and making it attractive to a tv audience is. Create a singular professional authority like one of the earlier posters suggested is the first step. Something akin to the PGA, NBA or NFL. Get the drugs out of pool. Enforce a dress code. Have a code of conduct. The dollar investment isn't going to do anything for pool. Making it attractive to outside sponsors is the answer. Change the way pool is broadcast. Only the diehards want to see the entire match. Take a lesson from golf and only show the highlights and the leading match. Willie Hoppe was playing for a 10k purse 80 years ago. He was doing shaving cream ads, the whole deal. Golf didn't pay anything back then. Fast forward 80 years. Pool has continued to send its image down the toilet. Golf made a major effort in the 50's to clean up its image. The result of that today is that the players near the bottom of the money list in the PGA make more than the most successful pool players.

I'm all for streaming live matches and such but it does nothing for pool when the two players playing look like vagrants at a bus stop.

Pool has a product to offer but it needs to get its house in order before becoming financially viable.

 

[Mark Griffin]

Amateurs and pro pool players

In the nesxt day or two I wil try to explain just exactly what USAPL is doing.

We currently have 8 leagues either in operation or getting up and running in next 30 days.

$.50 goes to the 'pro pot' each week for each player.

There is NO MEMBERSHIP FEE to join. The idea is to make a low barrier and get some numbers. This took close to 2 years to make happen (legal crap-software etc).

BUT it is up and running. As of this moment, there is $3,600 in the pro pot.

I really believe it is the future and the only way to make pool work together between amateurs and pro players. Obviously, there will be requirements from both sides.

it is exciting! Because while others are talking - we are doing!!! I am hoping some of you will join us.

Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI - BCAPL - USAPL

By the way, there have ben some great points made in this thread.

 

[ironman]

Asking amateurs to subsidize professional pool is not the answer. Cleaning up the image of pool and making it attractive to a tv audience is. Create a singular professional authority like one of the earlier posters suggested is the first step. Something akin to the PGA, NBA or NFL. Get the drugs out of pool. Enforce a dress code. Have a code of conduct. The dollar investment isn't going to do anything for pool. Making it attractive to outside sponsors is the answer. Change the way pool is broadcast. Only the diehards want to see the entire match. Take a lesson from golf and only show the highlights and the leading match. Willie Hoppe was playing for a 10k purse 80 years ago. He was doing shaving cream ads, the whole deal. Golf didn't pay anything back then. Fast forward 80 years. Pool has continued to send its image down the toilet. Golf made a major effort in the 50's to clean up its image. The result of that today is that the players near the bottom of the money list in the PGA make more than the most successful pool players.

I'm all for streaming live matches and such but it does nothing for pool when the two players playing look like vagrants at a bus stop.

Pool has a product to offer but it needs to get its house in order before becoming financially viable.

i have to agree with a lot of what you say here. But it doesn't just begin and end with the pro players. We spread far more negativity than the pros do.
What threads are most popular even with us. They are the cation threads and then the old road stories. Even then most of the feedback is a bout dumps and scams. Not many here can mention anything about pros without refering to hustling, Hustlers and Sharks and fish.
hell, there are very few Hustlers left. Very few!
not everyone who gambles is a Hustler. Would you call Chris Bartrum a Hustler? I surely don't. He is a warrior and I fully respect that about him, but I have never thought of him in terms of a Hustler.
I just feel the whole game should be cleaned up and not just pro's.

 

[JB Cases]

Asking amateurs to subsidize professional pool is not the answer. Cleaning up the image of pool and making it attractive to a tv audience is. Create a singular professional authority like one of the earlier posters suggested is the first step. Something akin to the PGA, NBA or NFL. Get the drugs out of pool. Enforce a dress code. Have a code of conduct. The dollar investment isn't going to do anything for pool. Making it attractive to outside sponsors is the answer. Change the way pool is broadcast. Only the diehards want to see the entire match. Take a lesson from golf and only show the highlights and the leading match. Willie Hoppe was playing for a 10k purse 80 years ago. He was doing shaving cream ads, the whole deal. Golf didn't pay anything back then. Fast forward 80 years. Pool has continued to send its image down the toilet. Golf made a major effort in the 50's to clean up its image. The result of that today is that the players near the bottom of the money list in the PGA make more than the most successful pool players.

I'm all for streaming live matches and such but it does nothing for pool when the two players playing look like vagrants at a bus stop.

Pool has a product to offer but it needs to get its house in order before becoming financially viable.

There is way more hustling in golf than in pool. Pool does not have an image problem.

The two biggest booms in pool happened because of films showcasing the gambling/hustling side of pool. Both films were about hustlers who didn't want to be hustlers - they wanted to be the best and be known as the best.

Pool has no Backer. That's the major problem, pool doesn't have a leader who steps up to make it happen. In just about every other sport you will find a strong leader who took the reins and made it happen.

Pool is just that activity that everyone knows is there but no one pays much attention to. And it's because there is no one who can get it together enough to produce and sell a viable product to corporate America.

That's why it starts with a consistent tour. Even it it were low dollars, $20k first prizes but one a month like clockwork - that would be a start.

Like every business there has to be something to sell and that product should be as refined as possible.

In our industry we have a production company who is capable of producing TV quality broadcasts - Accu-Stats. We have numerous other video production outfits that are getting better every day.

Imagine a tournament where Accu-Stats and TAR along with several other streamers worked together. Can you see how much content could be produced in a four day tournament? Then edited and sold to television around the world. And re-edited later for different markets? Maybe Asia wants to see more of their stars stacked up against the rest of the world - no problem - we have the content from the backroom to the final table - with a lot of human interest stories thrown in.

Derby City alone provides ENOUGH content to keep ESPN showing off major awesome pool and pool stories for a year.

Sports Illustrated has ran many stories focused on the great players in the game. Pool has no image problem. Pool has everything that the American imagination thrives on.

What it does not have is a good producer and a good agent.

 

[JB Cases]

I thought I would throw my 2 cents in on this discussion.

As a business person, sports fan and pool fanatic I would love to see a pro tour get off the ground the right way.

You need to start small in order top get this off the ground.

Any long time sports fan will recall that 30-40 years ago, MLB players, NHL players ans NFL players did not make that much more than your average joe. They just got to play sports for a living. The big money did not come until TV revenue.

What a tour would need is a group of pros who would play as much for the love of the game as money because the money would not be that great in the first few years.

Players need to have the ability to win $70,000 or more a year but not have a guaranteed salary. They need to start this thing for the love of the game

The first part of the plan would involve a players comittee that would write up a plan and approach all leagues looking for $500,000 in sponsorhip money form all leagues combined. They would have to sell the idea of what the tour would do for the leagues (how many new members). They would have to commit to having a tour event at each of the leagues National Championships to help draw interest to it.

With this funding they hire a commissioner and he/she then hires 2 other staff to get this off the ground. The first 6 months are scheduling and planning and the next 3 are qualifying the tour pro's.

You need to start off by qualifying 64 pros. That could generate 500,000 in qualifying fees using another posters numbers. That plus the sponsorship money is enough to get the office going and build a sizeable advertising fund as well.

Schedule 20 events per year - each entry has a $300 entry fee for the 64 pro's and 32 wild card spots (32 spots X 16 qualifiers X 100 entry fee) generating a total of 70,000 per event. Thus you have a total purse of 1.4 million in the first year. Each event would pay out the top 24 with $20,000going to the winner.

The sponsorship money can be used to offset shortfalls or spent on advertising or kept as an asset for the business. In short the tour players are guaranteed their 1.4 million.

The second year, the top 32 tour money leaders keep their cards for a $500 fee and then you run 32 qualifiers again generating another 250,000 for the Tour.

They cycle has been started. With the proper promotion by the leagues, dedication and enthusiasm by the pro players, and some smart business planning by the comissioner, they cycle could continue and the yearly purses would increase. Eventually you get a Versus type cable network to pick up a few tour events and now you have a national stage.

The pro players would be encouraged to seek sponsors to help with travel costs and entry fees as ther WPBA players now have.

It could take 5 years but the cycle could soon be good enough to have 2-3 million or more purse for the players.

Just some thoughts from a Leagueguy

This has some similarities to the IPT's model. If someone would do just exactly this then it would grow and grow.

The IPT proved that when the money's right people will pay to play in qualifiers.

Backers show up who want a piece of the pie, sponsors are eager to be a part.

But no one can go it alone. It's too much, too overwhelming. Someone is going to have to sacrifice in order that others may succeed.

Who will it be?

 

[Zbotiman]

And T.V. cares about what?

Asking amateurs to subsidize professional pool is not the answer. Cleaning up the image of pool and making it attractive to a tv audience is. Create a singular professional authority like one of the earlier posters suggested is the first step. Something akin to the PGA, NBA or NFL. Get the drugs out of pool. Enforce a dress code. Have a code of conduct. The dollar investment isn't going to do anything for pool. Making it attractive to outside sponsors is the answer. Change the way pool is broadcast. Only the diehards want to see the entire match. Take a lesson from golf and only show the highlights and the leading match. Willie Hoppe was playing for a 10k purse 80 years ago. He was doing shaving cream ads, the whole deal. Golf didn't pay anything back then. Fast forward 80 years. Pool has continued to send its image down the toilet. Golf made a major effort in the 50's to clean up its image. The result of that today is that the players near the bottom of the money list in the PGA make more than the most successful pool players.

I'm all for streaming live matches and such but it does nothing for pool when the two players playing look like vagrants at a bus stop.

Pool has a product to offer but it needs to get its house in order before becoming financially viable.

Good Luck with finding T.V. sponsorship for Pro Pool! Television wants a fully produced product and all broadcast rights for "FREE, PERIOD!!!" In other words, you must give them an Accu-Stats, T.V. quality production, and they give you in return, a negotiated split on the advertising revenue stream to recoup the cost of the production and post production.
So the question quickly becomes, how do you financially produce T.V. quality coverage of a Pool Tournament? Sooner or later, it all comes down to corporate advertising money and they want to see viewing numbers and demographics. If pool is to survive (and that's up for grabs at this very moment) it will have to find it's patronage from within, from a grassroots fan base. The people who love the game and want to see it played by the very best that their sport has to offer! Unfortunately today, my experience has shown me the average person really doesn't understand, or even love pool that much! So their must be more awareness of what good, excellent, and fantastic pool is!
Most amateur players I've met, think Jennette Lee is the best "nine-baller" on the planet! Now my guess is, (no disrespect to her) George gets the best of it on their home table.
Believe you me, television executives at ESPN don't want to see live streaming on their network, EVER!
And by the way, as for the men, they have "O chance" of ESPN T.V. coverage, even if they made all the stipulations and changes you've mentioned. Unfortunately for this sport, that ship has sailed and it will take a new vessel to get pool back on the Tube! Unless of course your talking about YouTube!