One-Foul vs. Two-Foul

[DogsPlayingPool]

I have to think about this some more -- I could be wrong about the 1 ball and whether or not Parica would shoot it.....

Hmmmm....

2 Foul does seem more interesting -- that's for sure.

I thought your previous post was very perceptive, it's often more about the difficulty of getting position on the next ball. As for Parica's situation on the one ball, with push-out he may be more inclined to go for the shot only because a safety is not much of a defense as it is in TE since if you hook your opponent he just pushes out. But even so he still may choose the safety over a difficult shot because if he misses he likely sells out to a guy of that caliber. It is not hard to believe that he might still shoot the safety even though Keith could just push out rather than sell out the rack on a miss. In that regard it becomes more of a chess match.

 

[BeiberLvr]

RE: Parica cutting the 1 down the rail if playing two foul.

I thought players would be more inclined to go for the tough shots if a two way was available. What's a good two way shot here? It seems if he goes for it and misses he probably sells out.

 

[King T]

I not sure I understand?

Actually, the primary advantage of pushout is to give the player a fair chance to hit the lowest numbered ball on the table. All other advantages are secondary to this.

Everything you wrote after your 1st sentence is not wrong but it's also not relevant. How the game is played when pushing-out is strategy and that's different in many cases based on the playing abilities and knowledge of the players involved.

My pics show two good examples of two top players who probably would've shot an offensive shot but instead were forced by the rules to play a safety.

ONB

Pushout is not intended to give a fair chance to the incoming player. It changes the game, but it doesn't make it better unless you shoot as straight as Earl and that is not all the game is about.

 

[peppersauce]

................

 

[Island Drive]

Roll Out

There's realy no evidence that says the better player wins a higher percentage of games in 2 foul. ,, it's pure speculation at best ,, what I've found is the lesser player is the one who takes more chances because he feels when he has that opening he better take that chance it's the higher levle player , that takes less chances playing the odds

1

Huh...........:scratchhead:

When I beat Earl in 79 he definitely out shot me for four sets, but he never won a set. What happened was JUST THE OPPOSITE of your statement. Can you tell me why I got lucky, even tho we played 6 hours?

 

[Pidge]

9 ball at best is a dull game to watch what ever the rules. Bringing back a set of rules that were in use decades ago isn't going to do anything for the game.

Out with the old, in with the new. That goes for the rules and people in pool.

 

[one stroke]

Huh...........:scratchhead:

When I beat Earl in 79 he definitely out shot me for four sets, but he never won a set. What happened was JUST THE OPPOSITE of your statement. Can you tell me why I got lucky, even tho we played 6 hours?

A blind squirrel finds a acorn every once in a while ,, or there is a exception to every rule
what I am saying is most lower level players , take shots they should not be shooting , they feel if they don't they may not get another chance

1

 

[HawaiianEye]

what I am saying is most lower level players , take shots they should not be shooting , they feel if they don't they may not get another chance

1

After a period of time, that is EXACTLY the case. They become "gun shy"!

I have a shot that I pull on my buddy EVERY Sunday and he has finally realized that when he leaves me that shot I am going to GO FOR IT! I have played a lot of bank pool, one pocket, and most other games in my life and I know the angles even if I can't hit them as often as I used to be able to. I will push to a 4-rail bank and he WON'T even see the shot until he passes it back. I have made this shot on him so many times I can't even count it. And I CALL the shot before I even shoot it and kid him about it. I made it 3 times in a row in just a couple games last week and CALLED it every time before I even got back out of my chair. He keeps asking me HOW I CAN SEE THE SHOT.

After a while the lesser player will GO FOR this shot, even if they can't make it...because they KNOW you are going to go for it. When they miss, it is your turn again.

 

[CJ Wiley]

it's essential to at least "stick your toe in" before judging the game.

I'm happy to see you add to the Two Foul conversation, you definitely know what you're talking about. 2 Foul becomes a strategic battle with both players using their cue and knowledge as a weapon.

Trying to explain 2 Foul to those that have never gambled at it is like trying to explain the ocean to someone that hasn't been to one......in both cases it's essential to at least "stick your toe in" before judging the game.

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." - Herbert Spenser

After a period of time, that is EXACTLY the case. They become "gun shy"!

I have a shot that I pull on my buddy EVERY Sunday and he has finally realized that when he leaves me that shot I am going to GO FOR IT! I have played a lot of bank pool, one pocket, and most other games in my life and I know the angles even if I can't hit them as often as I used to be able to. I will push to a 4-rail bank and he WON'T even see the shot until he passes it back. I have made this shot on him so many times I can't even count it. And I CALL the shot before I even shoot it and kid him about it. I made it 3 times in a row in just a couple games last week and CALLED it every time before I even got back out of my chair. He keeps asking me HOW I CAN SEE THE SHOT.

After a while the lesser player will GO FOR this shot, even if they can't make it...because they KNOW you are going to go for it. When they miss, it is your turn again.

 

[HawaiianEye]

I'm happy to see you add to the Two Foul conversation, you definitely know what you're talking about. 2 Foul becomes a strategic battle with both players using their cue and knowledge as a weapon.

Trying to explain 2 Foul to those that have never gambled at it is like trying to explain the ocean to someone that hasn't been to one......in both cases it's essential to at least "stick your toe in" before judging the game.

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." - Herbert Spenser

Aloha CJ. I saw Hawaiian Brian last night and chatted with him for a bit. I was using your old cue that you used to beat Earl in the "Million Dollar Challenge" tournament and showed it to him. First thing he said was "it isn't custom"...LOL.

Due to health reasons, he isn't playing anymore but he still knows what's happening on the table.

 

[SJDinPHX]

This argument has been going on ever since the rules were changed to one-shot foul, to (supposedly) speed up the game..The reason 9-ball purists like Buddy Hall, (and many other top player's) hated the new one-shot foul rule, is really quite simple...A good playing defensive player, like Varner for example, (or even a 'lucky' amateur)..would have a much better chance of outmoving a great shotmaker, especially in a short race...9ball, began to resemble snooker !..Then they added a ball (ten ball) which actually only slowed it up again, and made it worse..:embarrassed2:

Remember, at the same time Texas Express rules were introduced, they also incorporated BIH 'anywhere' on the table, instead of from behind the kitchen line, and all balls stayed down. (the death of the spot-shot).. This did not affect the 'average players' game, NEAR as much as two highly skilled, smart players...This ultimately became a double-edged sword, as it also made the game less enjoyable, and more confusing, for the average "Joe six-pack" in the audience..The 'WOW' shots, were seen much less often, and 9-ball often became just a boring safety struggle !

Myself, I was kind of glad to see it happen, as it led to the emergence in popularity, of my favorite game..'one pocket' !.. If defensive play, and cueball control, was going to determine the out come of 'any' pool game or match, IMO there is no more highly skilled game to better feature that, than one pocket !

Granted, 1P, will never be popular from an average, uneducated spectator point of view..But as the new generation of 1P player's (Frost, SVB, Alex, etc.) are starting to advance a premium on shot making, and ball running, it is starting to make one pocket the most exciting, and popular way to gamble at pool ! (or high $$$$ tournaments)...As always, the best player usually wins..There is really NO way to ever change that !.. Lets stop trying to customize, and constantly change, and adjust the rules. Lets get back to enjoying a good, hard fought test of skill, WHATEVER the game !

SJD

PS..For my money, the best test of a player's "ALL AROUND" skill level, will always be 'plain old 8-ball' !..And EVERYBODY (including 'Joe Six-Pack') knows how its played ! ...(it sure as hell ain't Bonus Ball.)

 

[CJ Wiley]

Rodney Morris who comes from the bloodline of a Hawaiian Grand Master in martial arts

It's custom with that shaft I included, I doubt if anyone else has the "McDermott/Meucci" combo like you do.

Yeah, last time I saw Brian he was suffering from chronic arthritis and couldn't play. He's still an entertaining by with a sparkle in his eye. He was a great influence on Rodney Morris who comes from the bloodline of a Hawaiian Grand Master in martial arts. People can say what they wish, the insiders know that Rodney's game is even stronger than Shanes when it comes to offense....he just doesn't break quite as well.

Aloha CJ. I saw Hawaiian Brian last night and chatted with him for a bit. I was using your old cue that you used to beat Earl in the "Million Dollar Challenge" tournament and showed it to him. First thing he said was "it isn't custom"...LOL.

Due to health reasons, he isn't playing anymore but he still knows what's happening on the table.

 

[HawaiianEye]

It's custom with that shaft I included, I doubt if anyone else has the "McDermott/Meucci" combo like you do.

LOL! I call it my "McMeucci".

I am going to have Bob Meucci make the same shaft for my custom cue that I had Mike Pancerny make me out of a old 1950s Titlist house cue that I got out of Detroit. It plays great and I have a custom 314-2 shaft that I had him make for me, but I prefer the Meucci PRO to the 314-2. The Meucci shaft on the McDermott has a different pin.

Here is my Pancerny.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=281865&highlight=pancerny

 

[SJDinPHX]

He was a great influence on Rodney Morris who comes from the bloodline of a Hawaiian Grand Master in martial arts.

CJ...Puhleeeeeeeeze tell me what this has to do, with the topic at hand ? (ie; the title of this thread)..You just covered up a post (#31) that I spent an hour on, attempting to explain 'rule changes' to the uninitiated...That is REALLY quite rude !

SJD

PS..Your constant deviation, to completely 'non-pool' related topics, may be one reason you are always defending yourself from the 'CJ hater's' !...But, you seem to be oblivious to that fact !

 

[HawaiianEye]

The 'WOW' shots, were seen much less often, and 9-ball often became just a boring safety struggle!
SJD

This is why I don't watch soccer either! I don't want to watch "kicking" over and over and over for the whole game before a single point is made.

 

[one stroke]

This is why I don't watch soccer either! I don't want to watch "kicking" over and over and over for the whole game before a single point is made.

I guess I don't get wowed easily because Iv may have seen a half dozen shots in my life that wowed me



1

 

[CJ Wiley]

Rodney Morris is pool related, he is, on any given day the world's best pool player

There is a delay as new posts are refreshed, I didn't see yours before I posted mine. fyi (this mean for your information) I actually thought you wrote a nice post, it's appreciated when you refrain from insulting behavior.

Rodney Morris is pool related, he is, on any given day, the best pool player in the world.
The fact that he comes from a bloodline of Kahuna is interesting to me, may because I took the time to study their culture for 8 days on the Big Island (Huna Training).

Rodney is a very interesting player, his style, charisma and looks are exactly what any sport would need in their professionals. Not to mention he's funny and willing to joke around and and have a drink with friends of the game he's passionate about.

CJ...Puhleeeeeeeeze tell me what this has to do, with the topic at hand ? (ie; the title of this thread)..You just covered up a post (#31) that I spent an hour on, attempting to explain 'rule changes' to the uninitiated...That is REALLY quite rude !

SJD

PS..Your constant deviation, to completely 'non-pool' related topics, may be one reason you are always defending yourself from the 'CJ hater's' !...But, you seem to be oblivious to that fact !

 

[CJ Wiley]

even Efren wouldn't bet he could 2 in a row unless there were close to the pocket.

Yes, I agree, you won't see many wowing shots in the one foul game, unless it's a "kick" and even Efren wouldn't bet he could make 2 in a row unless they were close to the pocket.

Watching 2 Foul is a totally different scenario. When the rules are right, you may see 5 wowing shots in a match, and you can count on it time, after time, after time.....and the reasons are simple and can be specifically demonstrated on the pool table.

I guess I don't get wowed easily because Iv may have seen a half dozen shots in my life that wowed me



1

 

[one stroke]

Yes, I agree, you won't see many wowing shots in the one foul game, unless it's a "kick" and even Efren wouldn't bet he could make 2 in a row unless they were close to the pocket.

Watching 2 Foul is a totally different scenario. When the rules are right, you may see 5 wowing shots in a match, and you can count on it time, after time, after time.....and the reasons are simple and can be specifically demonstrated on the pool table.

you right about one thing it's flawed at the core , there is no wow in pool no matter what game or what shot ,,
That's why it will never ever be anything other than a 3rd or 4th tier sport / game

1

 

[Mikjary]

You can possibly combine the two games and try and gain support from both camps. Play call shot (maybe) and allow a push out after a called safety. Allow only one or two called safeties per game and the same for push outs.

You'd lessen the safety play and BIH's and still have the push out option. After two safeties, you'd have to shoot for the pocket. Allow two way shots at all times, so kicking would be involved.

If you used up your pushes, you'd have to kick or give up BIH. Safety play would force the opponent to use up their pushes or kick for the ball. Limiting the number of safeties would encourage a strategy of using two way shots to limit your opponent's access to good position if you miss a shot. Pushing out after the break for the breaker does not count as using one of their pushes.

Best,
Mike