One guy uses the magic rack - Everyone else the wooden rack

Yes and we can bring different shafts, tips, and hell, have you seen Earl and his elbow protection/weights LOL? But we can't swap out cueballs willy-nilly, or racks if the other player objects. That is the core of the issue here, not so much if it's better to use this or that, but given the guidelines provided, which is other tournaments having a set rule for rack use where both players have to agree (outside of CSI which explicitly notes that you can't deny use of the MR, but seeing how they are distributing the thing and it's mandatory in the 9 and 10 ball we can probably leave that out as a factor), plus the fact that there was no rule given out that any of the players can use any rack and you can't say anything, I just don't see how the ref or TD can allow the other player to use the MR over the objection of someone.

Plus we had a CSI trained ref say in the situation given "no way would I allow the MR to be used".

What if one guy wanted to switch tables but one did not? Say if they were assigned that table by the tournament director, Mr A and Mr B, table 4. One guy did not like how the cloth looked and wanted to switch, Mr B said, no I like that table. Then what? If the table was technically fine, no rips, rails were normal, etc... would it be OK to force the switch? I am going to guess that no-one can say "yes force the switch" with any type of solid reason. That is the same thing here, if the rack they used was good, and one guy did not want to allow use of the MR, it should not be over-ruled and be allowed. And if the rack was NOT good, then a suitable regular rack replacement should be found first before they use the MR.

As a neutral party, discounting your own preference for what rack to use or what YOU would do if someone asked to use the MR, with the fact that there are a lot of other tournaments and areas that already made the ruling and said BOTH plyers have to agree and that is the call that a ref would make, there is really only one correct ruling, and the TD in this case did not make that choice. There is huge amount of evidence one way, and mostly personal opinions the other way.

I'm not even saying that the guy was horrible and in idiot for making that call, that it was 100% clear as to what to do because it is not. I would say 80% of the reasoning would sway towards not allowing the MR use. Yes, 20% is that it's a legal rack and it's a good rack and really what is the huge deal, but I think the other 80% that the ruling was already made in a LOT of other places and actual tournaments and that we have a ref saying his call would be not to allow it, well outweighs the other side of things.

Don't worry about it, man. I think the naysayers, as I said, either just aren't good enough for the magic rack to make a difference, or rely on it to make up the difference between themselves and better players.

Plus, they are not even trying to understand that this was not about the winning or losing of the tournament. It was just a cash tournament, no trophy, and only 23 people in it. Last place money got twice their entry fee back, and a significant amount was taken out for "administrative fees", so the payout was fairly skewed. It's about the principal of one guy using a magic rack, getting the speed of the break down in his previous 4-5 matches, and then getting to enforce the use of the rack because a weak TD didn't know enough about running tournaments to make a fair decision.

I have seen even mid-level players play perfect matches with the magic rack. Yeah, I am gonna practice with it, because it is used in national tournaments. And I still argue it should not be forced on a player in a local tournament unless the venue provides one for everyone. If the venue does, then I am completely fine with it...

Short Bus Russ
 
Did you ask him what he would have done if a TD allowed his opponent to use the MR anyway?

No, but I'm sure he'll say "nothing". It was a hypothetical situation anyway since I am pretty sure no pro in a tournament would bring their own rack, I was just asking more for the sake of those that posted that the rack should be allowed anyway for more evidence for my stance on the topic. I was 95% sure he would have said the ref would not let him use it.

Trying to over-run the enemy position with overwhelming odds here LOL
 
I'm really surprised how many people are defending the use of the Magic Rack in this instance.

I'm stuck between thinking the Magic Rack ruins bar table 9 ball or it just about ruins it. It's one or the other.

Bar Table 9 ball used to be a decent game and only the best bar table masters would really stand out and run lots of racks, but with these template racks the game has become so simplified that it doesn't even resemble the game of the past. It's just way too easy to play with them. Once the break speed is properly gauged, you will just about never see a cluster and you will always make the wing ball.

Once both the randomness of the break and the power break are eliminated it becomes very difficult to tell the difference between a B player and a truly great bar table specialist.

I think these template racks are huge equalizers when it comes to 9 ball and I'm shocked everybody else doesn't see it this way.
 
Hell I'm a C player and can string a few together with the magic rack lol. That tells you the difference it can make.
 
I'm really surprised how many people are defending the use of the Magic Rack in this instance.

I'm stuck between thinking the Magic Rack ruins bar table 9 ball or it just about ruins it. It's one or the other.

Bar Table 9 ball used to be a decent game and only the best bar table masters would really stand out and run lots of racks, but with these template racks the game has become so simplified that it doesn't even resemble the game of the past. It's just way too easy to play with them. Once the break speed is properly gauged, you will just about never see a cluster and you will always make the wing ball.

Once both the randomness of the break and the power break are eliminated it becomes very difficult to tell the difference between a B player and a truly great bar table specialist.

I think these template racks are huge equalizers when it comes to 9 ball and I'm shocked everybody else doesn't see it this way.

Bravo, BasementDweller...

I came up in the game in around the age of 19-22 in WA state playing guys like Stan Tourangeau, Dan Louie, and Glenn Atwell in the monthly 9 ball tournaments.

I know it took some force to make balls on the break, even with a side rail break, so a player HAD to be good at playing safes off of a 1rst ball stuck in the middle of the top or bottom rail, since that is where the 1 often ended up. The players with a really stellar break would make 2-3 balls and had a better chance of getting an open shot at the 1.

Anyone who advocates in any way for the magic rack in barbox 9 ball either has never effectively competed with this caliber of player, or does not have enough knowledge to know the difference between these beasts and a decent A player.

I have actually met quite a few players of the latter ilk in Colorado. They talk up guys who can easily get the 6 ball in 9 ball on any table from my list above.

Short Bus Russs
 
I'm really surprised how many people are defending the use of the Magic Rack in this instance.

I'm stuck between thinking the Magic Rack ruins bar table 9 ball or it just about ruins it. It's one or the other.

Bar Table 9 ball used to be a decent game and only the best bar table masters would really stand out and run lots of racks, but with these template racks the game has become so simplified that it doesn't even resemble the game of the past. It's just way too easy to play with them. Once the break speed is properly gauged, you will just about never see a cluster and you will always make the wing ball.

Once both the randomness of the break and the power break are eliminated it becomes very difficult to tell the difference between a B player and a truly great bar table specialist.

I think these template racks are huge equalizers when it comes to 9 ball and I'm shocked everybody else doesn't see it this way.

I can see a case for the consistency of the MR.....
...but make the break box one diamond wide and one diamond out from the middle of
the end rail.

But I quite agree with Russ on the TD's decision, it was weak.
I've had some days that I might cut his MR to pieces and give him the replacement money.
 
I've never been a fan of the term nit, but I think it might actually be appropriate here. What bothers me even more is that we're arguing over barbox 9-ball. BARBOX 9-BALL! I do have a question, though. On a barbox, if you rack the 9 on the spot, does it still wire the 1 and wing balls? What if you break from the box? Does that apply for both the magic rack and triangle?
 
Ok are we talking rules wise right move fair move here or morally right and wrong????

What are we talking here?

Rules wise, unless the TD stated what racks would be used before hand, then the TD can make any ruling he wants and it's legal and correct.

If you're talking about morally right and wrong, I think some clarifications would need to be made before I would agree one way or the other.

Is it rack your own, or opponent rack? Winner break or alternate break?

All of those things would influence the moral correctness of the TD's choice.

If it's rack your own, then it could be argued that you give yourself what you give yourself, no need for a magic rack. If it's opponent rack, the MR makes giving your opponent a slug rack much more difficult and the TD was morally right to make the choice he did.

If it's winner breaks then that is even more exacerbated.

Jaden
 
If every other player did indeed use the regular rack, why was the one guy allowed the magic rack? I don't see the point. It's either everybody or nobody gets to use it. That is a fault of the TD. Too many rack mechanics these days. Even in my APA league you got noobs that doctor the rack big time. Least the magic rack cuts down on that, I would hope.

Shorty
 
so I'm moderately comfortable with my mental game right now

Short Bus Russ

I am not sure how you can say that when you yourself say you checked out and 2 stroked everything because he got to use it.

The magic rack does not make a bad player good, nor does it put them on equal ground even when it comes to breaking.

What it does do is make sure the rack is as it should be (all balls touching) regardless of skill level and every single rack should be that way from the get go.

I say, if it is good enough for the professionals to use then it is good enough for all "you" professional good player wannabe's.
 
Shorty,

You as the breaker are responsible for making sure the rack is correct. If you have issue with it you make them rack it again. Even the APA rules state this.
 
..........
 

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... Too many rack mechanics these days. ...
The MR tends to eliminate those.

This whole discussion confirms what has been known for nearly 15 years: the break at 9 ball is broken. Play 10 ball instead or use any of the proposed fair solutions for 9 ball.
 
The magic rack does not make a bad player good, nor does it put them on equal ground even when it comes to breaking.

Yes it does. Note, I probably have a different definition of a "bad player" than you do, as I can beat the ghost on a 9 foot Diamond Pro/Am...

I am sorry, but if you think the magic rack does not equalize skill, then pick any good shortstop you want, back Shane against him in barbox 9 ball where Shane has to use the wood rack and his shortstop opponent gets to use the magic rack.

Shane will get absolutely crushed, and I will bet on that. You can even make it winner breaks, it won't matter.


I say, if it is good enough for the professionals to use then it is good enough for all "you" professional good player wannabe's.

It's NOT good enough for professionals. The only reason they play with it is because the tournament director's force them to. No offense, but I am starting to believe that the majority of magic rack supporters on here can't compete otherwise. I can and HAVE.

Those who stated I should have just forfeited the match instead of playing are correct, I think. That would have made it clear that I was making a statement, and I didn't just "play bad".

I just don't think you guys really have any idea. Tony Piazza came in to MHB in Arvada and tried to spot me in 8 ball on the barbox and got drilled. I don't get a lot of people in this state offering me any spot on the barbox. I didn't just "play bad" in this set. It was more of a conscious decision to show the guy my distain for him and he move.

But, if anyone thinks I am a sucker, come look me up.... :-D

Short Bus Russ
 
In regards to the OP and just to clarify a few things in this thread, I'm the guy Russ played.

First off, this tournament series if you want to call it that is called Stay In Stroke (SIS) and has apparently been around for a while. They usually have a tourney a month or every couple and it's typically a $40 entry with a calcutta as well. You play enough events and then you get qualified for a big end of the year event (I got a few rolls and won it last year without the MR....) I've been around the area for a year and a half (so fairly new). I play 1 day a week and sometimes 2 if I'm really lucky or if I'm playing a tournament and really look forward to it. I love the game, but just don't get to play as much as I would like. I asked Richard (guy who owned and ran SIS tourneys) maybe a year ago, if magic racks are allowed in his events and he said absolutely, but you must give your opponent the option of using it if you bring your own. At MHB which is the main place Russ and I play, it's the same way in regards to just having to offer it to your opponent for their tourneys big or small. Occasionally, they'll announce some info regarding the MR prior to their 9ball tourneys. They have a couple MR's at their venue, but I've always brought my own for their tourneys as well because I don't like to rely on others for equipment. I've played in several of their events now and have brought my own magic rack to a couple of them (some events are 8ball, 9ball, or mixed with both) and never previously had an issue. I've always mentioned it to my opponent before hand and typically they use it as well, just like in this tourney and just like how Russ used it too.

Richard recently retired and passed SIS on to a woman we'll call Suzie and she has only run a couple of their events now. When Russ objected I mentioned that offering the MR to your opponent was their previous rule and said lets ask Suzie. Suzie was not familiar one way or the other and said she would make a couple calls. She said she would go by what BCA has or something like that. To be honest, I really didn't know if it was offer it to your opponent or both have to agree (according to BCA or whomever she was going to call) and figured I would play by whatever her decision was. Was this right or wrong, idk? 15 minutes later she came back and said it's offer it to your opponent as Russ stated. I can understand how Russ may not be thrilled about the MR, since he clearly is against it and there was nothing said about it in their rule sheet or prior to the tourney to the best of my knowledge. I think a potential solution in the future for SIS tourneys if they choose to allow MR's, would be to stipulate at the start or prior to the tourney the rules and stipulations under which MR's are allowed. They also pass out a printed rule sheet prior to the tourney with the bulk of their rules and what not. I don't believe anything is mentioned about the rack on there. If they allow MR's to be used in the future as they have been in the past, they may want to state that on their printed rule sheet as well.

To be honest, I really didn't think it was that big of a deal. I can completely understand people being for or against the magic rack. The wing ball is wired 98% of the time as others have said. I can especially see how others really dislike it when people super soft break with it and pattern rack, giving themselves cosmo layouts. Even with this being said, I like to use it because it's quick and easy to get the balls tight and I don't have to monkey with the rack for a minute to make sure everything is tight. I'm very capable of using the wooden rack on Diamond tables with simonis and making the wing ball 70 plus percent of the time (and the 1 in the side occasionally), but would rather use a template if given the choice. I really never thought of myself having a big advantage over my opponent (with MR) because I don't think it's that difficult for anyone that's used one before to make a ball and avoid scratching, even without practicing with it. With an alternating break format, unless the first breaker runs out every time I don't really see a problem with it. This is just my opinion.

In regards to our match and how the MR affected it, I was a little rattled to with the pre match controversy so to speak, but just tried to focus and thought I played well. I guess I really didn't notice the 2 stroke give up stroke until end, but I wasn't really paying attention to you, I was focused on the table. I spotted you the break and you broke well making a ball and controlling whitey. You failed to get out, I ran out and then Broke and Ran and think I had a somewhat easy layout. You fail to get out again and I run out and break and run again. The second Break and Run, I back cut long rail banked the 1 in with shape jacked up from the short rail so it wasn't like I had a cosmo....From there being up 4-0 in the race to 6, I know we each made a mistake in the 5th rack and eventually I ran out. In the last game, I didn't have a shot on the 1 and had to push out. Eventually you missed a makeable cut on the 6 or 7 and said "oh look I missed, loudly and jokingly" and I figured you didn't give that one your best effort. To be honest though, I really didn't think the MR affected our match that much in regards to what people typically complain about with the MR. For starters, I'm not saying I hit the break hard, but I don't baby it either like some do. I also don't pattern rack, just like I told Russ prior to our match. I throw the 1 in the front and 9 in the middle and let her rip. I had maybe 1 cosmo layout and pretty much made everything I shot at, including 3 or 4 banks (yes my shape sucks...) and at least made a good hit in the safety exchanges. We also didn't have any early combos and I don't believe I ever had even close to the same layout every time. My 3 breaks: 1. I had a shot on the 1, 2. I had to bank the 1, 3. I had to push....What does the results of this match mean, not a whole lot really. Would the results of our match been different if we would have used a wooden rack, who knows. I won and it's going to happen sometimes. I've played Jose and ATM with the MR in a winner break format and got crushed too, it happens....I've also beat good players with and without the MR and that will happen too. I'm sure we'll play plenty of times in the tourneys around here, since we typically play in the same divisions. I've never told anyone or think that I'm a better player than you. I respect your game and know you have passion for it. Apparently, you don't respect my game that much and that's fine, but if you think I'm not going to beat you in tourneys sometimes no matter what rack we're using, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Summary:
I'm not sure if myself or the TD made a bad call in this situation, but just thought I would put a little bit more information out there, since I felt like some people were throwing the tourney director under the bus.

Marcus Lynch
 
Yes it does. Note, I probably have a different definition of a "bad player" than you do, as I can beat the ghost on a 9 foot Diamond Pro/Am...



I am sorry, but if you think the magic rack does not equalize skill, then pick any good shortstop you want, back Shane against him in barbox 9 ball where Shane has to use the wood rack and his shortstop opponent gets to use the magic rack.



Shane will get absolutely crushed, and I will bet on that. You can even make it winner breaks, it won't matter.









It's NOT good enough for professionals. The only reason they play with it is because the tournament director's force them to. No offense, but I am starting to believe that the majority of magic rack supporters on here can't compete otherwise. I can and HAVE.



Those who stated I should have just forfeited the match instead of playing are correct, I think. That would have made it clear that I was making a statement, and I didn't just "play bad".



I just don't think you guys really have any idea. Tony Piazza came in to MHB in Arvada and tried to spot me in 8 ball on the barbox and got drilled. I don't get a lot of people in this state offering me any spot on the barbox. I didn't just "play bad" in this set. It was more of a conscious decision to show the guy my distain for him and he move.



But, if anyone thinks I am a sucker, come look me up.... :-D



Short Bus Russ


Are you serious. Shane is here right now. You put up the money and Rory Hendrickson can play him. If you don't know Rory look him up in the USBTC the last few years, and see who he a defeated.

He will not crush Shane. Probably will not even win. It won't be because of choking as they have played each other for years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
In regards to the OP and just to clarify a few things in this thread, I'm the guy Russ played.



First off, this tournament series if you want to call it that is called Stay In Stroke (SIS) and has apparently been around for a while. They usually have a tourney a month or every couple and it's typically a $40 entry with a calcutta as well. You play enough events and then you get qualified for a big end of the year event (I got a few rolls and won it last year without the MR....) I've been around the area for a year and a half (so fairly new). I play 1 day a week and sometimes 2 if I'm really lucky or if I'm playing a tournament and really look forward to it. I love the game, but just don't get to play as much as I would like. I asked Richard (guy who owned and ran SIS tourneys) maybe a year ago, if magic racks are allowed in his events and he said absolutely, but you must give your opponent the option of using it if you bring your own. At MHB which is the main place Russ and I play, it's the same way in regards to just having to offer it to your opponent for their tourneys big or small. Occasionally, they'll announce some info regarding the MR prior to their 9ball tourneys. They have a couple MR's at their venue, but I've always brought my own for their tourneys as well because I don't like to rely on others for equipment. I've played in several of their events now and have brought my own magic rack to a couple of them (some events are 8ball, 9ball, or mixed with both) and never previously had an issue. I've always mentioned it to my opponent before hand and typically they use it as well, just like in this tourney and just like how Russ used it too.



Richard recently retired and passed SIS on to a woman we'll call Suzie and she has only run a couple of their events now. When Russ objected I mentioned that offering the MR to your opponent was their previous rule and said lets ask Suzie. Suzie was not familiar one way or the other and said she would make a couple calls. She said she would go by what BCA has or something like that. To be honest, I really didn't know if it was offer it to your opponent or both have to agree (according to BCA or whomever she was going to call) and figured I would play by whatever her decision was. Was this right or wrong, idk? 15 minutes later she came back and said it's offer it to your opponent as Russ stated. I can understand how Russ may not be thrilled about the MR, since he clearly is against it and there was nothing said about it in their rule sheet or prior to the tourney to the best of my knowledge. I think a potential solution in the future for SIS tourneys if they choose to allow MR's, would be to stipulate at the start or prior to the tourney the rules and stipulations under which MR's are allowed. They also pass out a printed rule sheet prior to the tourney with the bulk of their rules and what not. I don't believe anything is mentioned about the rack on there. If they allow MR's to be used in the future as they have been in the past, they may want to state that on their printed rule sheet as well.



To be honest, I really didn't think it was that big of a deal. I can completely understand people being for or against the magic rack. The wing ball is wired 98% of the time as others have said. I can especially see how others really dislike it when people super soft break with it and pattern rack, giving themselves cosmo layouts. Even with this being said, I like to use it because it's quick and easy to get the balls tight and I don't have to monkey with the rack for a minute to make sure everything is tight. I'm very capable of using the wooden rack on Diamond tables with simonis and making the wing ball 70 plus percent of the time (and the 1 in the side occasionally), but would rather use a template if given the choice. I really never thought of myself having a big advantage over my opponent (with MR) because I don't think it's that difficult for anyone that's used one before to make a ball and avoid scratching, even without practicing with it. With an alternating break format, unless the first breaker runs out every time I don't really see a problem with it. This is just my opinion.



In regards to our match and how the MR affected it, I was a little rattled to with the pre match controversy so to speak, but just tried to focus and thought I played well. I guess I really didn't notice the 2 stroke give up stroke until end, but I wasn't really paying attention to you, I was focused on the table. I spotted you the break and you broke well making a ball and controlling whitey. You failed to get out, I ran out and then Broke and Ran and think I had a somewhat easy layout. You fail to get out again and I run out and break and run again. The second Break and Run, I back cut long rail banked the 1 in with shape jacked up from the short rail so it wasn't like I had a cosmo....From there being up 4-0 in the race to 6, I know we each made a mistake in the 5th rack and eventually I ran out. In the last game, I didn't have a shot on the 1 and had to push out. Eventually you missed a makeable cut on the 6 or 7 and said "oh look I missed, loudly and jokingly" and I figured you didn't give that one your best effort. To be honest though, I really didn't think the MR affected our match that much in regards to what people typically complain about with the MR. For starters, I'm not saying I hit the break hard, but I don't baby it either like some do. I also don't pattern rack, just like I told Russ prior to our match. I throw the 1 in the front and 9 in the middle and let her rip. I had maybe 1 cosmo layout and pretty much made everything I shot at, including 3 or 4 banks (yes my shape sucks...) and at least made a good hit in the safety exchanges. We also didn't have any early combos and I don't believe I ever had even close to the same layout every time. My 3 breaks: 1. I had a shot on the 1, 2. I had to bank the 1, 3. I had to push....What does the results of this match mean, not a whole lot really. Would the results of our match been different if we would have used a wooden rack, who knows. I won and it's going to happen sometimes. I've played Jose and ATM with the MR in a winner break format and got crushed too, it happens....I've also beat good players with and without the MR and that will happen too. I'm sure we'll play plenty of times in the tourneys around here, since we typically play in the same divisions. I've never told anyone or think that I'm a better player than you. I respect your game and know you have passion for it. Apparently, you don't respect my game that much and that's fine, but if you think I'm not going to beat you in tourneys sometimes no matter what rack we're using, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.



Summary:

I'm not sure if myself or the TD made a bad call in this situation, but just thought I would put a little bit more information out there, since I felt like some people were throwing the tourney director under the bus.



Marcus Lynch


Great post that clarifies some things


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Marcus,

I do appreciate you coming on here to post your viewpoint on the matter, and I appreciate your non-confrontational manner. I will fully admit that I get pretty heated when it comes to the game and what I feel is proper and improper.

I will continue to hold the view that a player should not be allowed to bring a rack different than that provided by the venue, and then basically force his or her opponent to play with it.

My particular reasons for this are that I know for a fact it changes the game, having played many non-MR tournaments. I know for a fact it would have changed the game with myself and Bill Skinner. With the MR, he would have made a ball on the break at least 2 of his three racks.. Without it, he dry broke and lost. Bill plays well enough that if he makes a wired ball off the break, he is out 80% of the time. That would have been a 4 game swing.

In the end, those running a tournament can do whatever they want. They can run an 8 ball tournament with no requirement to get a rail after contact. I've played and won those before, but it embarrassed me to have to use "roll up to a ball to hook my opponent" tactics, but I had no choice, because I have to take advantage of my first chance at the table, or else my opponent was gonna do it right back to me.

Just because a tourney director decides to use some goofball rule like that doesn't mean I have to like it.

I do feel that one person bringing a magic rack to a tourney where everyone else is breaking firmly off a wooden rack and then forcing the opponent to switch in the last set is kind of hokey. If I see it happen, I am still gonna have my own judgement about that player, and that is just that.

That being said, I'll definitely put in a little more time with the magic rack, because at least some room owners in the area seem to prefer it as well as tournament directors. I also do acknowledge that I've probably had good results recently despite my mental game, not because of it. I guess the conditions/opponent really shouldn't matter, as this kind of adversity actually makes a win more memorable.

Short Bus Russ
 
... That being said, I'll definitely put in a little more time with the magic rack, because at least some room owners in the area seem to prefer it as well as tournament directors. ...
I think you would better spend your time pushing for a change to 10 ball (maybe with 9 ball rules). Why continue to play a broken game?
 
I think you would better spend your time pushing for a change to 10 ball (maybe with 9 ball rules). Why continue to play a broken game?

Been there, tried that, Bob... This particular room owner has expressedly voiced his preference for the magic rack, and he likes that the wing ball goes in 90% of the time.

Short Bus Russ
 
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