One Pocket issue that’s really bothering me

[fjk]

Punt on first down.

A bold strategy.

How about rolling up to the bottom ball off the end rail?

That'd mess with some minds if you did it with regularity.

On that topic, back in the mid 80s, I made the bad decision to play Ray Martin in one pocket. I knew who he was but to me, he looked like an old man with a bad stroke (he wasn't that old, but I was a teenager). I really thought I could beat him. I believe I lost 10 straight racks (or something like that). However, a few of those racks came down to the last ball. And at least a few times, I put the cue and last object ball both on the rails, 9 feet apart. Those are scary shots if you don't have an angle to lob it towards your hole. Ray took an intentional scratch. I've never seen anyone do that before in that situation. He also used about 3 or 4 different kinds of breaks on me. Again, I never even seen those before. He made the whole session "uncomfortable" for me because I never played anyone who played like that before. Kinda hard to explain.

That lesson cost me a lot money. He was a nice guy though. Quiet, didn't say a word other than the occasional compliment on a nice shot.

 

[Black-Balled]

On that topic, back in the mid 80s, I made the bad decision to play Ray Martin in one pocket. I knew who he was but to me, he looked like an old man with a bad stroke (he wasn't that old, but I was a teenager). I really thought I could beat him. I believe I lost 10 straight racks (or something like that). However, a few of those racks came down to the last ball. And at least a few times, I put the cue and last object ball both on the rails, 9 feet apart. Those are scary shots if you don't have an angle to lob it towards your hole. Ray took an intentional scratch. I've never seen anyone do that before in that situation. He also used about 3 or 4 different kinds of breaks on me. Again, I never even seen those before. He made the whole session "uncomfortable" for me because I never played anyone who played like that before. Kinda hard to explain.

That lesson cost me a lot money. He was a nice guy though. Quiet, didn't say a word other than the occasional compliment on a nice shot.

Yeah, those bullies are nothin but trouble!

 

[book collector]

I love the shot, but I am not playing it for serious money, especially if my opponent gets to touch the balls , ie spot them. If you do, make sure you check. I have looked and the bootm ball was 1/4 inch from straight and also had the balls be 1/8th inch apart. And if I could have gotten a hydrometer out ,I can be fairly certain some of the balls would have had saliva dripping from them It is real hard to not sell out, when your opponent is that type of person.

 

[dr_dave]

Have you ever made both balls from behind the line? Is the shot possible using regular, clean and polished balls?

Yes, but it ain't easy. It needs to be shot like this, with the CB a little farther back along the same line to be in the kitchen:

This shot took many attempts to get the angle, spin, and speed just right. The balls were typical condition (with no chalk added).

To me, because the exact shots comes up frequently, it seems there should be a consensus, go-to, best, highest probability move from that spot.

The answer obviously depends on the player and table conditions (and maybe even the game/match score situation). In general, the offensive approach demonstrated here is good (with the CB a little farther back along the same line to be in the kitchen), trying to leave the CB as close as possible to the head rail:

​

Love your videos by the way!

I'm glad to hear it.

 

[fjk]

The game score would always be the same in that situation (you have ball in hand behind the line with two balls on the spot). You have 7 and your opponent has 6. I don't believe there can be another scenario in that situation. And the match score shouldn't make a difference...wouldn't you always want to shoot what gives you the highest probability of winning?

That leaves player and table conditions. But despite those two variables always changing, almost everyone always chooses the exact same break. Being that this scenario, like the break, always comes up exactly the same way, every time, it seems like there should be "one best shot" that decent players use in that situation...just like the break. I mean, the break takes skill too, and you can screw it up and leave a shot if you hit it bad, so it's not like it's automatic. But again, regardless of skill level, players almost always choose the same traditional break.

From what it sounds like, you would say concentrating on making the front ball and lagging the back ball by your pocket is the best choice (assuming you have the basic skills necessary to execute that shot). I wouldn't argue that choice.

 

[jtompilot]

Solution from Mars:

Jump the cue ball with precision so as it begins its descent, it cuts the rear ball in the corner. (Tom Cruise to play this one in "Color of Money Deux").

I have played that shot several times when the CB was about a foot away, and made it

 

[BilliardsAbout]

I have played that shot several times when the CB was about a foot away, and made it

Coolness. Good work!

It should be an exhibition shot for Mike Massey from the head string!

 

[dr_dave]

From what it sounds like, you would say concentrating on making the front ball and lagging the back ball by your pocket is the best choice (assuming you have the basic skills necessary to execute that shot). I wouldn't argue that choice.

I guess great minds think alike.

 

[bbb]

The game score would always be the same in that situation (you have ball in hand behind the line with two balls on the spot). You have 7 and your opponent has 6. I don't believe there can be another scenario in that situation. And the match score shouldn't make a difference...wouldn't you always want to shoot what gives you the highest probability of winning

From what it sounds like, you would say concentrating on making the front ball and lagging the back ball by your pocket is the best choice (assuming you have the basic skills necessary to execute that shot). I wouldn't argue that choice.

there could be balls in the kitchen so the score does not have to be 7-6 in favor of you.
billy incardona /scott frost/ jeremy jones were discussing this (if i remember correctly)
the most conservative thinking is if you need one you play safe
if you need 2 you try to make the front ball and bring the back ball to your pocket
billy said he always plays to make the front ball regardless of score
because its a shot he is comfortable with
scott said as he has gotten older if he needed one he is starting to play safe more
jeremy made an interesting comment
that in this situation neither player has the advantage scorewise
he said because a good player if he makes the first one he is a more than likely going to make the next one too
surprising to me that noone posted to bank the back ball and bring the cue ball 2 rails to the head rail
(i could have missed it)

 

[bbb]

fwiw
i have seen alex play to make the front ball and only draw back a little distance instead all the back into the kitchen
so he would have a better shot at the back ball that comes back near his pocket to win the game
thats how confident he was to make the front ball

 

[fjk]

there could be balls in the kitchen so the score does not have to be 7-6 in favor of you.
billy incardona /scott frost/ jeremy jones were discussing this (if i remember correctly)
the most conservative thinking is if you need one you play safe
if you need 2 you try to make the front ball and bring the back ball to your pocket
billy said he always plays to make the front ball regardless of score
because its a shot he is comfortable with
scott said as he has gotten older if he needed one he is starting to play safe more
jeremy made an interesting comment
that in this situation neither player has the advantage scorewise
he said because a good player if he makes the first one he is a more than likely going to make the next one too
surprising to me that noone posted to bank the back ball and bring the cue ball 2 rails to the head rail
(i could have missed it)

To keep it simple, I was only talking about the end game scenario. It's down to the last ball and you hang it deep in the jaws of your pocket. Your opponent makes it and follows it in. Two balls spot and you have ball-in-hand behind the line. You need one and your opponent needs them both. Comes up all the time.

When I was younger, I always one railed the bottom ball and pulled the cue around to the opposite top corner. The problem is you need to load up the cue a little, which means sometimes it gets away from you and you hit a bad shot and scratch. After I scratched on a few I started getting a little gun shy with that shot. Good comments from those legends, thanks for passing them on to us. It's interesting that such a common scenario has such varied opinions.

 

[fjk]

fwiw
i have seen alex play to make the front ball and only draw back a little distance instead all the back into the kitchen
so he would have a better shot at the back ball that comes back near his pocket to win the game
thats how confident he was to make the front ball

I think the reason why the cue is drawn all the way back is twofold: one to transfer your cue's backspin to follow on the front ball (I don't think you can make that front ball otherwise). The second is to not leave your opponent close to his work if it doesn't go (maybe even giving up a simple one rail bank). From behind the line, I can only make that front ball 10-20% of the time. It ain't a gimmie, at least for me. Maybe if I was playing on fast cloth with new balls (like the pros do), that percentage would be higher. Really though, getting that front ball close and leaving your opponent long is probably everyone's main objective. Going in is a bonus. Plus, if you're shooting that shot with ball-in-hand on the last two balls, you only need one.

 

[bbb]

I agree with your reasoning for drawing the cue ball back to the kitchen
For me more for “ protection”. Since i miss it more than make it but i get it close alot
Now there are 2 balls near my pocket
And he has to also deal with distance
I wont say I never play the safe because I do
but I like the shot going for the front ball and drawing all the way back as a “controlled aggression “shot
It’s aggressive. You can win the game with it and I’ve gotten to be able to hit it decent enough that I rarely sell out.

 

[alphadog]

I agree with your reasoning for drawing the cue ball back to the kitchen
For me more for “ protection”. Since i miss it more than make it but i get it close alot
Now there are 2 balls near my pocket
And he has to also deal with distance
I wont say I never play the safe because I do
but I like the shot going for the front ball and drawing all the way back as a “controlled aggression “shot
It’s aggressive. You can win the game with it and I’ve gotten to be able to hit it decent enough that I rarely sell out.

Don't you have to bet something to sell out?

 

[bbb]

Don't you have to bet something to sell out?

No

 

[Cornerman]

Two balls on the spot, ball in hand behind the line. Besides the break, it’s the only shot that comes up exactly the same every time, and it comes up pretty frequently. I would really like to know the best shot from that position.



Issue 1: Making both balls. I have asked that question here (who’s seen it?) and lots of people said they’ve seen it. I know lots of guys that said they’ve made it. I’ve been playing One Pocket for 45 years or so, and I’ve never seen it. One time I asked a young Jim Rempe to make it; he tried about 15-20 times and only a few attempts were even close.



I recently spent a few hours trying to make it. I can double bank the back ball about 45-50% of the time. I can force the front ball in about 10-20% of the time. But because both shots are hit so differently, I cannot even come close to making both balls. Unless there’s some way of hitting that shot that I’m not aware of, I’m thinking you must need new, perfectly clean balls and new, fast, cloth stretched just right. Has this shot been made and caught on camera somewhere?



Issue 2: What’s the best shot to take from that position? I’m embarrassed to say that I don’t have a go-to shot, I do whatever I feel like on that particular day. If I’m really trying to win, I seldom try to make either ball. To me, it’s just too risky trying to control all three balls to not give up a shot should I miss. If I really want to win, I usually soft split hit the two balls, push them over by my pocket and try to put the cue on the nameplate. Not too exciting or aggressive, but it’s a low risk shot that puts pressure on your opponent (especially if you manage to stick the cue on the rail and get a little lucky on where the two balls end up).



This has Dr. Dave’s name written all over it. Where is he and how much does he charge to solve all this?

Did you ask the onepocket.org forum?

 

[jtompilot]

First pic. I just barely missed the two railer. Your shot.

Second pic. I made the two railer. My shot

 

[Bob Jewett]

Here's a video from a while back. It shows three ways to play the head ball. The second and third way are played without draw helping the shot. And yes, the standard draw method worked on the first try. It helps to practice your long, straight draw shots.

The third way -- off angle and the cue ball taken three rails with inside follow to the opposite corner -- was shown in Billiards Digest by Wade Crane. It doesn't get much speed on the front ball.

 

[fjk]

Here's a video from a while back. It shows three ways to play the head ball. The second and third way are played without draw helping the shot. And yes, the standard draw method worked on the first try. It helps to practice your long, straight draw shots.

The third way -- off angle and the cue ball taken three rails with inside follow to the opposite corner -- was shown in Billiards Digest by Wade Crane. It doesn't get much speed on the front ball.

Ha, that middle one ball going to straight into the pocket at 1:46 was flat out weird. I would have bet money that wasn't possible.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Ha, that middle one ball going to straight into the pocket at 1:46 was flat out weird. I would have bet money that wasn't possible.

So.... You don't know the 10-times-fuller system? It was only put in print 30 years ago.