Opinions regarding a former top pro playing in and dominating a Poolroom‘s weekly handicapped tournament?

[Biloxi Boy]

Again, I feel it is all about the attitude of the visiting pro. For instance, is he playing loose or tight? Is every shot and shape a matter of life and death or will he allow himself to take a chance and maybe miss but have a good time playing -- win lose or draw?

Everyone has avoided naming names here, and I will gladly follow suit. I used to run into an older player who it seems simply forgot to come in off the road. Everyone knew him and vice versa. He was always looking for action, but if there was no action, by god, he was going to play pool, because that is what he did. Always had a smile on his face. I am certain he knew he was playing way below his ability but his attitude was never that we were lucky to be playing with him, but rather, he seemed grateful to get to play in "y'alls great little tournament, ring game, etc.". He was not acting. He was 100% real. As in the situation I discussed re JAM above, he was simply doing something he enjoyed and was glad to find a comfortable spot in which to settle for a while. I ran into this player on probably 15-20 occasions. We were always glad to see him, and he seemed happy to be part of our thing for a while. Never heard anyone complain. But he simply was not the type to cause folks to complain.

 

[ChrisSjoblom]

It seems to me that the only players with a halfway legitimate gripe here would be the higher level locals that would stand a strong chance of winning the tournament if the ex-pro were not there. The lower level players stand much less of a chance overall whether or not the ex-pro plays. If that assumption is correct then why not do something to even it out a bit for the higher level locals?

I'm thinking of something like this. If the ex-pro enters the tournament the top 3 places will go into a hat and be randomly drawn for 1st place, 2nd place and 3rd place money. Alternatively 1st, 2nd and 3rd could just chop the money by mutual agreement. Also, anyone in the rest of the field that was beaten twice by the ex-pro gets double their entry fee back, with the funds for that being taken from the ex-pro's winnings.

Just thinking out loud here.

 

[Black-Balled]

That 400 has more than a one third chance of winning the 10-2 race. And every player over 430 can have a close to even race with that 700. The 700 wouldn't win the tournament most of the time unless the spot between the 700 and the 600 is the real culprit. Some places will say the 600 "is a 7," and the 700 "is a 10." If you do that, you both have long races and the 700 has a 75% chance of winning the match. My guess is they are not doing handicaps based on rating differences and a match chart.

I killed quite a few weeklys and In my experience, a 400 v 700 has about a zero chance to win any given game.

The 400 is going to give the 700 a shot at the last 3 balls every game and it is unlikely 700 won't take control every time.

 

[boogieman]

The plain truth is that when you have a very dominant player vs. a much less skilled player- the less skilled player almost never gets to table situations that will help make them battle ready - when you are getting crushed you learn nothing in terms of close match/ critical shot nerve management.

You might learn the importance of shooting someone's liver out, and how to be ruthless to win games. It's like playing those bastards that never leave you a shot... eventually one starts to understand that that's the proper way to play pool. You didn't necessarily lose because they were "better" but that they controlled the table better. I mean, it's not rocket science but sometimes seeing is believing.

 

[Smutzc]

I appreciate that the name of this retired top pro has not been mentioned…. But damn does it make me wonder who it is!! lol

 

[boogieman]

handicaps are to make everyone even or very close to it.

if they dont do that then they are flawed and useless. and are deceptive and make those on the wrong aide of it being basically cheated.

unless stated that the handicap favors the better players disproportionately. then its players beware.

Even "hot" Fargo handicaps give a significant advantage to the better player. I wish the site had an "even" handicap feature to where it was within a percent or two of even.

I remember playing in a house league that had a great handicap system. You might have to give someone 70 points or something on a set, but if you played your best you could win. If you played your B or C game, you would likely get beaten. Same for the lower rated player, if they played their "B" game they lost. I wish I had payed more attention to how that handicap system worked because it was a real good experience. Add into that that it was all ball fouls and it made for a good introduction to serious pool.

It was fun because even though the gap in skill could be massive, you had to play good to win. It really kept both players on their toes.

 

[xX-Wizard-Xx]

he could tell the regular players to quit complaining and get better ....

 

[westcoast]

I believe Ray is closing in on 90.

yes- he is 88

 

[Fore Rail]

Here's a quote form the CSI BCAPL league operators handbook

The BCA Pool League defines a professional player as anyone with a Fargo rating greater than 720.

If is was me I would worry about my majority & simply tell this former top pro that my tournament is not for him.

 

[Coos Cues]

That 400 has more than a one third chance of winning the 10-2 race. And every player over 430 can have a close to even race with that 700. The 700 wouldn't win the tournament most of the time unless the spot between the 700 and the 600 is the real culprit. Some places will say the 600 "is a 7," and the 700 "is a 10." If you do that, you both have long races and the 700 has a 75% chance of winning the match. My guess is they are not doing handicaps based on rating differences and a match chart.

I am of the opinion that your handicaps fall apart at around 300 plus difference in fargos. The same way aiming systems fall apart at the margins of cut angles. I have seen all your data examples and was not convinced.

There is a skill difference point where the higher rated player playing seriously can prevent a player without the ability to break and run from ever winning a single game. Particularly 8 ball where 8 balls must be cleared and there are no early wins.

For example even at my skill level of 599 a "medium" race with a 299 would be 11-2. I would lay a pretty decent bet that I can beat a legitimate 299 player 11-0 in 8 ball. Any day of the week.

 

[ctyhntr]

I was streaming a tournament, TD didn't know JoAnn Mason Parker and put her in as B. She played fabulous, and was next up on the TV table. We get alot of women who play jam up, just came back after raising kids. As soon as the kids can fend for themselves, back to the pool hall. At the time, none of us realized she was a retired WPBA until a friend watching the stream called us up. Come Monday, I'm hanging out with the table mechanic at Amsterdam, and he gushes about her. I find out she even had her own line of cues.

Pre-COVID, I ran a friendly weeknight tournament. One of the regulars vouches for a new player. So, I put him in as C+ instead of B. After losing his first match hill-hill he complains his initial handicap was too high. So, I said I'll look into it and call other TDs in my area and finds out he used to be a local short stop.

 

[mikepage]

I am of the opinion that your handicaps fall apart at around 300 plus difference in fargos. The same way aiming systems fall apart at the margins of cut angles. I have seen all your data examples and was not convinced.

There is a skill difference point where the higher rated player playing seriously can prevent a player without the ability to break and run from ever winning a single game. Particularly 8 ball where 8 balls must be cleared and there are no early wins.

For example even at my skill level of 599 a "medium" race with a 299 would be 11-2. I would lay a pretty decent bet that I can beat a legitimate 299 player 11-0 in 8 ball. Any day of the week.

Have you see the chip tournament data? Here is the bottom line

 

[SmoothStroke]

Ban him for being a thief not his skill level. The only thing other players will learn from him is how to steal.
It's nothing new when cash is involved.
I would say to tighten up the handicaps but it sounds like there are many players
that can't make one in a row with ball in hand, no disrespect to them.

 

[mikepage]

Even "hot" Fargo handicaps give a significant advantage to the better player. I wish the site had an "even" handicap feature to where it was within a percent or two of even.

If you click on the "races" tab, the one that is highlighted in the HOT column (i.e., 6-2 here) is the one that is closest to 50/50

 

[Jimmorrison]

Since the tournament is handicapped, it doesn’t need to be capped. I wouldn’t even consider banning this player. Find a way to make it work.

 

[j2pac]

Clearly the handicap is off.

I've never learned a single thing while getting my brains beat in.

I learn a lot more by watching from the sidelines or video.

Getting your brains beat in and losing $$$ only helps the one beating you to death. Another scam that a whole lot of dummies got tricked into believing so they could steal your money.

The second you can play better than that person and you win $$$ they quit playing you - if it were true, they'd keep playing you so they could learn.

People in the pool world

The first, quickest, cheapest, and easiest lesson I ever learned playing against someone like that, was go play someone else.

 

[mikepage]

Since the tournament is handicapped, it doesn’t need to be capped. I wouldn’t even consider banning this player. Find a way to make it work.

I too am not a fan of banning players.
People keep suggesting the player is just being transactional and is there for the money. That's certainly possible.

It's also possible that pool has been this person's life, that he likes being around other players, a pool room is a place where he has felt the most respect and connection with people, and he likes the competition.

Make it so he maybe has a small edge but not a big edge, and you'll find out which is the better description

 

[Fatboy]

If I ask the judge for Community Service.....does that mean I am Communist?

Noooooo common man!

 

[FeltyFran]

The weekly at my home room is open the first week of the month, 600 max the rest of the month. Seems to work.

A 400 isn't going to win anything around here and I'm not sure why someone at that level would complain about anything anyway.

We have a local 750+ that has a rep for robbing the local weeklys but he's pretty well known. I personally don't mind playing top players in a tournament, it's not like you're gonna get hurt.

We have plenty of guys that play 650+ ball, and at that level you can match up if it's about the money.

 

[fastone371]

he could tell the regular players to quit complaining and get better ....

Did you read the opening post? Since the player we are talking about is a former top pro why do you suppose that he isn't playing in tournaments where other pro's are? Without knowing this player there is no way to know what his motives are. Don't you think he should be playing with a group that is a better fit, especially being a former pro??