Organize

Johnnyt

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
It would seem to me that if the pros REALLY wanted an organization they would have one by now. You have the BCA, APA, and a few others I can’t think of right now. They could pay their dues online or through the mail or other ways. If your dues aren’t paid and you show up for a tournament…you don’t get to play… period.

How much would it cost to run a good organization? $5 a man/woman a month? Everyone keeps saying the hard part would be collecting the money. I say that’s BS if all the tournaments stick together and stand behind the no pay, no play rule…they will pay up. There are tons of people right on AZBilliards that are capable of running it. I just feel that if they had a pro organization just to organize the players to start with…the purses would go up too…in time. Johnnyt
 
Its alot easier said than done. Prior to the IPT, I was making some headway on uniting some of the TD's together along with several top industry leaders. KT showed up with money and diverted their attention his way. It will take a long time for us to refocus and get the right people involved with any future project. It takes more money than you would think, and people need to put the game of pool first - not themselves. I think that Frank Alvarez has a good view of the situation with the UPA, he just needs the support of the fans and the players and I think he will do just fine.
 
Blackjack said:
Its alot easier said than done. Prior to the IPT, I was making some headway on uniting some of the TD's together along with several top industry leaders. KT showed up with money and diverted their attention his way. It will take a long time for us to refocus and get the right people involved with any future project. It takes more money than you would think, and people need to put the game of pool first - not themselves. I think that Frank Alvarez has a good view of the situation with the UPA, he just needs the support of the fans and the players and I think he will do just fine.
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Could an organization work with JUST the players paying dues...not the TD's?
 
If Frank Alvarez put pool first, he wouldn't have diluted the brackets in Las Vegas with his name. Instead, invite someone who doesn't go 2 and out everytime he plays in a pro event. It's kinda like Bud Selig insisting that he get to play first base for the Yankees.
 
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Blackjack said:
Its alot easier said than done. Prior to the IPT, I was making some headway on uniting some of the TD's together along with several top industry leaders. KT showed up with money and diverted their attention his way. It will take a long time for us to refocus and get the right people involved with any future project. It takes more money than you would think, and people need to put the game of pool first - not themselves. I think that Frank Alvarez has a good view of the situation with the UPA, he just needs the support of the fans and the players and I think he will do just fine.
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Do you believe that Frank Alvarez, as the UPA Player Representative, should be qualified to compete in the BCA Open this year based on the UPA's ranking system? Therein likes the rub, Blackjack!

JAM
 
I know you would need the TD's to be responsable to check if a player is paid up before letting him/her play...but that could be done by checking their name on a computer. Johnnyt
 
TX Poolnut said:
If Frank Alvarez put pool first, he wouldn't have diluted the brackets in Las Vegas with his name. Instead, invite someone who doesn't go 2 and out everytime he plays in a pro event. It's kinda like Bud Selig insisting that he get to play first base for the Yankees.
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You beat me to the punch, as I was thinking the same thing, as evidenced by my above-referenced post, TX Poolnut!

There is no legitimate men's professional tour in the States, and why the UPA is used as a measuring stick for events like the BCA Open leaves a big question mark in my mind.

JAM
 
Johnnyt said:
Could an organization work with JUST the players paying dues...not the TD's?
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The UPA has players dues now, but its a yearly tour membership. It is a lot more than $5 a month, and its still not enough.

The UPA was set up initially as a not for profit entity. This means that all monies taen in are distributed in prize funds or for operating the business. The prize funds and the tour will be sustained on membership dues and entry fees. The industry has to invest in the pro tours. Businesses from outside our indsutry need to invest in the pro tours also. That is where the money comes from. Until we give them something other than "tournament pool" to market, nobody will invest a dime. Tournament pool has never sold - those that have invested in tournaent pool have lost money on their investment - so it would be a good idea to reinvent the way we market our tour, our comeptitions, and our players. Until that is done, we will continue to be running east and looking for a sunset.
 
JAM said:
You beat me to the punch, as I was thinking the same thing, as evidenced by my above-referenced post, TX Poolnut!

There is no legitimate men's professional tour in the States, and why the UPA is used as a measuring stick for events like the BCA Open leaves a big question mark in my mind.

JAM
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I will leave Frank's playing ability on the side, as it is not the issue at hand.

As far as a legitimate tour, its all we have right now. The IPT had all of KT's money and it was not able to sustain itself. The IPT ran into the same brick wall that TD's and promoters have slammed into for years - limited marketability.

The BCA Open is not the issue. The issue is that the money is not being invested to grow any of the existing tours. There are several tours that have the right idea. The Viking Tour, the Ladies Spirit Tour, the WPBA, and many more.

Marketability has ALWAYS been a factor in growing the game of pool.

FWIW, you may not marvel at Frank's playing ability, but I respect his deidication and his work ethic. We don't agree on all issues, but I believe that Frank has the abilities necessary to competently lead that tour, and he has my support.
 
Blackjack said:
I will leave Frank's playing ability on the side, as it is not the issue at hand.

As far as a legitimate tour, its all we have right now. The IPT had all of KT's money and it was not able to sustain itself. The IPT ran into the same brick wall that TD's and promoters have slammed into for years - limited marketability.

The BCA Open is not the issue. The issue is that the money is not being invested to grow any of the existing tours. There are several tours that have the right idea. The Viking Tour, the Ladies Spirit Tour, the WPBA, and many more.

Marketability has ALWAYS been a factor in growing the game of pool.

FWIW, you may not marvel at Frank's playing ability, but I respect his deidication and his work ethic. We don't agree on all issues, but I believe that Frank has the abilities necessary to competently lead that tour, and he has my support.
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Good point about marketability, and I agree.

I agree that Frank Alvarez has a sweet disposition, is genuinely nice, and is a good man.

Do you think that an existing player, like Frank Alvarez as an example, who competes on today's tournament trail is a better candidate to run a men's professional tour as opposed to somebody like you who has the interest of the sport at heart, but does not currently play pool professionally?

I believe that conflicts of interest could sometimes arise when pool players are put in the position of being at the helm of a so-called men's governing body of professional pool. JMHO, FWIW.

I don't have the answer to the problem, but I do know that Lou Butera, as an example, was singing the same song in the '70s about the problems with professional pool in the States. Nothing has changed.

JAM
 
IMO, if you are at the helm, you should step aside as a player. Too much politics to do both. Look at all of the headaches that Allen put up with when he lead the MPBT. Although it was Mackey's show, Allen was our president and was caught in some tough situations arbitrarily.

The UPA is set up much differently, and I believe that if Frank was to step aside as a player, that the UPA would be in great hands. Myself, I have neither the time, desire, or the organizational skills to take on such a task. Frank has the respect of the players, and that goes a long way IMO.

Is the UPA perfect? Far from it. However, I believe that it can grow if it has the right people involved with its marketing and organization. They won't get anywhere marketing "tournament" pool. I believe the way to go is to sanction some high dollar gambling matches or ring games. The people would get to see pool for what it is - veil removed - and believe me, Keith would be one of the major players in that type of a tour set up, and by far one of the most successful.
 
Blackjack said:
IMO, if you are at the helm, you should step aside as a player. Too much politics to do both. Look at all of the headaches that Allen put up with when he lead the MPBT. Although it was Mackey's show, Allen was our president and was caught in some tough situations arbitrarily.

The UPA is set up much differently, and I believe that if Frank was to step aside as a player, that the UPA would be in great hands. Myself, I have neither the time, desire, or the organizational skills to take on such a task. Frank has the respect of the players, and that goes a long way IMO.

Is the UPA perfect? Far from it. However, I believe that it can grow if it has the right people involved with its marketing and organization. They won't get anywhere marketing "tournament" pool. I believe the way to go is to sanction some high dollar gambling matches or ring games. The people would get to see pool for what it is - veil removed - and believe me, Keith would be one of the major players in that type of a tour set up, and by far one of the most successful.
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I believe that there are differing views about gambling being associated with pool in today's market.

Though it seems to be an attraction, i.e., DCC in Louisville each January, there is quite a different school of thought from the European perspective, as an example, where pool players have a strict training regimen and gambling isn't even a word in most European players' vocabulary.

However, in the Philippines where pool is basically a national sport, much like baseball is here in the States, gambling isn't hidden in back rooms as if it's pool's dirty little secret. Efren Reyes is a national hero, and his legacy aside from being the world's top professional player is one that includes gambling.

I am very excited to see American Shane Van Boening doing well at the BCA Open. He represents the new generation of American pool players. Time will tell how his legacy will develop, but it is very promising.

Players like Danny Basavich, who used to do the on-the-road thing, switched gears to become a tournament soldier, winning several major events. Without a legitimate, active, and transparent pool organization for the men, it is difficult for talented players like Danny Basavich to make pool their profession. In my eyes, he has done everything right, but he ain't competing in the BCA Open. Yet, Frank Alvarez is.

JAM
 
It's not pool's marketability that is the problem. It's the people doing the marketing. I've said it a thousand times. If you can market bowling and poker for TV, a good mind could easily launch pool like a rocket. It just has to be the right format and the right personality.

Too many people trying to push pool players off as tie-wearing stiff-shirted gentelmen. Guys, it just aint the case and people see right through it.

Why would anyone think offering an outrageous prize fund for an unsposored, unsold, event was a good idea(cough.......IPT)? It's kind of like taking off in a plane without enough gas and leaving the parachutes at the airport.
 
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Johnnyt said:
It would seem to me that if the pros REALLY wanted an organization they would have one by now. You have the BCA, APA, and a few others I can’t think of right now. They could pay their dues online or through the mail or other ways. If your dues aren’t paid and you show up for a tournament…you don’t get to play… period.

How much would it cost to run a good organization? $5 a man/woman a month? Everyone keeps saying the hard part would be collecting the money. I say that’s BS if all the tournaments stick together and stand behind the no pay, no play rule…they will pay up. There are tons of people right on AZBilliards that are capable of running it. I just feel that if they had a pro organization just to organize the players to start with…the purses would go up too…in time. Johnnyt
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There have been several organizations. Check out the histories of the PPPA, the PBA/MPBA/PBT/PBTA and the PCA. There was also a player's organization in the 1950's that Mosconi mentions in his biography. It's not clear to me that any organization run by the US male pros can succeed. The track record is not good.

As for how much it costs, it depends on what you want the organization to do. How many full-time employees? What sort of promotion efforts? Should they produce events for TV? Player development? (Hint: by PGA standards, I think fewer than half of the pro men would have tour cards.) I'd figure something approaching $200,000 a year to start to do a good job.
 
I see I was way off on my dues part...but I was trying not to have to ask the promotors or TD's to put up anything. Johnnyt
 
About Organization. You can't tell people what to wear & how to play, unless you get their attention with money. B-Hole did it, without having to try very hard, even when most feared the scam was on.

About marketability. The SGMA says that $234,000,000.00 of Pool & Billiard gear was sold in 2006 (Internationally).

Does any company you know, that advertises nationally, advertise for Pool & Billiards TV programming. NOT very many is the answer.

Maybe a spectator & player campaign, sending a few million "I wanna see Pool & Billiards on my TV", letters to these companies, from which they buy products from, would make a difference. Maybe these companies just don't know what we want. Everyone isn't a football, baseball, basketball, poker or soccer fan. Maybe we could be added to that list?

Maybe the SGMA might be glad to receive all these letters & approach a few companies for National & International Tournament monies.

I think the UPA should have Corporate Tournament Sponsors, Gear & Equipment Business Members, Pool Room Members, Tournament Player Members & Professional Instructor Members. This would be a model like the PGA.

The IPT showed us all, how we can turn a little ol' Pool Tournament into an extravaganza. The IPT showed us all how to bury this sport too....
 
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