Ortmann-Hall of Fame

My idea of the HOF, which, admittedly, might not be the true purpose of the HOF, is to honor those who have had some sort of historical significance in our sport.
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agre completely. which is why parica should be there, and archer. player of the decade is a pretty cool and significant thing to be able to say you were! i see ortmann as the german/european equivalent to parica, which is why he has a strong case. on stats and tournament wins alone he's not worthy you could argue. but the idea behind the hall of fame is more than that surely.
 
JAM said:
I do not agree with everything you state, though there are some points which in my opinion are valid.

To say U.S. domination of pool is a thing of the past is irritating to this reader. When I read of all the European titles which were NATIONALITY-RESTRICTED, meaning no Americans competed in these events, I just cannot for the life of me deem those accomplishments as worthy.

Pool today is quite different in the United States than in times gone by, and championship titles, if used as a ranking system, is a difficult nut to crack. When countries have restricted tours and events, I compare these to America's regional tours, like Joss, Florida Pro, Viking, et cetera. And I don't care of Ralf and Thorsten were competing in these European regional events. The fact is that they excluded Americans from many of them.

So, when one states that a player has 41 titles in a given discipline in Europe, well, to me that's 41 Joss Tour wins. It is not a good comparison.

The U.S. domination in pool is hampered by the international players coming to our soil, competing in the OPEN events, and then they use these wins as well as their own restricted country tournaments as notches on their belts. Sorry, it doesn't fly with me.

I do not desire to engage in any negativity on this thread, but I stand FIRMLY by my opinion and respect the opinions of others even if they differ from mine.

JAM
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Jam, I love you to death but I respectfully disagree. Just because they don't allow US players into their events doesn't mean we should block them from ours. You make a good point about the Joss tour thing, but that also strengthens my point of "who cares." I know I'll get FLAMED when I say this but the U.S. is where the money is and our events are the ones people remember (w/ the exception of a few asian tourneys and a certain said Cardiff tourney :)

It's the same reason why people leave the European pro golf tour to play on the PGA Tour--- it's where the players and $ is at. If someone won a ton in europe... good for them. Win 8 US Opens or 8 of last weeks 14.1's and then brag. Nonetheless, they should still be allowed to play.

By the way, name 3 guys who are fighting and tripping over one and other to play a tourney in scandinavia, germany or anywhere on that side of the pond. Let them come here and play. We can't hate because they play better. Maybe all foreigners should spot all americans the 8?;)
 
SpiderWebComm said:
Jam, I love you to death but I respectfully disagree. Just because they don't allow US players into their events doesn't mean we should block them from ours. You make a good point about the Joss tour thing, but that also strengthens my point of "who cares." I know I'll get FLAMED when I say this but the U.S. is where the money is and our events are the ones people remember (w/ the exception of a few asian tourneys and a certain said Cardiff tourney :)

It's the same reason why people leave the European pro golf tour to play on the PGA Tour--- it's where the players and $ is at. If someone won a ton in europe... good for them. Win 8 US Opens or 8 of last weeks 14.1's and then brag. Nonetheless, they should still be allowed to play.

By the way, name 3 guys who are fighting and tripping over one and other to play a tourney in scandinavia, germany or anywhere on that side of the pond. Let them come here and play. We can't hate because they play better. Maybe all foreigners should spot all americans the 8?;)
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Again, I do not agree with everything that you state and vehemently disagree with some remarks about American players.

Again, I do not think some of the European tournament wins should be used as a measuring stick for a player's accomplishments when some of the European tournament wins were restricted to European players. Some of those European tournaments are no different than a regional tour tournament here in the States. One MAJOR difference, though, is that the regional tours here in the States welcome foreign players, unlike our foreign counterparts.

To say all foreigners should spot the Americans the 8 is offensive to this reader, but you are entitled to your opinion. I just do not agree with you. It is disheartening to read Americans demeaning American pool players' strengths. In fact, it is quite sad.

Next time you're at a pool event, hanging out with Diana and Earl, let Earl know your true feelings and opinions about American pool players.

Not too many American pros post on this forum, but if they did, maybe you would understand how untrue your remarks are to the American professional pool players themselves, as well as offensive.

To think that there are American stakehorses promoting and supporting foreign pool players out of one side of their mouth and bashing American pool players out of the other side of their mouth. How sad that is.

Mama, don't let your babies grow up and be American pool players. The existing lot of American pool players is dwindling, and some of the anti-American opinons expressed on this thread is one of the reasons why. Celebrate the fact that there won't be any more American pool someday. The American pool pie, once barely enough to sustain American pool players, is now down to crumbs. Soon pool will be a thing of the past in America, with all events occurring overseas. Then maybe some of the American posters on this thread will be happy. Mission accomplished. Pool will be all but dead in America, and the American pool player will be extinct. Today, the American professional pool player is an endangered species.

So keep on supporting the foreign players with your words of praise and sucker-punching our American pros. That's a sure-fire way to elevate pool in America. I can't even state that I respect these anti-American opinions anymore. Rather, I respect the fact everyone is entitled to have one; that is, an opinion.

JAM
 
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JAM wrote :
Again, I do not think some of the European tournament wins should be used as a measuring stick for a player's accomplishments when some of the European tournament wins were restricted to European players. Some of those European tournaments are no different than a regional tour tournament here in the States. One MAJOR difference, though, is that the regional tours here in the States welcome foreign players, unlike our foreign counterparts.

Hi,

I d'like to put some precisions about this.

Yes, the European championnships are closed to European residents who are affilliate to an official federation of a european coutry.

But, the biggest tour in Europe (the Eurotour) wich regroupping from 256 to 288 (256 + 32 seeded players) 7 times a year is totally open. Marlon Mananlo played the first event of the year. He finished third. These events are similar than the 9 ball Guiness tour in Asia, but this one is closed to asians players. Johnny Archer comes twice to plays Eurotours in 2000. This tour is not comparable as a regional tournament in US.

Finally, only the European championships are closed to europeans. All the other tournaments are widely opens.

Regards
 
I wonder why it is that more European players compete on American soil than American players compete on European soil. Therein lies the rub.

JAM
 
Us is and stay the pool capital!!! Except the Eurotours, there's not much big tournaments with enough money to attract the non-europeans. US are much attractive to play (US Open, DCC, and many mores).

Also I recognize that the investment for an americn to play an Eurotour is to expansive. He have to finished in the last four to make a benefice (and a small benefice) wich is not easy.
 
billbOK said:
Us is and stay the pool capital!!! Except the Eurotours, there's not much big tournaments with enough money to attract the non-europeans. US are much attractive to play (US Open, DCC, and many mores).

Also I recognize that the investment for an americn to play an Eurotour is to expansive. He have to finished in the last four to make a benefice (and a small benefice) wich is not easy.
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You seem like a very nice chap, and I welcome you to the forum. :)

I have a strong disdain for anti-American sentiments when they are expressed by Americans, Americans who support foreign players and sucker-punch American players, especially when they state American players are not as strong as their counterparts.

NOBODY, even Americans competing on American soil, can make a profit competing in American events unless they come in first, second, or third place. Even when you win a tournament, you owe monies or have to pay expenses from previous tournaments you may have attended.

I like many European pool players and respect their talents. I do not like Americans bashing American pool players, demeaning their capabilities on a field of green. It is offensive to me, and as such, I respond. I respect their right to have an opinion. I just do not agree with them.

I am well aware of how expensive it is for European players to compete on American soil. That is why some foreign players MOVE and LIVE here in the United States, some of them supported by American stakehorses. One European player won $54,000 in an American pool event. After the tournament organizers took out one-third for taxes, the pool player's European backer took out the travel, entry fee, and lodging expenses. Whatever was left, the European backer then split the remaining proceeds with the European pool player. When the dust settled, the European pool player pocketed $12,000. Everybody thought he won so much money -- $54,000 -- and he pocketed $12,000.

Pool is a tough racket. Some European players are sponsored by their country's government to play pool. Filipino players are considered super stars in their country and given strong support. Americans will NEVER enjoy this luxury. In fact, some Americans think American pool players are the scum of the earth and have stated so right here on this forum.

Again, I welcome you to this forum and look forward to reading your contributions. This is one subject matter which strikes a nerve with me, Americans bashing American pool players.

JAM
 
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Thank you for your cordial welcome JAM!
I just wanted to contribue to the post by writting some precision. I understand your sentiments about this matter.
See you soon on the board
 
JAM said:
The U.S. domination in pool is hampered by the international players coming to our soil, competing in the OPEN events, and then they use these wins as well as their own restricted country tournaments as notches on their belts. Sorry, it doesn't fly with me.

I do not desire to engage in any negativity on this thread, but I stand FIRMLY by my opinion and respect the opinions of others even if they differ from mine.

JAM
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Jam, i know where u are coming from with regards to trying to protect American pool players. But i am surprised to read that u think that the way to solve the americans dilema that they no longer dominate, is to limit the field.

I feel that by doing so would compromise the quality of these tainted victories. Besides the players themselves knowing that these events would be contested without a full field, the fans and sponsors would know too. It's pretty simple, if you want to be considered the best, u have to play and beat the best.

Oh, and one more point, eurotour wins are NOT the same as winning regional stops here. Most regional joss events draw 30 or 40 players. Perhaps the euro tour is the equivalent of turning stone or valley forge. I think that puts things in a better perspective.
 
JAM said:
Again, I do not agree with everything that you state and vehemently disagree with some remarks about American players.

Again, I do not think some of the European tournament wins should be used as a measuring stick for a player's accomplishments when some of the European tournament wins were restricted to European players. Some of those European tournaments are no different than a regional tour tournament here in the States. One MAJOR difference, though, is that the regional tours here in the States welcome foreign players, unlike our foreign counterparts.

To say all foreigners should spot the Americans the 8 is offensive to this reader, but you are entitled to your opinion. I just do not agree with you. It is disheartening to read Americans demeaning American pool players' strengths. In fact, it is quite sad.

Next time you're at a pool event, hanging out with Diana and Earl, let Earl know your true feelings and opinions about American pool players.

Not too many American pros post on this forum, but if they did, maybe you would understand how untrue your remarks are to the American professional pool players themselves, as well as offensive.

To think that there are American stakehorses promoting and supporting foreign pool players out of one side of their mouth and bashing American pool players out of the other side of their mouth. How sad that is.

Mama, don't let your babies grow up and be American pool players. The existing lot of American pool players is dwindling, and some of the anti-American opinons expressed on this thread is one of the reasons why. Celebrate the fact that there won't be any more American pool someday. The American pool pie, once barely enough to sustain American pool players, is now down to crumbs. Soon pool will be a thing of the past in America, with all events occurring overseas. Then maybe some of the American posters on this thread will be happy. Mission accomplished. Pool will be all but dead in America, and the American pool player will be extinct. Today, the American professional pool player is an endangered species.

So keep on supporting the foreign players with your words of praise and sucker-punching our American pros. That's a sure-fire way to elevate pool in America. I can't even state that I respect these anti-American opinions anymore. Rather, I respect the fact everyone is entitled to have one; that is, an opinion.

JAM
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I think you misread my post. I wasn't serious about the spot comment, I was just joking-- maybe that didn't come across right?

I was just saying in a joking fashion that limiting fields is basically saying you're scared to death of the foreign players....hence the "8" comment.

I've never sucker-punched American pros, either online directly or indirectly or face-to-face. I'm just saying they're not the best in the world, which is fact. I hate it like you do-- we're singing from the same sheet of music.

No other professional sport limits pro-tour events to nationalities... it just doesn't make sense.

As a matter of fact, even though I don't think the Americans are the best players as a whole, I've only offered to put Americans into action/tourneys. I'm sure there are a number of American pros reading this who will step up and confirm that. I've never offered foreign players support like that. Not because I don't like them, but it'd be like rooting for the away-team. It's all in fun, JAM.

I don't think I wrote anything offending... I was just being facetious (sp?) and I hope others detected that. If American pool players are a dying breed--- it's ALL our fault, not that of foreign players. If Americans won more, we wouldn't be posting these threads would we? The solution is to win more - not cry foul and limit fields/payouts. That's all I was attempting to say.

MUAH! Don't get angry:)

Dave
 
I think you misread my post. I wasn't serious about the spot comment, I was just joking-- maybe that didn't come across right?

I was just saying in a joking fashion that limiting fields is basically saying you're scared to death of the foreign players....hence the "8" comment.

I've never sucker-punched American pros, either online directly or indirectly or face-to-face. I'm just saying they're not the best in the world, which is fact. I hate it like you do-- we're singing from the same sheet of music.

No other professional sport limits pro-tour events to nationalities... it just doesn't make sense.

As a matter of fact, even though I don't think the Americans are the best players as a whole, I've only offered to put Americans into action/tourneys. I'm sure there are a number of American pros reading this who will step up and confirm that. I've never offered foreign players support like that. Not because I don't like them, but it'd be like rooting for the away-team. It's all in fun, JAM.

I don't think I wrote anything offending... I was just being facetious (sp?) and I hope others detected that. If American pool players are a dying breed--- it's ALL our fault, not that of foreign players. If Americans won more, we wouldn't be posting these threads would we? The solution is to win more - not cry foul and limit fields/payouts. That's all I was attempting to say.

MUAH! Don't get angry

Dave
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agree 100% mate. regardless of the fact there are very good reasons for you americans no longer being the dominant force in the game, bottom line is you need start getting your game up back to the top despite the handicaps. or america will fall behind.

but jam, i totally sympathise with your point of view in this case and you are so right. i have the exact same views regarding current affairs and politics here in england. not looking after number one first, helping foreigners more than ourselves etc etc etc. and i and many others always point to america as an example. your country damn well ain't perfect, but it's genuinely patrotic and vocal about it too in all aspects of society. in england nowadays you run the risk of being accused of racialism if you fly the english flag!

anyway it does sadden me about the state of pool in america, because it's the home of the game, and i am a player/fan of the game. therefore i always root for the american in tournaments like the mosconi cup for example. the european players are great, but why should i feel obliged to support a team with germans, italians, fins in it mostly. nothing to do with me! thats why the element of 'supporting your own' always fails for me with the mosconi. also a lot of the the english players from my experience, in fact most of them, aren't pool players at heart, they're english 8 ball and snooker players. which don't get me wrong is fair enough. after all they are the main games over here. i'm just trying to say that america is the spiritual home of pool and i hope it starts to claim back some of it's dominance, for the good of the game, and for the good of the game's home. doing that is going to be extremely difficult however, not to mention we're in an era where players don't 'dominate' as much as they did yesteryear anyway to to a stronger depth of field internationally.
 
worriedbeef said:
agree 100% mate. regardless of the fact there are very good reasons for you americans no longer being the dominant force in the game, bottom line is you need start getting your game up back to the top despite the handicaps. or america will fall behind.

but jam, i totally sympathise with your point of view in this case and you are so right. i have the exact same views regarding current affairs and politics here in england. not looking after number one first, helping foreigners more than ourselves etc etc etc. and i and many others always point to america as an example. your country damn well ain't perfect, but it's genuinely patrotic and vocal about it too in all aspects of society. in england nowadays you run the risk of being accused of racialism if you fly the english flag!

anyway it does sadden me about the state of pool in america, because it's the home of the game, and i am a player/fan of the game. therefore i always root for the american in tournaments like the mosconi cup for example. the european players are great, but why should i feel obliged to support a team with germans, italians, fins in it mostly. nothing to do with me! thats why the element of 'supporting your own' always fails for me with the mosconi. also a lot of the the english players from my experience, in fact most of them, aren't pool players at heart, they're english 8 ball and snooker players. which don't get me wrong is fair enough. after all they are the main games over here. i'm just trying to say that america is the spiritual home of pool and i hope it starts to claim back some of it's dominance, for the good of the game, and for the good of the game's home. doing that is going to be extremely difficult however, not to mention we're in an era where players don't 'dominate' as much as they did yesteryear anyway to to a stronger depth of field internationally.
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I agree. JAM, he said it better than me I think. Americans are crippled as far as sponsorship and culture (even though this is the spiritual home as this gentleman says). Americans can cry or they can grind it out and meet with companies and present plans on sponsorship. Get their air, hotel and food taken care of and agree to split profits. Make it a venture, a win/win. People can cry about the lack of sponsorship but how many companies has "PRO XYZ" visited in the last month? The last year? You probably have a 5% closing ratio for something like that, so unless you're visiting 100 qualified corporations with an excellent presentation, you're not cutting the mustard.

If a pro doesn't know how to make a good presentation, they should seek the help of someone who knows. In addition to that, they should probably have some form of representation. Just as you wouldn't go into court without a lawyer, you should probably not enter a boardroom of execs without an "agent" or "manager" of sorts who delivers an presentation w/ conviction.

There are companies out there who will sponsor a pro athlete just so they can give a player a "logo patch" and expense his/her expenses to reduce tax burden (if they're really profitable). It's all whether or not a guy/gal looks like a yahoo or a businessperson-- and whether someone deems them trust-worthy to carry their "brand" in a professional manner (i.e. not get caught on film drunk, cursing, doing drugs, and other stuff pool players are famous for doing).

If a company isn't profit-rich, a player's presentation to a corporation becomes more of an executive summary - a better than 50/50 way to make a return. Return can mean a lot of things--- either cash made or intrinsic value through marketing exposure. Either way, this probably means you're good enough to finish top 5 and/or be fortunate enough for TV table exposure. To boost your argument, I'm yet to see a tournament with no U.S. players in the top 5 somewhere. I see Cory Deuel on TV a lot. Same with Archer. I used to see Strickland on TV a TON. Hopkins is ALWAYS on tv because he commentates.

The reason I typed all of this is because I'm trying to make a point that American players have the same opportunity to get what some of the foreign players have, although they have to take a different route to get it. It isn't easy work--- and it's more grinding than shooting a drill 1000 times.

I'm guessing 98% of the pros don't devote 25-50% of their work week to identifying corporate opportunities, developing a winning presentation, and closing the deal. Next thing you know, everyone says there's no money in pool and players can't pay to travel to a tournament. Personally, if I was a pro--- that's all I'd do until I locked up my airfare, hotel, and per-diem expenses for my events. Unless that happened, I wouldn't bother.

The fact is, there's a ton of money out there for the right people- if approached properly whether or not you're American, foreign, top 5 in the world or top 50. You have to want it bad enough to get it.

NYC cue dude... I assume you're probably involved in something like what I mention above. Am I off-base or wrong? Anything you can add?

Dave
 
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NYC cue dude said:
Jam, i know where u are coming from with regards to trying to protect American pool players. But i am surprised to read that u think that the way to solve the americans dilema that they no longer dominate, is to limit the field....
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I NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER said to restrict all tournaments on American soil.

I did say that European restrict tournaments on European soil.

If the Europeans do it, then why should not the Americans have SOME -- not all -- SOME tournaments based on nationality, just like the Germans do, where Thorsten, Oliver, and Ralf compete, as an example, and then claim these victories on their portfolio as if they should be deemed as worthy as the U.S. Open.

Jose Parica won world championships when there was never a Matchroom Sports WPC. He won just about every tournament in the world when he was in his prime. To say that his championship wins are not as great as the accomplishments of today's players is not a fair statement. It is like saying Luther Lassiter shouldn't be in the BCA Hall of Fame because he has no WPC title like the European players of today.

I disagree with the opinions expressed that American pool players pale in comparison to their European counterparts. This is my opinion. Others can hold onto their own opinions. I may not agree with them. Of course, when the current governing body of professional pool in the United States restricts events to hand-picked players for events such as the BCA Open, there does not exist a level playing field in the United States for American pool players. It is discriminatory in nature. Some American pool players that should be competing in the BCA Open are not there, and there's only one reason why. The men's professional pool organization is a good old boy's club, the way I see it, not a professional men's pool organization. Some of these hand-picked players that compete in the BCA Open couldn't shoot their way out of a paper bag in a $20-entry-fee local tournament in my area.

It sickens me to read American opinions that have been expressed on this thread. If you want to know what it sinking American pool, it is not the American pool players. It is the Americans who hold opinions that American pool players suck.

JAM
 
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worriedbeef said:
...in england nowadays you run the risk of being accused of racialism if you fly the english flag!...
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Well, that explains a lot about why I was labeled a racist troll by one of your countrymen.

I see avatars demeaning women with exposed and deformed surgically-enhanced breasts looking more like soccer pucks than women's breasts on this forum, and I think these photos are offensive to all womenhood, especially to female readers of this forum. Nobody calls these offenders as women abusers, though.

Thank you for your opinion and comments. They are very illuminating, to say the least.

JAM
 
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SpiderWebComm said:
I think you misread my post. I wasn't serious about the spot comment, I was just joking-- maybe that didn't come across right?

I was just saying in a joking fashion that limiting fields is basically saying you're scared to death of the foreign players....hence the "8" comment.

I've never sucker-punched American pros, either online directly or indirectly or face-to-face. I'm just saying they're not the best in the world, which is fact. I hate it like you do-- we're singing from the same sheet of music.

No other professional sport limits pro-tour events to nationalities... it just doesn't make sense.

As a matter of fact, even though I don't think the Americans are the best players as a whole, I've only offered to put Americans into action/tourneys. I'm sure there are a number of American pros reading this who will step up and confirm that. I've never offered foreign players support like that. Not because I don't like them, but it'd be like rooting for the away-team. It's all in fun, JAM.

I don't think I wrote anything offending... I was just being facetious (sp?) and I hope others detected that. If American pool players are a dying breed--- it's ALL our fault, not that of foreign players. If Americans won more, we wouldn't be posting these threads would we? The solution is to win more - not cry foul and limit fields/payouts. That's all I was attempting to say.

MUAH! Don't get angry:)

Dave
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I apologize for misinterpreting your previous post. I think it is impossible to understand how difficult it is to be a professional pool player in the United States until you have walked the walk. When the WSOP is worried about getting sponsors, you can just imagine how tough it is on a pool player.

The pool industry members sponsor a few players, and all the rest are on their own. Non-pool-related sponsors do not consider pool as a worthy investment. Much of this has to do with image. When pool's own culture cannot agree on what image pool should have, can you see how difficult it is for a non-pool-related sponsor to jump on the band wagon?

Thanks for your thoughts.

JAM
 
JAM said:
I NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER said to restrict alltournaments on American soil.

I did say that European restrict tournaments on European soil.

If the Europeans do it, then why should not the Americans have SOME -- not all -- SOME tournaments based on nationality, just like the Germans do, where Thorsten, Oliver, and Ralf compete in and then claim these victories on their portfolio as if they are as worthy as the U.S. Open.

I disagree with the opinions expressed the American pool players pale in comparison to their European counterparts. This is my opinion. Others can hold onto their own opinions. I may not agree with them.

It sickens me to read American opinions that have been expressed on this thread. If you want to know what it sinking American pool, it is not the American pool players. It is the Americans who hold opinions similar to yours.

JAM
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I don't think anyone said Americans pale in comparison to European or Asian counterparts-- that's an over dramatization. Americans as a whole, Europeans as a whole and Asians as a whole are pretty equal if you consider the top 100 players in each part of the world. No one says American players suck. The only theme I read anywhere is that the BEST players are not American (maybe top 3 to 5 in the world?).

In my opinion, what's sinking American pool is cultural and has nothing to do w/ people here on AZB. As a matter of fact, you can pull 100 random players in bars, pubs, and pool halls and only a fraction will even know what AZ Billiards is--- so people's posts don't even touch the surface of the cause of the problem.

There really isn't an official "career-path" for youth players to turn pro. Nothing that's easy, that's for sure. Pool halls aren't a piece of culture as it was "back in the day." I mentioned in a previous post that China had more pool halls than you can possibly imagine. In Beijing, there were so many pool halls you wouldn't believe me if I told you. It took me 20 minutes to page through the local english phone book just to pick a few I wanted to check out. There isn't one city in the U.S. with 10% of the number of rooms they have.

The reason for the demise of pool in the U.S. is people don't want to play anymore. In Asia and Europe, people are dying to play - the billiard industry in these areas prove it. If 50+ pool halls in one city can make money and be profitable... how BIG do you think the market is there?

My town, York, used to have 5 pool halls when I first started to play 15 years ago. Now, there are zero. I heard from friends across the country the same holds true in other areas. For that reason alone is why the best players are elsewhere... when you have more players, you're STATISTICALLY supposed to have more better players.

Therefore, we have to help our own players compete with a much larger army of players. It's not easy.

Regarding the euro tourneys limiting their fields to nationals-only..... it's RETARDED. It's stupid. So why copy an IDIOT-move here? Let them have their back-yard championship. No reason to create our own stupid back-yard tournament!

For the record... and I mean this from the BOTTOM of my heart.... Keith is one of my favorite all-around pool players in the history of the game--- of any nationality included. I'd rather watch him play anyone than watch Efren any day. What Efren has in ability, he lacks in personality. Keith has the best of both worlds. We spent some time together in Reno during the IPT event. I've never laughed so hard in my entire life just hearing of all the gambling stories (and casino stories). To make matters worse, Scotty Townsend was there instigating the conversation to an even higher level-- so I nearly pissed myself (NO JOKE - I got lucky I didn't).

There isn't 1 foreign player on planet earth capable of making me laugh like that. You'd have to fly in Aliens from Pluto to tell better stories than that, while being able to back it up on the table. Americans have and always will be the heart of the game. Our culture statistically, however, makes it tough for us to be the best anymore.... which is sad.
 
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JAM said:
The pool industry members sponsor a few players, and all the rest are on their own. Non-pool-related sponsors do not consider pool as a worthy investment. Much of this has to do with image. When pool's own culture cannot agree on what image pool should have, can you see how difficult it is for a non-pool-related sponsor to jump on the band wagon?
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Hello Jam,

I agree fully on this part of your statement.

Actually, pool in the US of A is a different thing from pool in germany or other european countries.

In the US, the pool player carries the image of a lonesome gambler, hanging out in places where competition is usually mutual and based on gambling for money.

Meanwhile, the european players try to create a "cleaner" image in an attempt to establish pool as a true sport, meaning that competition is not necessarily about money, but first of all on the individual effort to be the best in your favoured discipline. There is nearly no gambling in local tournaments, and practically no equivalent for a hustler, a backer or a calcutta. While there is a little price money in tournaments, playing in a pool hall with your peers is virtually never for money, and most pool happens in local associations which compete as teams, but do not compete for money. It's a true team sport in organized state-wide and national leagues.

Imho, the key element to corporate sponsorship (and more public coverage) is the creation of a cleaner public perception.

Since a sponsor seeks compensation in direct sales or reputation, it is no miracle that Ralph Souquet is sponsored by Joss: He is one of the true gentlemen of the sport with outstanding manners to accompany his skills as a player. The way he cultivates his public appearance might be an example for all players who seek active sponsorship.

Please, do not take these thoughts as anti-american: European sports offers its weak spots as well, i.e. there have been too many cases of drug abuse (is it called doping in english as well?) in cycle sports during the last years: A large national TV-program has just quit their coverage of the Tour de France this week due to another supposed case of doping by a german cyclist.

The damage to the publicity of the cycle-sport as a whole has been devastating, and the decline of sponsor money in this sport will probably be in the double-digited millions. Corporations do simply not want to invest in any kind of sport which transports no "clean" image.

I am absolutely sure that this rule applies in america as well. However, I do believe that the idea of gambling and hustling has deep and extensive roots in the american pool community, and the way to go would be a long one with a lot of lost participants along the road.

Well, what do I want to achive with this rambling? Probably nothing - I do actually expect to get a lot of heat for these thoughts, they might seem arrogant to some readers, although they're not meant to be :-)

Regards,

Detlev
 
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SpiderWebComm said:
Regarding the euro tourneys limiting their fields to nationals-only..... it's RETARDED. It's stupid. So why copy an IDIOT-move here? Let them have their back-yard championship. No reason to create our own stupid back-yard tournament!
Click to expand...

First of all, the only tournaments in Europe that is limited is the National Championships and the European Championships. They are arranged once 1 year. Nothing different from for example football (soccer), which have Copa America, African Cup and European Championships.

Would it be wrong for America to have a yearly Copa America for pool? One week with competion, only for American players, battling it out in 8-ball, 9-ball and 14-1. Who's the best player in each dicipline?

I think there would be tons of American players competing in those events. Imagine how cool to tell your friends that you are playing the American Championships, and that the winner gets a spot in the World Championship!! I believe it would be easier to get both sponsors and press for an event like this, but if all of you americans thinks it is a retarded system, please do so :)

By the way, the European Championships are organized with NO PRICEMONEY. The winner gets zero, except invitations to other tournaments.

Still all the best players in Europe compete, year after year. Guess that shows how much heart the Europeans have, and how prestigous those titles really are!? (Or maybe it's true, poolplayers are really dumb)
 
Detlev Rackow said:
Hello Jam,

I agree fully on this part of your statement.

Actually, pool in the US of A is a different thing from pool in germany or other european countries.

In the US, the pool player carries the image of a lonesome gambler, hanging out in places where competition is usually mutual and based on gambling for money.

Meanwhile, the european players try to create a "cleaner" image in an attempt to establish pool as a true sport, meaning that competition is not necessarily about money, but first of all on the individual effort to be the best in your favoured discipline. There is nearly no gambling in local tournaments, and practically no equivalent for a hustler, a backer or a calcutta. While there is a little price money in tournaments, playing in a pool hall with your peers is virtually never for money, and most pool happens in local associations which compete as teams, but do not compete for money. It's a true team sport in organized state-wide and national leagues.

Imho, the key element to corporate sponsorship (and more public coverage) is the creation of a cleaner public perception.

Since a sponsor seeks compensation in direct sales or reputation, it is no miracle that Ralph Souquet is sponsored by Joss: He is one of the true gentlemen of the sport with outstanding manners to accompany his skills as a player. The way he cultivates his public appearance might be an example for all players who seek active sponsorship.

Please, do not take these thoughts as anti-american: European sports offers its weak spots as well, i.e. there have been too many cases of drug abuse (is it called doping in english as well?) in cycle sports during the last years: A large national TV-program has just quit their coverage of the Tour de France this week due to another supposed case of doping by a german cyclist.

The damage to the publicity of the cycle-sport as a whole has been devastating, and the decline of sponsor money in this sport will probably be in the double-digited millions. Corporations do simply not want to invest in any kind of sport which transports no "clean" image.

I am absolutely sure that this rule applies in america as well. However, I do believe that the idea of gambling and hustling has deep and extensive roots in the american pool community, and the way to go would be a long one with a lot of lost participants along the road.

Well, what do I want to achive with this rambling? Probably nothing - I do actually expect to get a lot of heat for these thoughts, they might seem arrogant to some readers, although they're not meant to be :-)

Regards,

Detlev
Click to expand...

Very well-written post, Detlev, and I enjoyed reading your thoughts and insights into German pool.

I'm not so sure that the squeaky-clean image of this kind of pool player would be one which could be accepted by the non-purists of pool in America.

Though there definitely are some who would rather watch pool in a church-like setting, men wearing suits, players never uttering one comment, looking like Buckingham Guards with no emotion on their faces while they are seated in their designated corners, there is another school of thought here in America where people do enjoy seeing a little emotion in the game of pool. These pool folk want to hear the whoofing and barkfests and witness the games of stake for as high as the players can stack it. The Derby City Classic in Louisville, Kentucky, which takes place each January is a good example of the latter.

Poker, as evidenced by the WSOP, is taking off in America like wildfire. However, interestingly, it is more popular in your country, Germany. The corporate sponsors are flocking to get their name on these televised gambling games such as Texas Hold'em.

I appreciate your contribution to this thread. It is nice to hear from our brethren overseas. :)

JAM
 
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