OTLB vs AZB forum mechanics

OTLB said:
I don't consider a table that can't be moved into where normal pool tables can go to be the best. Even if you can roll it somewhere what happens when the customer wants to sell it? The new customer also has to have easy access. This limits the item.
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There isn't a Diamond table built today that can't be installed any where any other table can be installed, you just need to know what you're doing as a mechanic, and if that knowledge leaves someone out as a mechanic, oh well, that's the way it goes....not every mechanic knows how to work on a Ferrari, so you find a mechanic that does!!! As far as a commercial table goes, the only table I consider built today to be of commercial grade, is a Diamond ProAm!

Glen

PS. Keep in mind OTLB, the ProAms CAN be installed with a 3 piece slate, no differrent than ANY other table!
 
Ok now were back to a 3 piece slate table and not one piece. So the one piece table isn't the best then if it only works in certain places and has issues when you go sell it. Yes they can be installed quickly for tournaments and thats great. Taking apart a frame that is screwed together is really not a big deal either like on an Olhausen... Didn't someone say in here that working on GC's was so much easier than working on Diamonds. Shouldn't the best table be easy to work on? I am sure any great mechanic can work on just about any great car. I am not talking about cars.

What I said was: If someone told you to design a new table, what would it be and it can't look like a GC. I don't know of any mechanics that think working on a Diamond is easier than a GC. I also don't think that a frame that has to have adjusters in it to make the table level is a good thing. Isn't sort of like saying; since our frames are not flat we needed to put these things in here so you could level it. Why even have adjustable feet? I really don't want the table I am working to float on a bunch of points. Please don't twist what I am saying. Now, Glen you mentioned something the other day that was important to this about the slates being matched at the factory. I would think the best table would have each set of slate honed to the bed of the table before being sent out. Shipped out on end and not flat on a pallet. Now you receive the slate and place it on a flat frame that has been leveled and everything is perfect, sort of like on a billiard table, isn't that what you said. Should the slate have dowels in it? If quality is designed into the product anyone could set up the table. Why should it be the other way around. Think about it, lets talk about cars, well sir your car runs to the left but you can bring it into our shop and we will fix it for you, we have the best mechanic in the world.. Then you say its a brand new Ferrari why the hell is there something wrong with it.

There are alot of people in here who I am confident can think of ways to make things different and perhaps better. Diamond is a great table and they keep making it better right? Are you telling me they are done and aren't going to continue to make improvements?

So again, all I was asking was? if you could build the best table what would it be? and I said I didn't want it to look like a GC because if you build something that looks like something else it will always be compared to it.

example= our cloth looks and plays like Simonis

Since I haven't seen the Proam tables I assume the slate can be adjusted up and down and not only in the up direction. You can pull a crown down with those adjusters right? Also curious what size pockets they have?
 
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OTLB said:
Ok now were back to a 3 piece slate table and not one piece. So the one piece table isn't the best then if it only works in certain places and has issues when you go sell it. Yes they can be installed quickly for tournaments and thats great. Taking apart a frame that is screwed together is really not a big deal either like on an Olhausen... Didn't someone say in here that working on GC's was so much easier than working on Diamonds. Shouldn't the best table be easy to work on? I am sure any great mechanic can work on just about any great car. I am not talking about cars.

What I said was: If someone told you to design a new table, what would it be and it can't look like a GC. I don't know of any mechanics that think working on a Diamond is easier than a GC. I also don't think that a frame that has to have adjusters in it to make the table level is a good thing. Isn't sort of like saying; since our frames are not flat we needed to put these things in here so you could level it. Why even have adjustable feet? I really don't want the table I am working to float on a bunch of points. Please don't twist what I am saying. Now, Glen you mentioned something the other day that was important to this about the slates being matched at the factory. I would think the best table would have each set of slate honed to the bed of the table before being sent out. Shipped out on end and not flat on a pallet. Now you receive the slate and place it on a flat frame that has been leveled and everything is perfect, sort of like on a billiard table, isn't that what you said. Should the slate have dowels in it? If quality is designed into the product anyone could set up the table. Why should it be the other way around. Think about it, lets talk about cars, well sir your car runs to the left but you can bring it into our shop and we will fix it for you, we have the best mechanic in the world.. Then you say its a brand new Ferrari why the hell is there something wrong with it.

There are alot of people in here who I am confident can think of ways to make things different and perhaps better. Diamond is a great table and they keep making it better right? Are you telling me they are done and aren't going to continue to make improvements?

So again, all I was asking was? if you could build the best table what would it be? and I said I didn't want it to look like a GC because if you build something that looks like something else it will always be compared to it.

example= our cloth looks and plays like Simonis

Since I haven't seen the Proam tables I assume the slate can be adjusted up and down and not only in the up direction. You can pull a crown down with those adjusters right? Also curious what size pockets they have?
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First off, you don't need adjustable leg levelers if the floor the table is going to be sitting on is dead perfectly flat...what's the chances of that??? Secondly, no matter how flat the frame of a table is, when you add weight...it changes, therefore you "need" to be able to adjust to compensate...right? Next, the added cost to machine match slates to set frames is not cheap, do you really think the public is willing to pay for that extra cost, when it's really not necessary? You refer to GC's as being so easy to work on when compared to Diamond, well you're right...but explain something to me if you would. You say it's not a big deal to work on a table...like it's "easy"...if that be the case, why then is there so MANY screwed up GC's on the market?

When leveling slates, you don't adjust DOWN the slates, you raise the lows to match the highs. The ONLY time you have to adjust DOWN, is if the slates are CROWNED, in which case there is a way to fix that, if you know what you're doing as a mechanic, but even still...all this talk means nothing to me, as I live in a world that builds the tables that are here and now, not some table in the future that someone feels they can design to be "Perfect"...no matter, I guarantee no matter how perfect a table is...it's only as good as the mechanic that worked on it LAST!

I delivered to 7ft Diamond smart tables to a location in TN, after setting both tables down from the dolly's then getting ready to level them, one table was so perfectly level...I didn't have to do a thing to it, the other table I had to level the legs to match the floor.

So, the table I didn't have to level at all....was it a perfectly built table?...or did I just get lucky?:rolleyes:

Glen
 
My question was? a table designed for professionals. I do think a professional will pay the extra money and there are alot of others that would also. Do you know whow much the slate manufaturers would charge to hone the slate? How much would it really cost? For example there is a gentleman in this forum that purchased custom made 1.5 inch slate from me with dowels etc for his GC and the cost didn't matter to him. I should add that it was not that much either. I think that is why they make Ferraris isn't it. Frames will change and so the first thing there must be is a middle support. I would like the table to look like it is something new and different...... There is a market and need for a table that can be set up quickly for tournaments but I would envision this table being the one the finals are played on. If the table was going to have frame adjustments I think they might be better if they were above the base and between the frame and base. If the slate needed adjustments I would want adjusters that went up and down, especially if it was one piece. So again all I am saying is what if? If you think the Diamond is already the best and there is nothing else to be done thats fine. I would like to hear more from other people as well. I know that there is a better mouse trap out there because they keep thinking about one.

So lets ALL make a table and see what it looks like. I will bet money that I can make the Proam better with two improvements right away and NOONE could argue them but I don't want to create the table by myself because I know there are ALOT of guys in here who have ideas also.

If everyone thinks about what sucks on a table and what they don't like about working on a table then the list is created.

I actually resent the title of this thread as I came into this forum with merely an idea that was twisted from the start. I felt I had to support what I said. Then I had to start showing pictures. Next I will have to do it in person. Well that will be on my website. Now I am done in this thread(I hope) and starting a new one. There are alot of guys who PM me and say they like what I am saying but don't feel comfortable sumitting ideas because they get ridiculed. I hope they contribute to my next thread.
 
This Thread

OTLB said:
I actually resent the title of this thread
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John,

Sorry about that. I started this thread just to simply point out that the pounding on each other here in this forum was to a large degree unproductive as it made many people just not want to step into the fight.

I have received a few PMs from people thanking me for posting this view. The thread certainly has gotten a good number of views and responses perhaps there has been some healing.:rolleyes:
 
Interesting about posts in general

This thread took me ten minutes to write and has already had more than 2700 views and 104 responses.

Diary of an Antique Brunswick has taken me hours and hours to keep posting to and has only seen 3072 views and 42 responses in nearly 8 months of time.

I think it is safe to say people are more interested in drama than anything that might be productive. This is the first forum that I have ever really spent much time so I wonder if other forums are likewise.
 
OTLB said:
... I actually resent the title of this thread as I came into this forum with merely an idea that was twisted from the start. I felt I had to support what I said. Then I had to start showing pictures. ...
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It's probably safe to say that when someone talks about work or a process that is somewhat contrary to what everyone else is doing
they're probably going to call you on it.

Being new to the forum and not providing any evidence (photos) of your work when describing something out of the ordinary typically
doesn't sit well with guys here that are in this line of work and have been posting for some time. You get the mix of personalities here
from shy to arrogant but most everyone seems to get along ok. Just my 2 cents.
 
Sometimes in an effort to improve and NOT do things the way everyone else has or follow what someone else says you must experiment. Taking care of my customers is very important to me. I explain to them what I am doing (when I experiment)and if there are any problems I will correct them. My new method of seamless slate joints is now perfected. Pictured is the tool I use. With this tool you can take down high spots and prevent slate walk.
 

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OTLB said:
Sometimes in an effort to improve and NOT do things the way everyone else has or follow what someone else says you must experiment. Taking care of my customers is very important to me. I explain to them what I am doing (when I experiment)and if there are any problems I will correct them. My new method of seamless slate joints is now perfected. Pictured is the tool I use. With this tool you can take down high spots and prevent slate walk.
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Strangely enough, just from looking at the picture, it makes sense....
 
OTLB said:
Sometimes in an effort to improve and NOT do things the way everyone else has or follow what someone else says you must experiment. Taking care of my customers is very important to me. I explain to them what I am doing (when I experiment)and if there are any problems I will correct them. My new method of seamless slate joints is now perfected. Pictured is the tool I use. With this tool you can take down high spots and prevent slate walk.
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ummmhmmm....suction cups and screw style pressure points, I don't believe you can actually apply as much downward pressure on the slates to lower high points at the seams, as opposed to using it to rather lift the lower slate to match the higher slate seam, as it would require an outside force of effort to lower down a high seam, as compared to being attached to the slate at the high point, then trying to lower it down by using the lower side of the seam for leverage;)

Glen
 
tools

A friend of mine is a granite installer and has something similar to this, but it is suction cups with compressde air.I do not know all the details, but it does level out the seems well. You still have to add filler.
Ron
 
LCCS said:
A friend of mine is a granite installer and has something similar to this, but it is suction cups with compressde air.I do not know all the details, but it does level out the seems well. You still have to add filler.
Ron
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I've seen it before also, and it uses the higher, or thicker granite as a shelf base to raise up the lower or thiner granite to the surface level of the higher/thicker surface, but under no conditions can it use the lower level as a point of leverage to lower down the higher side...without raising the lower side as a result of being the lower side. On some granite counter tops you can't get under the lower side of a seam to raise it flush with the higher side, so you need suction cups to grip the granite, and a way of lifting it up level with the higher seam...turn style screws, a crane effect so to speak to lift the lower side.

On a pool table...for most mechanics, they'd just pound in a shim on the low side of the seam and be done.

Glen
 
It works great. It doesn't raise slate only puts downward force to take down high spots on either side you prefer.. It also draws them together and holds them to prevent slate walk.. Oh yes the suction cups work off compressed air also. Once you have the seams together and perfect you can use glue to hold them and they will be perfect. If the slate edges are good you don't need filler as the ball doesn't know the difference. You most certainly can push down a high spot.

As a side note they also have these with handles which you could use on slate to move it. A third man in the middle with one of these would make easy work of many jobs..

There are many trades that share similarities with billiards.

Most mechanics can use a shim if they want but I am not one of them.
 
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More work

OTLB,Do you have a picture of it, where the air hooks in? I do not see that. It seems like more work and another thing to carry around.By the time you get it set up, i could have already put a shim in it and be done. I thought you said you did not use glue? Have you changed your mind?
Ron
 
I used to use one when I was in the glass business they work hold alot of wieght, cups get cut easy so you have to be carefull and protect them. You still have to shim or the slates will still bow over time heavy things still need support over time gravity is the other killer to keeping the slates level.

I still think it has merit in some jobs thanks for posting pic.

Craig
 
Hello Ron,

My version comes with or without the hoses. Your right about carrying extra stuff and setup, these set up in 5 seconds just by pushing the button so I elected not to go the automatic route. Plus as you are aware less to take with you.. Like them because they prevent slate walk and can take down a high spot. You do need some type of shim stock for table gaps but I DO NOT use shims for this purpose but I use flat stock as it doesn't make sense to me to use a wedge. Flat stock can't move.

When I said you can use glue I was referring to other mechanics, I don't like it and my preference not to use. Its worth noting though that I have my own way of bonding slate to prevent slate pop. As I said sometimes I experiment with tables and whenever you experiment sometimes you encounter small problems. Have corrected my method and not worried about slate pop.


At times I also use mechanical shims\adjusters.

Hope everyone in here has a safe and Happy Thanksgiving! Cheers
 
OTLB said:
Hello Ron,

My version comes with or without the hoses. Your right about carrying extra stuff and setup, these set up in 5 seconds just by pushing the button so I elected not to go the automatic route. Plus as you are aware less to take with you.. Like them because they prevent slate walk and can take down a high spot. You do need some type of shim stock for table gaps but I DO NOT use shims for this purpose but I use flat stock as it doesn't make sense to me to use a wedge. Flat stock can't move.

When I said you can use glue I was referring to other mechanics, I don't like it and my preference not to use. Its worth noting though that I have my own way of bonding slate to prevent slate pop. As I said sometimes I experiment with tables and whenever you experiment sometimes you encounter small problems. Have corrected my method and not worried about slate pop.


At times I also use mechanical shims\adjusters.

Hope everyone in here has a safe and Happy Thanksgiving! Cheers
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I know who you are. You are felix the cat, and you have a magical bag of tricks!
 

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The granite industry also has products for bonding seams which are interesting as they keep them from popping and act as bondo. Just to let all you guys know something, they DONT use super glue. This is why they have designed a tool to bring the pieces as close together as possible etc. They don't get to cover their seams with cloth either.

I really believe when we look outside our own world in the U.S. or in another country we will find many ways to improve. Didn't you guys like the video of the little kid whipping out snooker rails. I told you that if the seams are good you don't need anything in the joints and this was in the video. Its done all the time.

What would happen if you went to an upholsterer and asked them to cut in a pocket. They might show you a cool way to do it that you have never seen. Antique tables have a great way of dressing up pockets with leather. Something I don't understand about glueing is that everyone says it is so great but you still staple the pockets. For over 100 years guys have been doing tables with tacks and staples. Maybe the next move will be to put feather strips on the sides of the slate, I like to think different, its fun.

Whats not fun is to be made fun of.

Now I would like to ask the experts in here again what they think of a JAFCO pool table. If you may have worked on one and what you think of their design. To those who haven't, Their slates have levelers which are mechanical adjusters in beams that move slate up or down. They also have the flatest pocket design with more hand behind corner pockets than any table. As a poolplayer you would love the fact that there isn't a lip in front of you when the cueball is in the corner. They use over over size slate. They also have a silent ball return system.
 
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