Outrageous Ruling at Hard Times TADCUP
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F yeah...:smile-us-down:
hey JoeyA...
i don't agree...
if "A" thought he was a 'B' he should have made that claim at the start of handicapping
he can not thereafter - complain - PERIOD
and it is not "B" players responsibility to know his opponents ability - it is the responsibility of the TD imho or, the owner or the promotor, but for sure not a player who trusts in the handicap as outlined by others
if i am wrong, let me know but that is the way i feel it should work
all the best,
smokey
i don't agree...
if "A" thought he was a 'B' he should have made that claim at the start of handicapping
he can not thereafter - complain - PERIOD
and it is not "B" players responsibility to know his opponents ability - it is the responsibility of the TD imho or, the owner or the promotor, but for sure not a player who trusts in the handicap as outlined by others
if i am wrong, let me know but that is the way i feel it should work
all the best,
smokey
History proves this to be wrong. There was not a week that went by in the early 90s my own smaller local room had 64 players for the small local tournaments (playing even) turning people away, and this was the same in all the areas I visited during this time. It was a greater interest in learning the game, having fun etc... Not about what a pool tournament can give you. There were no handicaps back then, in any of the events I played in. It has more to do with the popularity and having a deep interest in the game. And maybe people just have less disposable income now, but even so, handicapping a tournament is not the solution to filling a tournament up.
I do not see to many handicapped events across this country filling up with players, do you?
Some of the most successful events are handicapped. Just depends on your point of view. BCAPL, VNEA, ACS, APA and TAP are all handicapped. Players are divided up according to their ability. At least as best as can be determined by the sanctioning body. BCAPL has Leisure, Open, Advanced, Master and Grand Master. Is there a difference between that and 6, 7, 8, 9 & 10? Or 9/8, 9/7 etc. The events that don't fill are usually OPEN events where every one plays even. Only the top professionals benefit from that format. As far as filling events, BCAPL had nearly 2000 players in the 8 ball singles events. Thanks in part to the handicapping.
Lyn
You make a very nice point Smokey however, tournament directors and promoters make mistakes just like all of us. If I feel someone's handicap is not right, I will question it BEFORE the match.
In competing, I have learned the handicaps of the other players and if their handicapping is changed by the tournament director or promoter, I would notice it (well, most of the time :grin
We both agree that dealing with the issue should happen before the match is played, not after. :smile:
Hope you are well my friend.
JoeyA
Unfortunately, for the better players, who have earned their winning ways, the handicap tournaments DO seem to be doing better than non-handicapped tournaments, at least in my part of the country.
There are exceptions to that rule, like the BIG CALCUTTA weekend tournament in Lafayette, LA which regularly fills the field with 128 players, racing to 7 on bar tables. That event is coming up soon. I think It is October 26 & 27th. It is popular beyond belief. I think www.poolactiontv.com has had something to do with the increasing popularity of the event but it's really the Calcutta that is so huge that keeps people coming back year after year.
In reading the forums, it sure seems that the handicapped tournaments, especially weekly, monthly and regional are doing very well around the country.
The national tournaments still draw a crowd without handicaps, except for the seeding of some of the players which goes on in some events but you can't exclude the purported shady backroom player drawings that are supposed to be occurring here and there.
It sure seems that when there is a handicapped tournament taking place, a lot of the lesser players suddenly have more disposable income.
JoeyA
It sure seems that when there is a handicapped tournament taking place, a lot of the lesser players suddenly have more disposable income.
Joey,
If you held a calcutta at a Joss 9 Ball Tour event and Dennis Hatch and others of his speed attended, there is no way I would waste $100 or so dollars buying myself. Based strictly upon past history. If the event was handicapped (other than entry fees) I MIGHT think about it. Eliminate players of that caliber and the situation changes completely. Just being honest.
I look at each event as an investment of my disposable funds. If I have no chance of recouping that investment, I'm not playing. Or not buying myself or even a part. My best guess is there is a significant majority of players who feel as I do. Call me a wimp or what ever, I call it money management.
Lyn
If you're only interested in money and money management, you're in the wrong sport. Higher priorities should be fun, enjoyment, self-discipline and betterment.
The first year, the winner was not a sandbagger.
In my mind there a huge difference between being a sandbagger and being accused of being one (which is what I wrote).
Kevin
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All nice thoughts. I'm going to be 69 this year. How old are you?
To me, fun is being competitive. Getting steamrollered by much better players event after event isn't fun or enjoyable! I've been there, done that. I'm on a fixed income (OK, lets hear the jokes). Money management is a top priority. I am disciplined. Just not the way you wish me to be. Betterment? How much better can I be at my age. Although I played poorly against some great competition at the BCAPL's last month, 2013 has been a very rewarding year for me in total. Guess I've already admitted to myself I won't ever be a world champion. And it's OK with me!
Lyn
I've been following this thread with a lot of interest.
I ran a lot of tournaments in the 80s and 90s....many were handicapped.
I was waiting for one of the principals to chime in.....
...but I guess they got nothing to say.
To me, there are four people that made a major error here...
...and I'm not excusing the rest of the field for allowing it.
Player B should NOT have played the rematch.
The promoter should NOT have intervened.
The tournament director was out of line....if I was over-ruled by the promoter in this spot, I'm turning in the bookwork and the money
and I'm leaving.
Player A doesn't deserve to have his entry accepted.
In case I don't have everybody at Hard Times mad at me yet....
....last time I played there, they were cleaning their tables with a
damp towel, Guido had to change my tip after, it was like playing in mud.
...and I HATE call-shot ten-ball...now I fear for my life.
I ran a lot of tournaments in the 80s and 90s....many were handicapped.
I was waiting for one of the principals to chime in.....
...but I guess they got nothing to say.
To me, there are four people that made a major error here...
...and I'm not excusing the rest of the field for allowing it.
Player B should NOT have played the rematch.
The promoter should NOT have intervened.
The tournament director was out of line....if I was over-ruled by the promoter in this spot, I'm turning in the bookwork and the money
and I'm leaving.
Player A doesn't deserve to have his entry accepted.
In case I don't have everybody at Hard Times mad at me yet....
....last time I played there, they were cleaning their tables with a
damp towel, Guido had to change my tip after, it was like playing in mud.
...and I HATE call-shot ten-ball...now I fear for my life.
Lyn
You ARE one World Championship path. Its just that at your age, you might fall off the path before you get there (might not also).
Kevin
A similar situation happened to me about 17 years ago in the bay area....I haven't played tournaments ever since. A road player from Washington (Dr. Cues) came down to San Francisco and the tournament director gave him a LOW rating where I had to spot him 3 games in a race to 5. I complained about his rating prior to the match that this kid could spot me the 8 ball, but to response from the TD. I REALLY got lucky on this kid (two 9 ball breaks and 1 run out) to beat this kid, but the TD said he made a mistake and that the kid should play someone our match. Unfortunately he won that match and then beat me 5-0 and eventually won that tournament. I haven't played his tournaments ever since. In all honestly...don't miss playing tournaments anyways. Too many bad stories of of TD's running away with the money....also doesn't make sense to play a $20 tournament for 5+ hours to make $200 for first place. Play poker...you get better odds and less headaches.
That is really horrible, and I can see why that would draw you away from the tournaments. However, in this case it wasn't the TD's fault. He did his best to keep things fair.
Also, most amateurs I know would love to win cash in the events, but they don't do it to win money. If your argument is "don't pay $20 to win $200 in 5 hours", then there are even better things to do than poker. It's like saying "why go fishing for 12 hours and catch 3 fish when you could go into work for 8 hours and make $200?"
Couple of things.
1. There is only one player in a pool tournament that is happy. The winner.
Most everyone else is crying telling their bad roll/he got lucky/sob story to anyone who can listen.
2. Unless you are a player who frequents a room, handicaps are not the easiest things to gauge, do to a multitude of reasons. And even if you do have their speed right, someone always gets their undies in a wad about it, cause they lost.
This is why everyone has to be firm once things get rolling.
If you are the type of person who has no spine, and likes to try and make everyone happy, you will eventually alienate everyone.
I've seen this scenario unfold DOZENS of times.
I've even watched as local draws were RIGGED where a new guy with a questionable speed, would get matched up first round with a strong regular player who was giving out a huge spot, only to have the strong player get slaughtered, so that the TD could ask, "how do you think that guy plays?"
Where the TD would look like a deer in the headlights when asked," you mean you don't know?" (Yes, that tournament eventually died)
With that in mind.
Get a bunch of tube socks, stick a pool ball in each one, gather up player A and the event promoter, and play some piñata!
1. There is only one player in a pool tournament that is happy. The winner.
Most everyone else is crying telling their bad roll/he got lucky/sob story to anyone who can listen.
2. Unless you are a player who frequents a room, handicaps are not the easiest things to gauge, do to a multitude of reasons. And even if you do have their speed right, someone always gets their undies in a wad about it, cause they lost.
This is why everyone has to be firm once things get rolling.
If you are the type of person who has no spine, and likes to try and make everyone happy, you will eventually alienate everyone.
I've seen this scenario unfold DOZENS of times.
I've even watched as local draws were RIGGED where a new guy with a questionable speed, would get matched up first round with a strong regular player who was giving out a huge spot, only to have the strong player get slaughtered, so that the TD could ask, "how do you think that guy plays?"
Where the TD would look like a deer in the headlights when asked," you mean you don't know?" (Yes, that tournament eventually died)
With that in mind.
Get a bunch of tube socks, stick a pool ball in each one, gather up player A and the event promoter, and play some piñata!
