Outside english or center ball?

[sfleinen]

You still haven't specified if the CB should be rolling or stunned (no roll) on impact with the OB. Because there is no clarification, I'm assuming you think it doesn't matter if the CB is hit with natural roll or stun (as long as the shot is hit on the CB's vertical axis).

I'm guessing you're a somewhat advanced player (if you label yourself a 14.1 addict). If that's the case, I can pretty much guarantee that don't stun the CB with center ball on the (vast) majority of your cut shots. Either you hit the CB with natural roll, or if you do stun the CB you're applying a dose of outside english (and you probably are not even aware of it).

I guess my point is that there actually is (or should be) a wrong answer to the question. And that answer is shooting the CB with center ball STUN.

jsp:

If you have to ask, I'm an Open-level player and 100+ ball runner. No, I am completely aware of any spin I put on the cue ball, and I don't use "helper" english if I don't need it. Didn't you read the part where I say that I've seen too many people overspin this shot, into the unprofessional side of the pocket and sell-out to his/her opponent? I've personally done that in the past. And I see others do this all day long.

If you must know, I'd most likely hit this shot center ball (cue ball vertical axis-wise), with a touch of draw, and I'd hit it firm (i.e. draw takes effect after contact, to keep the cue ball away from that upper righthand corner pocket in the WEI table diagram).

I really do think you're making this shot W-A-Y too analytical. To address your question head-on: does center stun make a difference, and is it something you'd want to avoid? Yes. Like the good doctor says, "don't do that."

Satisfied?
-Sean

 

[jsp]

To address your question head-on: does center stun make a difference, and is it something you'd want to avoid? Yes. Like the good doctor says, "don't do that."

Satisfied?

Yes, I am. I realize now that you're talking specifically talking about the diagrammed shot in the OP and not all cut shots in general. Sorry, I haven't been paying close enough attention.

But I'm still quite surprised that you would hit center ball stun on the diagrammed shot with absolutely zero outside. Maybe because you're a 14.1 player and are used to playing with immaculately polished balls? All I know is that with my rather dirty set of balls on my home table, there is no way I'm stunning a the CB with zero sidespin on any cut shot. The variance in the amount of throw with a stunned CB would be greater than the combined variances in squirt, swerve, and throw with a CB hit with outside. If I'm hitting purely center ball on a cut shot, then I'm making sure it achieves natural roll on impact with the OB.

 

[Williebetmore]

Any idiot can see it from the measles on the ball, or just looking at the angle the ball comes off the rail.

-Andrew

A-man,
I'm going to have to disagree (unless your idiot is a LOT smarter than average). How does this idiot differentiate the outside English that the cue ball naturally picks up from the object ball (contact induced sidespin) from purposeful sidespin applied???

Also how does the idiot read the mind of the pro to know that "position doesn't matter" as proposed in this thread?

Your idiot is WAY smarter than me (...damnit again...my wife is right again....).

I also believe that most top pros know exactly whether they are putting any sidespin on the cue ball (at least within 1 mm of their intended target). Low level pro, I'm not sure of.

P.S. - you guys are really again ignoring the Breedlove rule for solving these issues for yourself. Shoot 50 of these balls with center ball (best effort please), then shoot 50 balls with 1 tip outside, then shoot 50 with 2 tips outside, then shoot 50 with 1 tip inside, then shoot 50 with 2 tips inside. Any player that makes more with English than with center ball has a SERIOUS stroke problem and is unlikely to be a top pro. JMO.

P.P.S. - I've ignored the draw/follow/stun part. I think that stun maximizes the contact induced throw, so I would be above or below center if I were potting this for my life.

 

[jsp]

Every pro (except one - Grady) has told me to use no sidespin - it just makes your pocketing less accurate since you introduce squirt, curve, and throw into the equation (while there is contact induced throw for all such shots, the "helping" English may or may not help depending on the speed, amount of English, and amount of cut). The upshot of "helping" English on such routine shots is: LITTLE IF ANY POSITIVES; LOTS OF NEGATIVES. Stray from the vertical axis at your own peril..

It has also been "documented" numerous times in this forum that both Strickland and Sigel advocate using outside english on cut shots. Willie, why do you think Mike, Earl, and Grady have the opposite opinion? Do you think they're "wrong" for suggesting so?

 

[sfleinen]

Yes, I am. I realize now that you're talking specifically talking about the diagrammed shot in the OP and not all cut shots in general. Sorry, I haven't been paying close enough attention.

But I'm still quite surprised that you would hit center ball stun on the diagrammed shot with absolutely zero outside. Maybe because you're a 14.1 player and are used to playing with immaculately polished balls? All I know is that with my rather dirty set of balls on my home table, there is no way I'm stunning a the CB with zero sidespin on any cut shot. The variance in the amount of throw with a stunned CB would be greater than the combined variances in squirt, swerve, and throw with a CB hit with outside. If I'm hitting purely center ball on a cut shot, then I'm making sure it achieves natural roll on impact with the OB.

jsp:

The reason why I'd hit *THIS* particular shot the way I described is for one simple reason: it's the game-/rack-winning ball (i.e. the money ball). I'd put a good stroke on it, rather than "baby" the shot in.

Yes, in 14.1, the tolerances for equipment quality tend to be a lot higher than average. But that's not the reason for why I'm hitting that shot authoritatively. I'm going to bee-line that 8-ball into the pocket. No stun, no helper english, no extra parts and pieces to "go wrong" (except for my aim, of course).

This brings up an interesting point, by the way. While the problems caused by "cling" (skidding) and the conditions leading up thereto are pretty significant and not to be trivialized, most of the time, I see people using "helper" english because it's sort of a crutch, or it gives him/her a "warm and fuzzy feeling." In reality, part of the problem may be an underlying fear to commit. Fear to commit to the cut itself, so "helper" english is introduced to help smooth-over that fear. A lot of folks who "rely" upon helper english may have this underlying fear of committing to a certain level of cut with the cue ball (you are putting your aim 100% on the line, afterall!), and then rationalize it with the cover story of "avoiding ball skidding" and throw and other "implied nastiness" associated with a center ball hit.

This is an interesting discussion all by itself, and I don't want to pollute this thread with this extended topic. Perhaps, it should enjoy a thread all its own.

Suffice to say that my shot choice may be colored by the fact I also play snooker, and in that cue sport, you either commit to the aim, or you don't -- you VERY RARELY impart sidespin unless you're shooting a "shot to nowhere" and you're instead trying to position the cue ball. You don't see snooker players "spinning" cut-shots into those tiny rounded-corner pockets. I trust my aim and my stroke, and I commit / die purely by my aim decision itself.

Hope that helps,
-Sean

 

[TSW]

Suffice to say that my shot choice may be colored by the fact I also play snooker, and in that cue sport, you either commit to the aim, or you don't -- you VERY RARELY impart sidespin unless you're shooting a "shot to nowhere" and you're instead trying to position the cue ball. You don't see snooker players "spinning" cut-shots into those tiny rounded-corner pockets. I trust my aim and my stroke, and I commit / die purely by my aim decision itself.

IMO this is the appropriate test. When very high degrees of accuracy are necessary, no English appears to be the preferred way to go. Snooker requires much higher accuracy than pool, and as a general rule snooker players cue on the vertical axis unless sidespin is absolutely necessary for position.

I don't know many Russian pyramid players, but I would imagine that they also cue on the vertical axis due to the very tight pocket tolerances.

For a thought experiment, imagine this sort of cut shot on exceedingly tough equipment (e.g., pool balls on a snooker table), and give any player in the world 100 tries at it using both running English and center axis. I'd bet the pocketing percentages would be higher for center axis cueing.

 

[donny mills]

jsp:

The reason why I'd hit *THIS* particular shot the way I described is for one simple reason: it's the game-/rack-winning ball (i.e. the money ball). I'd put a good stroke on it, rather than "baby" the shot in.

Yes, in 14.1, the tolerances for equipment quality tend to be a lot higher than average. But that's not the reason for why I'm hitting that shot authoritatively. I'm going to bee-line that 8-ball into the pocket. No stun, no helper english, no extra parts and pieces to "go wrong" (except for my aim, of course).

This brings up an interesting point, by problems caused by "cling" (skidding) and the conditions leading up thereto are pretty significant and not to be trivialized, most of the time, I see people using "helper" english because it's sort of a crutch, or it gives him/her a "warm and fuzzy feeling." In reality, part of the problem may be an underlying fear to commit. Fear to commit to the cut itself, so "helper" english is introduced to help smooth-over that fear. A lot of folks who "rely" upon helper english may have this underlying fear of committing to a certain level of cut with the cue ball (you are putting your aim 100% on the line, afterall!), and then rationalize it with the cover story of "avoiding ball skidding" and throw and other "implied nastiness" associated with a center ball hit.

This is an interesting discussion all by itself, and I don't want to pollute this thread with this extended topic. Perhaps, it should enjoy a thread all its own.

Suffice to say that my shot choice may be colored by the fact I also play snooker, and in that cue sport, you either commit to the aim, or you don't -- you VERY RARELY impart sidespin unless you're shooting a "shot to nowhere" and you're instead trying to position the cue ball. You don't see snooker players "spinning" cut-shots into those tiny rounded-corner pockets. I trust my aim and my stroke, and I commit / die purely by my aim decision itself.

Hope that helps,
-Sean

problems caused by "cling" (skidding) and the conditions leading up thereto are pretty significant and not to be trivialized, most of the time, I see people using "helper" english because it's sort of a crutch, or it gives him/her a "warm and fuzzy feeling." In reality, part of the problem may be an underlying fear to commit. Fear to commit to the cut itself, so "helper" english is introduced to help smooth-over that fear. A lot of folks who "rely" upon helper english may have this underlying fear of committing to a certain level of cut with the cue ball (you are putting your aim 100% on the line, afterall!), and then rationalize it with the cover story of "avoiding ball skidding" and throw and other "implied nastiness" associated with a center ball hit.


This part is really amusing. A crutch? Fear of committing? Lol.

 

[sfleinen]

IMO this is the appropriate test. When very high degrees of accuracy are necessary, no English appears to be the preferred way to go. Snooker requires much higher accuracy than pool, and as a general rule snooker players cue on the vertical axis unless sidespin is absolutely necessary for position.

I don't know many Russian pyramid players, but I would imagine that they also cue on the vertical axis due to the very tight pocket tolerances.

For a thought experiment, imagine this sort of cut shot on exceedingly tough equipment (e.g., pool balls on a snooker table), and give any player in the world 100 tries at it using both running English and center axis. I'd bet the pocketing percentages would be higher for center axis cueing.

TSW:

Russian Pyramid players are indeed in the same "vertical centerline" camp as snooker players. In fact, they (Russian Pyramid players) also hit the ball HARD -- not only to minimize the effects of skid and throw, but also to help get the object ball "past" the horns/knuckles on the pockets:

Notice the "horns"/knuckles on this Russian Pyramid table's pocket are burned-off:

That's a peculiarity of Russian Pyramid pocketing technique (vs. pool or snooker pocketing technique), of course. But the foundation behind it -- to remove/minimize outside influences and preserve accuracy -- are still there.

While my 14.1 game includes a lot of precision "touch" shots, I also keep to the centerline as much as possible. All too often I've overspun a shot (especially at those gentle "touch" speeds) and kicked myself, because when I first got down on the shot, I initially saw the centerball shot, but got "cutesy" with it and regretted it.

Game-winning ball? Unless I have no choice, I'm centerlining and bee-lining that ball to the pocket, assuming of course the path of the cue ball is unmistakably a non-scratch path.

-Sean

 

[sfleinen]

This part is really amusing. A crutch? Fear of committing? Lol.

That's just an observation with some players, Donny. It's certainly not a blanket statement "for all players" that use helper english. Just something I noticed when I asked some of them why they're using helper english on a shot that can be made without it.

-Sean

 

[donny mills]

Lux-man,
I'm not sure whether you're assessment is correct. This is an area where there is a lot of misperception.

I have been fortunate to spend time with a fairly large number of pros; and know only one that uses "helping English" on routine cuts. Many use it on radical cuts (near 90 degrees); but the diagrammed shot here is just a medium cut.

Every pro (except one - Grady) has told me to use no sidespin - it just makes your pocketing less accurate since you introduce squirt, curve, and throw into the equation (while there is contact induced throw for all such shots, the "helping" English may or may not help depending on the speed, amount of English, and amount of cut). The upshot of "helping" English on such routine shots is: LITTLE IF ANY POSITIVES; LOTS OF NEGATIVES. Stray from the vertical axis at your own peril.

Having said all of that, any medium level pro will pocket that shot with any amount of inside or outside that you like (but his percentages are almost invariably just a tad lower with any sidespin - guys with straight strokes know this, they've learned the hard way).

I'll tell em.. I wouldn't shoot this 8ball shot with centerball under any circumstances, Unless! It was the only way to get shape on the next ball.

 

[donny mills]

When position is irrelevant, how do you play cut shots? Do you throw the ball in with outside english, or do you aim a little thinner with center ball?

CueTable Help

Which method do you think is better and why?

This shot is getting shot in about 10-16 miles per hour (personal preference) with low outside. The only people I know that don't shoot this shot that way are candidates for the last 6 and the break in my experience. Unless you have to follow it for shape.

 

[Williebetmore]

It has also been "documented" numerous times in this forum that both Strickland and Sigel advocate using outside english on cut shots. Willie, why do you think Mike, Earl, and Grady have the opposite opinion? Do you think they're "wrong" for suggesting so?

Mike has never participated on the board, nor told me that. Earl suggested center ball when we visited him in Ohio.

Grady thought the outside would minimize contact induced throw (but he would be WAY more expert in its application than an amateur).

If pocketing is the only consideration, then I think yes, they are wrong in recommending it to me (but they will pocket such a super-high percentage they are right for recommending it to themselves).

 

[jsp]

Mike has never participated on the board, nor told me that. Earl suggested center ball when we visited him in Ohio.

I used the term "documented" loosely (hence the quotes). I meant that there have been 2nd-hand and 3rd-hand accounts that Sigel and Strickland use outside on cut shots, not that they posted their thoughts in this forum themselves.

(Doing a quick search made me find this interesting thread before my time here in the forum. Mark Tadd chimed in with his first posts advocating outside on cut shots.)

Grady thought the outside would minimize contact induced throw (but he would be WAY more expert in its application than an amateur).

If pocketing is the only consideration, then I think yes, they are wrong in recommending it to me (but they will pocket such a super-high percentage they are right for recommending it to themselves).

I think this is the key here. I think the pros who don't advocate using outside are mainly giving the advice to lower level players. An analogy would be Tiger Woods recommending to amateurs to keep the fade/draw in the golf bag unless it's absolutely necessary (severe dogleg or curving around a tree), and to simply just work on hitting the ball straight down the fairway or green. Complicating the shot can be detrimental for lower level players. But just because something is more complicated doesn't automatically make it wrong. For the higher level players, the contrary can be very true.

 

[deebee53]

I usually use a touch of inside on those shots. Since everyone is talking about using outside, I will have to practice that some.

 

[brulez]

english

For longer shots not near a rail i have found i use lower outside english. As for shorter shots either on or near the rail i use inside and a higher, so that i can come off the rail a little stronger. But i guess in all reality though, the english can be used in both inside and outside, it all depends on your pref. and what you are more comfortable with and more controling in. thats just my two cents

 

[Williebetmore]

This shot is getting shot in about 10-16 miles per hour (personal preference) with low outside. The only people I know that don't shoot this shot that way are candidates for the last 6 and the break in my experience. Unless you have to follow it for shape.

DM,
Players that can fire this in with outside a high percentage of the time can give most players here significant weight.

I'm wondering why you can't make it more often with center ball (I think all are convinced that stun is not ideal, but with center draw or center follow there will be less chance of significant contact induced throw)? Are you worried about skidding? Do you not allow for a bit of contact induced throw when you pocket with center ball? Or have you just done it so long that it is more comfortable than the other way.

I've not heard any proficient players offer a cogent reason for doing it, other than "it works for me," or it feels comfortable. Surely you could make a high percentage of these with inside, outside, or center. You must have some reason, but have you tested it?

 

[3andstop]

For me, so long as no particular position is needed and rolling it doesn't take the CB to a pocket, that's the way I'd hit it.

Perhaps playing nearly all 14.1 or 1pkt has a bearing on this.

On the other hand, I think those who feel comfortable with a touch of outside will diminish any possibility of cling or skid doing that since the CB will roll off the OB rather than slide across it.

horizontally speaking that is ....

 

[Andrew Manning]

A-man,
I'm going to have to disagree (unless your idiot is a LOT smarter than average). How does this idiot differentiate the outside English that the cue ball naturally picks up from the object ball (contact induced sidespin) from purposeful sidespin applied???

Also how does the idiot read the mind of the pro to know that "position doesn't matter" as proposed in this thread?

Your idiot is WAY smarter than me (...damnit again...my wife is right again....).

Well, what I *really* meant when I said "any idiot" is myself. I'll address your concerns:

From my own game, I have a good sense for how much outside english the CB naturally picks up from contact with the OB. It's really very very little. Nothing like the amount it will pick up from an angled contact with a rail (which is quite significant).

Regarding "position doesn't matter", I guess the answer's the same, in a sense: I play this game. I watch mostly 9-ball, and it's really an awful lot easier to know what a player was trying for than it is for straight pool or one-pocket, where position kind of always matters. And outside english on the money ball, unless the shot is dead straight, is practically ubiquitous; much much more than scratch-avoidance would dictate.

I also believe that most top pros know exactly whether they are putting any sidespin on the cue ball (at least within 1 mm of their intended target). Low level pro, I'm not sure of.

In a sense I think you're right; as they're lining up and shooting the shot, they do know.

However, I think you get a lot of statements along the lines of "I stick to the vertical center of the CB except when extreme circumstances call for side spin", when in fact the player uses side spin on 75-80% of shots, and has never actually tallied up how often the circumstances seem to dictate that they use sidespin, and is just repeating the gross underestimate of how often they use sidespin because it's conventional wisdom in the pool world, and it kinda sounds "truthy".

P.S. - you guys are really again ignoring the Breedlove rule for solving these issues for yourself. Shoot 50 of these balls with center ball (best effort please), then shoot 50 balls with 1 tip outside, then shoot 50 with 2 tips outside, then shoot 50 with 1 tip inside, then shoot 50 with 2 tips inside. Any player that makes more with English than with center ball has a SERIOUS stroke problem and is unlikely to be a top pro. JMO.

I don't think this is true, and I don't think 50 in a row is ever a good test to model actual game performance at all. Making it when it counts, on the first try, is very different than pocketing attempt #28 in a row. And I think most good players will pocket moderate cut shots more confidently with outside english than with center ball. As for serious stroke problems, I don't think Donny Mills has them, and I don't think he's in a minority among excellent players in being more confident using outside.

P.P.S. - I've ignored the draw/follow/stun part. I think that stun maximizes the contact induced throw, so I would be above or below center if I were potting this for my life.

No arguments here.

-Andrew

 

[Scott Lee]

Baxter...I'm with you! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I don't use any english unless necessary for position.

K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid)

 

[thefonz]

no shape is bad shape

you may say position is irrelevant, and perhaps if it's the winning ball you might be right in some circumstances, but you should alway have control of your cueball in any case otherwise turning whitey loose could cause a scratch. that being said, you can cut that shot in all day long playing center ball if you want.