Oversight of BCAPL international teams?

[renard]

Funny story from the APA Nationals where I had a team playing in the Master's Division...

Right out of the gate we drew a team from CA (that ended up winning the whole thing) that had a guy from China...

The rules state that only players are allowed inside the ropes, but tournament officials allowed him to have an interpreter AND allowed the interpreter to have an interpreter because she didn't understand the "language of pool"...

When I asked why the interpreter's interpreter couldn't just be the only interpreter I was told that the two interpreters spoke a slightly different dialect and that would be confusing to the player...

Yes, VERY confusing...

OMG that makes no sense! Talk about frustrating!

A story for you just the same: A local team was playing a team from Germany. The whole match they coached each other through nearly every game but to no avail. Upon losing two of the American players fluent in German spoke in the Germans native tongue wishing them luck and to try and keep the coaching to a minimum there next match in the losers bracket!

 

[iceball]

Cry for me Portugal!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhDOq404deU&feature=player_embedded#!

 

[Duane Tuula]

Several international teams each year always appear to be "cherry picked" at the nationals. My first year in '92 at the VNEA we finished 7th in the open division. Team UK knocked us out. Any yes, that team consisted of players from England, Ireland & Scotland. I'm sure they all played together in a league though.

The willingness of the sanctioning bodies to accept those players at nationals includes the ability to "overlook" the obvious signs that we have all seen. The "coaching" issue with foreign languages I have experienced and watched. I haven't seen any dramatic results because of this but it is a huge hole.

The bracketing system needs to reworked. I find it highly amusing to travel to nationals with 1300 players in singles and play someone from a neighboring leauge your first match. I thought Gary Benson had this handled at one point but it seems to have gotten worse the last several years.

 

[stuckart]

I believe many USA Teams are created from leagues just like the league I run out of Arizona. We have 2 sessions a year. This year 9 teams and 8 teams respectively. That is about 50 players the first session and 45 the other session (many played in both). All in all, we had about 60 Male players that played and we had 3 teams of people that made the trip to Vegas. (Side note: It cost us nearly the same costs in Vegas as International players, our flights are just a cheaper).

In Arizona we have over 20 different BCA Leagues. No player is allowed to play on a team with any other players from another BCA League.

It sounds like Portugal creates an Umbrella league, so in our case we should do away with the 20 different BCA Leagues and have just 1 Arizona BCA League and 20 different divisions. Then we can move people around, and create multiple monster teams.

Imagine if every state did that. The Total Teams at the BCAPL would be less than 100 and soon we'd have no tournament at all.

This all sounds very similiar to the rules of Public High School Sports. You can only have players that go to your high school. But then some schools recruit players and move families inside the district to create super teams. I can't see any pool players moving closer to be able to create these teams, so I think having a Validated Address restriction per league is not out of the question. Although I would not want to be involved in trying to validate each and every player.

 

[cardiac kid]

One good thing I see on the horizon is an Advanced Division. All foreign and players of known ability will automatically be placed in higher divisions and the OPEN can start to become more of what it should be.

Well, that's sort of a good idea. Right after Mr. Griffin bought the BCAPL, I complained directly to him about players never competing in a sanctioned league yet being able to play in the Open Division. The following year, Mark came over to me and asked if I was happy with the newly created Players Division. A simpler way would have been to just force those few players into the Masters and build that division up. It does help to a certain degree but... Now we have one additional division splitting up the "added" money even further!

The Advanced Division sounds interesting. Perhaps an International Division would be a more fitting solution. Regardless of the name, the "added" money will again be split up further. If the competition becomes too difficult, the BCAPL will lose it's international flavor. Perhaps that's a good thing as imagine if China or the Phillipines decided to sanction individuals and teams. If there is little or no control now, what would that future bring?

Lyn

 

[JB Cases]

Don't know anything about the BCAPL and the international rules but.......

When lived in Germany the German version of the VNEA would have some regional tournaments and the winners of those tournaments would form the teams that ended up in Vegas.

If I remember correctly that is. I could be completely wrong as it's been a LONG TIME since then - around 17/18 years ago.

Team Stacking happens everywhere. Unfortunately it's much easier to do it in foreign countries.

I know of one local poolroom in a certain city where none of the players ever even play. The room owner has someone fill out the sheets and pays the money each week to the league and then he takes his all star team to Vegas all on his own dime.

Coaching also happens. I have been around the German teams when they were doing it (I speak German).

I can't stand it here in China when I am playing for money and four people on the side are coaching. They usually shut up after I call them on it. Sometimes I will get up and join in and walk to the table and coach my opponent right along with them. Usually that makes the point well enough.

I honestly don't know what the solution is for stacked teams. Maybe the way to go is to withold the money for 30 days while the winning teams are investigated. Sort of a team doping test of sorts. If the team is found to be stacked then the prize money is divided among all the teams that they defeated in the event and they are barred from all future events.

These days it's pretty easy to see if a guy is active in a certain area. So if the team members are not active in the league area they are supposed to come from then they can't be considered as being a true team. Just an idea - seems like more headache and way more work.

Good topic Steve Lipsky. Nothing against Portugal, they participate as they are allowed to - the onus to make sure that their teams comply with the same rules that the United States and Canada teams have to comply with is on the BCAPL (and other leagues).

I personally feel that the international participation and flavor of the BCA and VNEA events is one of the best things about them. I do not feel that having to go up against super teams in the OPEN is a very good thing. The year we took 13-16th place we went up against a super strong Spanish team and got reamed. They never missed a ball and put us in the loser's bracket. All of our players lived within ten miles of each other and we all had day jobs. The Spanish team either won the open or got second. It should be obvious to the league owner that it's statisically impossible for a "country" to send teams year after year which finish incredibly high without them being stacked.

In the USA no "state" is sending teams. In Colorado the best players all live within 50 miles from each other and they play on a team together throughout the year and that team goes to Vegas.

Of course in some places super teams are formed but for the most part it's guys who play together all year who make up the teams that go to Vegas and that's the way it should be all over the world.

 

[mooseman]

While I believe that the Portugal players are coming from within the same league system I don't believe they are ORIGINAL team members. As such I believe they should not play in the open but rather in the MASTERS as we would when forming a team of league members.

This is particularly when I read about forming teams AFTER an open tournament to determine who will be going to Vegas.

Mind you I guess we should do the same by holding 2 sessions. Normal session and the Vegas session while getting the minimum 8 weeks in to play as a team in the open.

 

[Richardson]

This post is going to make me seem like a idiot, but it is what it is.

2004 we went to BCA Nationals and played a team from Spain. They coached and talked constantly. We called a ref over and told him, he asked me what did they say.....i replied i don't speak their language sir. He said unless i can tell him what they said he couldn't do anything. I told the ref unless he fixed the problem he might have a bigger one on his hands. (btw the ref never said a word to the other team.)

He walked away.

I walked over to their team captain and said. If we hear it again, we're fighting, my team and i don't give a shit about being kicked out of this tournament or casino if i means being cheated to be here.

That ended the problem and we won 13-10.

This was the only problem i had with teams there, i have only played in the open division. All in all i have had a great time there the 3 times i went. One year we did bad and then won the 2nd chance tournament, lol.

 

[cardiac kid]

Look guys,

We can whine, complain and in general make our frustration heard. Steve Lipsky and several others on this forum thread are absolutely correct. In the end it's still all about the money. The sanction fees, entry fees, late fees, dollar per game fees, ad nausium. It is in the best financial interest of the BCAPL, VNEA, APA, ACS, TAP and their international counterparts to keep the foreign teams coming. It's about the money as much as the competition!!!! Maybe more.

Lyn

 

[Holly]

I guess the Portuguese have things organized and in the US we don't.
That's a Mark Griffin and BCA problem that need to get BCA organized in a way like a soccer championship. The concept is the same.
I don't think the Portuguese, Spanish, Chinese, etc should not be playing masters just because they got their $hit together...

Just to clarify something, Mark Griffin owns the BCA Pool League, not the BCA (Billiard Congress of America). I got the impression from your post that you were looking at the two organizations as the same group, which they are not. You imply the BCA needs to consider organizing in a manner such as Portugal and other countries are, which the U.S. as a nation is not. I am not necessarily debating that, but wish to clarify that Mark should not be listed personally as being responsible for what the Billiard Congress of America chooses to do in their decision making processes. Thanks, Holly

 

[#Cruncher]

Stacked Open teams?

This year the only team from outside the US or Canada to finish in the top 64 was Bermuda in a tie for 33rd. Maybe the BCAPL is doing a better job at screening foreign Open teams. The two teams in the finals were missing multiple balls, so I don't think there were any superstar teams this year.

As for Portugal winning the Masters division, it seems to be a problem letting them draft from their entire country for talent. It was worse several years ago when the English won the Masters with most of their team consisteing of Grand Master caliber players.

 

[Rowdy]

New Catagory?

Why can't BCAPL create another teams event where each state/country sends one "all-star" team? Some great matches there. If another team from an "umbrella" league country wants to enter, they have to be from the same city at the least.

 

[SpinDoctor]

Why can't BCAPL create another teams event where each state/country sends one "all-star" team? Some great matches there. If another team from an "umbrella" league country wants to enter, they have to be from the same city at the least.

Or go one step further, create a division for teams consisting of ANY players from any BCA charter that have played "x" number of weeks. Stack up any 5 players you want from anywhere in the world and play off against other similar teams. So long as you have the minimum number of weeks you're eligible to enter your team.

 

[Guerra Cues]

Just to clarify something, Mark Griffin owns the BCA Pool League, not the BCA (Billiard Congress of America). I got the impression from your post that you were looking at the two organizations as the same group, which they are not. You imply the BCA needs to consider organizing in a manner such as Portugal and other countries are, which the U.S. as a nation is not. I am not necessarily debating that, but wish to clarify that Mark should not be listed personally as being responsible for what the Billiard Congress of America chooses to do in their decision making processes. Thanks, Holly

Hey Holly,
Thanks for the clarification.
I all I wanted to say is that it is impossible to have similar models but you can have the same rules.
BCA is doing what they think it works and it is best for the development of the sport as well the same thing happens with organizations in other countries.

 

[cardiac kid]

This year the only team from outside the US or Canada to finish in the top 64 was Bermuda in a tie for 33rd. Maybe the BCAPL is doing a better job at screening foreign Open teams. The two teams in the finals were missing multiple balls, so I don't think there were any superstar teams this year.

As for Portugal winning the Masters division, it seems to be a problem letting them draft from their entire country for talent. It was worse several years ago when the English won the Masters with most of their team consisteing of Grand Master caliber players.

Perhaps the World economy rather than BCAPL oversite kept the foreign teams away? The English were there. In large numbers. Only they were playing in the World Master 9 Ball and US Open 10 Ball. There were definitely fewer Canadians. Perhaps they have the same economic woes we have.
Know one thing for sure. The first two teams we played, played jam up. Both hill - hill matches. We won both. Only finished tied for 33rd though. Lost hill - hill. Something about live by the sword .....

Lyn

 

[watchez]

This year the only team from outside the US or Canada to finish in the top 64 was Bermuda in a tie for 33rd. Maybe the BCAPL is doing a better job at screening foreign Open teams. The two teams in the finals were missing multiple balls, so I don't think there were any superstar teams this year.

As for Portugal winning the Masters division, it seems to be a problem letting them draft from their entire country for talent. It was worse several years ago when the English won the Masters with most of their team consisteing of Grand Master caliber players.

The English team did not win - they got second

It was a close match, Mick Hill dogged a ball in the side pocket and that was the turning point.

Anyways, none of these foreign countries should be allowed to cherry pick from their entire nation and the BCAPL rules should be changed to allow them to play in the first place.

 

[Celtic]

Just to clarify something, Mark Griffin owns the BCA Pool League, not the BCA (Billiard Congress of America). I got the impression from your post that you were looking at the two organizations as the same group, which they are not. You imply the BCA needs to consider organizing in a manner such as Portugal and other countries are, which the U.S. as a nation is not. I am not necessarily debating that, but wish to clarify that Mark should not be listed personally as being responsible for what the Billiard Congress of America chooses to do in their decision making processes. Thanks, Holly

Old topic I know, but a very important one. And "that" is the only response it got from anyone "official"? A warning about the differences of the BCAPL and the BCA?

Just so we are clear, the tournament that we are all talking about in Vegas is a BCAPL run thing that is part of the BCAPL league system that Mark Griffin (the guy who posts here quite often) runs right? So it would fall to the BCAPL to actually comment on this, fix the flaws in the system, or whistle, ignoring the thread and hope it goes away...

 

[Mark Griffin]

International players

The BCAPL office is well aware of the problems that the international players have caused the National events - in fact, our team from Alaska ran into Spain #1 & Spain #2 all the way back in the early 1990's. (we came in 4th)

We have had several years where we had a pretty good handle on it. Last year the players from Portugal got the best of us.

This is also part of the reason for the creation of the advanced division and the changed criteria for the Master division, both singles and team.

The only problem we have is the players (from any country) playing in a lower division than they belong.

If they can win the masters, more power to them. But the real problem is master level players getting into the open division.

We have a solution for that this upcoming year. Probably all international players will NOT be allowed in the open divisions, unless they are known to be an open player. We can move them to the advanced or master division.

The master team is now only 3 players - made up of players from ANY league - just must have 8 weeks of play. This will make in possible for a lot more teams to compete.

Hope this helps. Be assured, we are not ignoring this problem - hopefully, we will have made the future years more fair for more players.

Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI - BCAPL - USAPL

 

[Richardson]

They coach EVERY YEAR...without a doubt. And then when the ref comes over, they play dumb and state they can't speak English, don't understand what the ref is trying to tell them about coaching. They speak just fine up to that point.

I ran into this, the ref asked me what he said......i said, i dont speak spanish, how would i know.

The ref said, then i can't help you.

I politely went over to the team captain and said, speak english to your team....or we're gonna fight, because i'd rather be kicked out of here then be cheated. That ended it at least for our teams.