Oversight of BCAPL international teams?

[Steve Lipsky]

I guess this post is directed mostly at Mr. Griffin, who I have found to be nothing but an upstanding gentleman looking out for the best interests of the game. But I am curious for other thoughts as well.

How is the BCA guaranteeing a fair process for vetting their international team players? Every year, it seems Portugal puts together a team of monsters - and often, more than one team. I find it hard to believe they are all coming out of a single league system (at least as one is defined here in the US).

It really seems as if they are drawing their players from the entire country, and mixing and matching them to get around the Team Master rules. I think a lot of them don't even play the singles so that they never become masters.

It just seems like the Americans have to jump through hoops to put together decent teams, and based on what I see from the international crowd, they are not having the same difficulties.

Thoughts?

- Steve

 

[Guerra Cues]

Hey Steve,
I think I have something to say on this one.
Portugal has a big league that's overseen by the Portuguese Billiard Federation.
The league is divided into different areas of the country, and before the league ends there is a big Open to find the best players that will come to Vegas with all expenses payed.
Every year different players come to Vegas and there are a few repeats among those players.
As an example, Nuno Santos won the open this year and will play in the Masters next year, Bruno Sousa (won the Open Singles last year) and Manuel Gama won the Masters (1st and 2nd place) and will play the Grand Masters next year, I also got a call from the Pedro Gomes, the President of Billiard Federation that the Portuguese Team of Masters snipped the 1st place as well!
What you need to understand is that a lot of these players go on their own to some Euro Tour competitions and by playing some of the European monsters they grow as players.
I am Portuguese and live over here in California and I have been helping them out with logistics and some of the communications they need to have with the BCA.
The reason why you do not see more Americans on the top spots is because the level of play and SPORTSMANSHIP is light years away from the Europeans.
I can give you several examples being on of them the match between Larry Price and Manuel Gama, Gama crushed Price 7-3.
If you have more questions or comments I might be able to answer some of them.
I know the the BCA gets a report of their games and stats before they are accepted and I can guarantee you that there is no cheating.

 

[Steve Lipsky]

Hey Steve,
I think I have something to say on this one.
Portugal has a big league that's overseen by the Portuguese Billiard Federation.
The league is divided into different areas of the country, and before the league ends there is a big Open to find the best players that will come to Vegas with all expenses payed.
Every year different players come to Vegas and there are a few repeats among those players.
As an example, Nuno Santos won the open this year and will play in the Masters next year, Bruno Sousa (won the Open Singles last year) and Manuel Gama won the Masters (1st and 2nd place) and will play the Grand Masters next year, I also got a call from the Pedro Gomes, the President of Billiard Federation that the Portuguese Team of Masters snipped the 1st place as well!
What you need to understand is that a lot of these players go on their own to some Euro Tour competitions and by playing some of the European monsters they grow as players.
I am Portuguese and live over here in California and I have been helping them out with logistics and some of the communications they need to have with the BCA.
The reason why you do not see more Americans on the top spots is because the level of play and SPORTSMANSHIP is light years away from the Europeans.
I can give you several examples being on of them the match between Larry Price and Manuel Gama, Gama crushed Price 7-3.
If you have more questions or comments I might be able to answer some of them.
I know the the BCA gets a report of their games and stats before they are accepted and I can guarantee you that there is no cheating.

Thanks for the info, Tony. I wasn't accusing anyone of cheating, but your post is actually exactly what I was fearing. I think it's egregious that you get the benefit of choosing your best players from the entire country (who are eligible as non-masters), when as Americans our hands are completely tied.

I have no problem with Portugal's sportsmanship, but I do feel your elite teams should be forced to play the Master's divisions. You'll still have a competitive advantage over us because there are still limitations on our ability to create teams from different regions of the country.

- Steve

 

[Guerra Cues]

I have no problem with Portugal's sportsmanship, but I do feel your elite teams should be forced to play the Master's divisions. You'll still have a competitive advantage over us because there are still limitations on our ability to create teams from different regions of the country.

- Steve

I guess the Portuguese have things organized and in the US we don't.
That's a Mark Griffin and BCA problem that need to get BCA organized in a way like a soccer championship. The concept is the same.
I don't think the Portuguese, Spanish, Chinese, etc should not be playing masters just because they got their $hit together...

 

[tucson9ball]

In the USA we have many league sytems. Some cover bigger areas and have a bigger pool to draw from. If we had one league operator for the whole state of Arizona for example, we could get a couple players from other areas to join our team at Nationals. There just has to be 3 members from your team that play on league nights, the other 2 could be from anywhere else in that is covered under the operators area.
Portugal obviously has this very organised. But, even they will run out of players to keep putting into the Open class if they keep cashing deep in the field.

 

[almer]

Hey Steve,
I think I have something to say on this one.
Portugal has a big league that's overseen by the Portuguese Billiard Federation.
The league is divided into different areas of the country, and before the league ends there is a big Open to find the best players that will come to Vegas with all expenses payed.
Every year different players come to Vegas and there are a few repeats among those players.
As an example, Nuno Santos won the open this year and will play in the Masters next year, Bruno Sousa (won the Open Singles last year) and Manuel Gama won the Masters (1st and 2nd place) and will play the Grand Masters next year, I also got a call from the Pedro Gomes, the President of Billiard Federation that the Portuguese Team of Masters snipped the 1st place as well!
What you need to understand is that a lot of these players go on their own to some Euro Tour competitions and by playing some of the European monsters they grow as players.
I am Portuguese and live over here in California and I have been helping them out with logistics and some of the communications they need to have with the BCA.
The reason why you do not see more Americans on the top spots is because the level of play and SPORTSMANSHIP is light years away from the Europeans.
I can give you several examples being on of them the match between Larry Price and Manuel Gama, Gama crushed Price 7-3.
If you have more questions or comments I might be able to answer some of them.
I know the the BCA gets a report of their games and stats before they are accepted and I can guarantee you that there is no cheating.

My team played the team with Nuna Santos on it,he only won 1 game,the rest of his team were very average and missed a lot of shots,we won easily,one of the players i played last year in singles and he definitely belonged in open,the master players could have played in grand masters,my opinion,but i watched James Davis SR play last night in open team fr texas that finished 3rd and i have to kinda question that,plus they only finish third so how many masters and pros were on the first and second place teams

 

[watchez]

Thanks for the info, Tony. I wasn't accusing anyone of cheating, but your post is actually exactly what I was fearing. I think it's egregious that you get the benefit of choosing your best players from the entire country (who are eligible as non-masters), when as Americans our hands are completely tied.

I have no problem with Portugal's sportsmanship, but I do feel your elite teams should be forced to play the Master's divisions. You'll still have a competitive advantage over us because there are still limitations on our ability to create teams from different regions of the country.

- Steve

4 years ago, maybe it was 5 I forget, we (well I got to keep score) beat a team of English Masters in the finals - Darren Appleton, Karl Boyes, Mick Hill, and I think Chris Melling was on the team as well along with a 5th player. 6 months later they were on the IPT getting top 5 finishes.

 

[rossaroni]

so how many masters and pros were on the first and second place teams

The team that won the open are friends of mine and 3 of them have been my teammates. I can tell you that none of them are pros. Two are team masters, which is within the guidelines. Of course they all play very good, but only one of them will be a master player next year. He also happens to be the youngest player on the team(18).

 

[iceball]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2gVchDLQ5Q

Remember PORTUGAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[MikeM]

I guess the Portuguese have things organized and in the US we don't.
That's a Mark Griffin and BCA problem that need to get BCA organized in a way like a soccer championship. The concept is the same.
I don't think the Portuguese, Spanish, Chinese, etc should not be playing masters just because they got their $hit together...

So, if I'm reading this correctly, the teams from Portugal are allowed to organize under different rules than the teams from America - is that correct?

Basically, the American teams are "house league" teams that play together all the time and the Portuguese send All-Star teams.

If that's not cheating, it's right on the edge.

MM

 

[mikeyfrost]

Are they using a loop hole in the wording by saying they are all under a single league but different sectioning or divisions if you will. That's really weak. I think the USA should do similar things to the other countries since clearly it works right? Let's get the best Open players in the country together and see if they dont steam roll that Portugal team.

 

[Stixnballs]

So, if I'm reading this correctly, the teams from Portugal are allowed to organize under different rules than the teams from America - is that correct?

Basically, the American teams are "house league" teams that play together all the time and the Portuguese send All-Star teams.

If that's not cheating, it's right on the edge.

MM

I would have to agree. where is the 3 person original tema concept that us American's must play by? if they are putting together allstar teams then tehy shoul dplay in the masters. We just got back and didn't have to play any of these teams but we did play the team from Minnesota and they shalacked us. We finsihed 17th (respectible) and that team that won the open was fantastic.....the 18year old kid has to be the best I saw the whole 10 days.

 

[Guerra Cues]

So, if I'm reading this correctly, the teams from Portugal are allowed to organize under different rules than the teams from America - is that correct?

Basically, the American teams are "house league" teams that play together all the time and the Portuguese send All-Star teams.

If that's not cheating, it's right on the edge.

MM

Nope... You are wrong and not reading correctly what I typed.
Basically they are divided between country regions like we have different states.
At the end of the season, a big Open happens to pick the best players on each category to come to the BCA and yes the rules are exactly the same as in the USA.

 

[MikeM]

Nope... You are wrong and not reading correctly what I typed.
Basically they are divided between country regions like we have different states.
At the end of the season, a big Open happens to pick the best players on each category to come to the BCA and yes the rules are exactly the same as in the USA.

So is the USA allowed to have a big Open to pick the best players to form Super Teams as well? I don't think that is the case, but maybe you know differently.

To take it further, if the US were to divide the country into regions, say East and West and have an open tournament to pick the best players from those regions, would that be allowable under the rules?

Mike

 

[Da Bank]

Nope... You are wrong and not reading correctly what I typed.
Basically they are divided between country regions like we have different states.
At the end of the season, a big Open happens to pick the best players on each category to come to the BCA and yes the rules are exactly the same as in the USA.

so the best players in each "category" (whatever that means..) are selected to compete on a single team, even if these people had never played on a team together before?

Sounds like an unfair advantage. If we could hold an open event here in texas and select the best players from that open to compete on a single team, I can virtually guarantee that team would win every year.

 

[Guerra Cues]

so the best players in each "category" (whatever that means..) are selected to compete on a single team, even if these people had never played on a team together before?

Sounds like an unfair advantage. If we could hold an open event here in texas and select the best players from that open to compete on a single team, I can virtually guarantee that team would win every year.

Perhaps I did not make myself clear... enough...
The same way we have players in the US that play in the masters or singles, those players will play in the masters or singles if they qualify...
That Open I am referring to is to pick the best players to play in the Open in Vegas, from there they form teams, the same way we do here.
When you have an incentive like travel, hotel and basic meals payed I guarantee you that the effort in play will increase 3 or 4 times more when you play just for fun.
What is interesting is that even Spain qualifies players to come to the BCA and they never really rank high in the Open...
I would compare Portugal with almost like a little Taiwan or Korea in pool in Europe in terms of quality. We are 3 or 4 times smaller than Spain with about 10 million people.
Players play their heart out and they come here and win.
Perhaps if local leagues would give out incentives like the ones I mentioned, perhaps the level of play would increase as well.

 

[Bino8]

No, this big open it´s individually and teams, the teams that play in Vegas have 3 players from the original team.

It´s the same system that you have in Vegas, all the portuguese players are amateurs we dont have pros in portugal, bruno sousa have 24 years old, manuel gama have 28 years old.

The sports in portugal it´s growing like in england are all the europe, but we are late in comparison of the rest of the europe, and ear we play a lot of 7ft and in the rest odf the europe it´s just 9ft.

But next year we are in Vegas to win more competitions and more than 30.000 us that we have win this year.
We love your money.

Thanks,

 

[watchez]

No, this big open it´s individually and teams, the teams that play in Vegas have 3 players from the original team.

It´s the same system that you have in Vegas, all the portuguese players are amateurs we dont have pros in portugal, bruno sousa have 24 years old, manuel gama have 28 years old.

The sports in portugal it´s growing like in england are all the europe, but we are late in comparison of the rest of the europe, and ear we play a lot of 7ft and in the rest odf the europe it´s just 9ft.

But next year we are in Vegas to win more competitions and more than 30.000 us that we have win this year.
We love your money.

Thanks,

Exactly - what Portugal does, what Spain does is they state they have one league and all these sub leagues under it. It would be like saying that every player in the USA is under the BCA league so they can form monster teams using players from all over the US. Then they come over here, coach their teammates in their language when needed and go home with the money. Like I stated earlier, it was the same that the English did a few years ago....and Spain has done so previously. Danny Alcaide was a BCA player and on a super formed Spanish team before he became a force in World Pro events.

 

[mikeyfrost]

Perhaps I did not make myself clear... enough...
The same way we have players in the US that play in the masters or singles, those players will play in the masters or singles if they qualify...
That Open I am referring to is to pick the best players to play in the Open in Vegas, from there they form teams, the same way we do here.
When you have an incentive like travel, hotel and basic meals payed I guarantee you that the effort in play will increase 3 or 4 times more when you play just for fun.
What is interesting is that even Spain qualifies players to come to the BCA and they never really rank high in the Open...
I would compare Portugal with almost like a little Taiwan or Korea in pool in Europe in terms of quality. We are 3 or 4 times smaller than Spain with about 10 million people.
Players play their heart out and they come here and win.
Perhaps if local leagues would give out incentives like the ones I mentioned, perhaps the level of play would increase as well.

Tony I think you are making it worse and worse and making the Portugal team seem like an "All-Star" Squad. The process you described is nothing like what we have in the USA. Also when taking a team to Vegas all the players have to be a part of the same local league system. So while Portugal may be a small country, that country only has a single league, not the 100s we have here in the USA. So yes it's a loop hole that they can all play together the way they do.

 

[Guerra Cues]

No, this big open it´s individually and teams, the teams that play in Vegas have 3 players from the original team.

It´s the same system that you have in Vegas, all the portuguese players are amateurs we dont have pros in portugal, bruno sousa have 24 years old, manuel gama have 28 years old.

The sports in portugal it´s growing like in england are all the europe, but we are late in comparison of the rest of the europe, and ear we play a lot of 7ft and in the rest odf the europe it´s just 9ft.

But next year we are in Vegas to win more competitions and more than 30.000 us that we have win this year.
We love your money.

Thanks,

Hey Bino,
The money comments are just mean
Hopefully you guys will do good next year again and I hope to see you in April since I am going to Portugal next year around that time. To spend Easter there.