Oxymoron - Invitational World Championship

[John Barton]

I understand about the WPA but what you must realize is that perception is reality...especially when it comes to fans and spectators. It is not the fault of the general public that they are ignorant...it is the job of the WPA to "better" the sport and make the organization legitimate. At this time many posters on this forum and many pool fans around the world feel that there is no true world pool championship or legitimate pool organization. Therefore, the sanctioning body of pool is weak.

Ask any football fan who sanctions football in america...they will say NFL

Ask any baseball fan who sanctions baseball in america...they will say MLB

Ask a pool fan who sanctions pool in america and you will get a lot of different answers or a lot of people that say "I don't know."

Although I am not a soccer fan, take a look at FIFA...they have the real deal. Pool should take a page from Soccer if they want to be a great and organized international sport.

www.fifa.com

Absolutely - And FIFA is putting up the 6.4 MILLION DOLLAR prize fund for the Women's World Cup (World Championships) this year. The winning team takes home one million.

In Pool any PROMOTER can BUY themselves a "World Championship". They can change the rules, change the game, invite whom they wish, and basically do just about whatever they like as long as they pay the sanctioning fee from the WPA. Matchroom has done it. Every year they change something from the break to the qualifying rules. Randy Goldwater has done it by staging a "World Championship" where some obviously unqualified players were invited and qualified players were made to play in satellite events in order to try for a berth.

The WPA is horribly understaffed. The sport of competitive billiards is about as fragmented as a sport can be.

Can anyone name another sport or game that has so many variations as billiards? And everyone claims to be the "governing body" (I hate that term).

It is no wonder then that we get so much debate over these events when the creation of them is mired in a non-transparent and political swamp.

 

[NYC cue dude]

on a different note, in light of all the nastiness that has been rampant on this forum lately, I have decided to place some of these members on ignore. I have been drawn into discussions and arguments that I have no business being engaged in. At the same time, ihave found myself writing things that I should not and would not under normal conditions. We have lost blackjack, albeit probably temporarily, but I won't be made to feel that way myself.

In the time I have been here, I have only had one poster on ignore until Jam joined him. Now my list is 6.

Rg

 

[John Barton]

Randy, I don't know which "world straight pool championships" you are referring to, but I attended the World Pocket Billiards Championship in New York City in 1968 (Crane won), and also the same event in Los Angeles in 1970 (Crane won again), and there were a helluva lot more than 8 contestants. The game was 14.1.

However, you're correct in stating that these events were invitational.

Doc

I will bet all my net worth, all 37 cents of it, that there was no invitee with less than a stellar record of achievement in 14.1 at that event. I will bet that there was no Bo Ram Cha equivalent at that event.

Randy also forgets that "World Titles" also used to be decided by challenge matches. Several of Mosconi's "World Championiships" were successful defenses of his title against challengers.

 

[punter]

Invitational?

on a different note, in light of all the nastiness that has been rampant on this forum lately, I have decided to place some of these members on ignore. I have been drawn into discussions and arguments that I have no business being engaged in. At the same time, ihave found myself writing things that I should not and would not under normal conditions. We have lost blackjack, albeit probably temporarily, but I won't be made to feel that way myself.

In the time I have been here, I have only had one poster on ignore until Jam joined him. Now my list is 6.

Rg

Does one get to qualify for your ignore list, or is it an invitational?

 

[dimes33]

Does one get to qualify for your ignore list, or is it an invitational?

i know i got my invite and im glad!

 

[John Barton]

on a different note, in light of all the nastiness that has been rampant on this forum lately, I have decided to place some of these members on ignore. I have been drawn into discussions and arguments that I have no business being engaged in. At the same time, ihave found myself writing things that I should not and would not under normal conditions. We have lost blackjack, albeit probably temporarily, but I won't be made to feel that way myself.

In the time I have been here, I have only had one poster on ignore until Jam joined him. Now my list is 6.

Rg

Awesome. I feel so privileged to be on Randy Goldwater's ignore list. Thank you so much for sharing that you have one and who is on it. Maybe you can put us all on ignore and talk to yourself. I don't put you on ignore because you provide too many laughs with you antics. This is one place where you don't get to bully the "little people" with your money. And it's great that you can't read my posts - everyone else can and that's who I am really talking to anyway.

Of course you could always ship a million bucks to Mike Howerton and buy AZ Billiards and ban all the folks you don't like. But then you know that wouldn't work either because you couldn't possibly stop us all from having our say when you try the "I am rich and therefore right" method of debate.

Why do I defy you? Well it's because I can.

 

[bud green]

Man, lots of drama around here these days. Just a few points:

NYC cue dude seems to be rubbing some people the wrong way but at least he's trying to promote something, anything, at a time when most of the pool halls seem to be struggling or going out of business. I think the 8 players only thing might be way back in the old days, but his point about them being invitationals is still valid.

Bob J. is too modest to state it but he was huge in getting some of the three cushion events in Las Vegas to happen. A room owner in Northern Cal mentioned Bob could sell every ticket for every day and still be guaranteed to lose thousands... some people are helping to keep the games alive and don't care about being patted on the back for it. They just love the game.

With the IPT failing, the $$ any world championship in pool offers is still not worth players travelling halfway around the world to compete in them. This ain't golf- 12th place doesn't pay 40 grand, it pays less than expenses probably.

Until a new movie comes out and drives average Joe into the halls again, or someone finally finds a way to promote an entertaining show (i.e. poker's success) on a major network, pool is going to remain at the level its basically at.

 

[!Smorgass Bored]

Oy-Vey !

I feel so privileged to be on Randy Goldwater's ignore list. Thank you so much for sharing that you have one and who is on it. QUOTE]



WHOA, where did he list who was on his list ? Uh-oh, I haven't heard from him lately...
Doug
( Randy, are you there ? Can you hear me ? Can you SEE me ? Randy ? RANDY ? )

 

[John Barton]

My understanding is that some of the spots of those "world" 14.1 tournaments were reserved for the winners of open tournaments. To that extent there was a non-invitational path to entry. What was certainly lacking at that time was any attempt to get world participation in the event (unless Chenier from Canada counts as the rest of the world).

In the case of the current World 9-Ball Championships, I would not describe the entries as "invitational." Most of the players will be selected by the competitive rankings within their regions. That's not an arbitrary invitation, it is a selection process. I think the tournament organizer holds some number of "wild card" spots and the players chosen for those spots are pretty much his call, but I think that's fair considering what the organizer provides. I think that the WC9B organizer gets to pick perhaps 5-10% of the field. There are also several qualifiers at the site before the main event starts, so in theory any player who has been excluded otherwise has a shot. For some championships, the host country gets a few extra spots.

I hate to disagree with you Bob but on the idea that the promoter should be allowed to place players I do.

I do not think that Mercedes, Phillips, BMW, nor the actual promotion firms who stage the events get to insert players into professional tennis or golf events. I am pretty sure that at least for major events like Wimbledon there are no "wildcard" spots. However it could be that for lesser events that promoters do get such accords.

 

[!Smorgass Bored]

Honda Accord

I hate to disagree with you Bob but on the idea that the promoter should be allowed to place players I do.

I do not think that BMW, nor the actual promotion firms who stage the events get to insert players into professional tennis or golf events. However it could be that for lesser events that promoters do get such accords.

BMW doesn't have a say so, but HONDA does ? That doesn't seem fare to me.
D.

 

[dimes33]

Man, lots of drama around here these days. Just a few points:

NYC cue dude seems to be rubbing some people the wrong way but at least he's trying to promote something, anything, at a time when most of the pool halls seem to be struggling or going out of business. I think the 8 players only thing might be way back in the old days, but his point about them being invitationals is still valid.

Bob J. is too modest to state it but he was huge in getting some of the three cushion events in Las Vegas to happen. A room owner in Northern Cal mentioned Bob could sell every ticket for every day and still be guaranteed to lose thousands... some people are helping to keep the games alive and don't care about being patted on the back for it. They just love the game.

With the IPT failing, the $$ any world championship in pool offers is still not worth players travelling halfway around the world to compete in them. This ain't golf- 12th place doesn't pay 40 grand, it pays less than expenses probably.

Until a new movie comes out and drives average Joe into the halls again, or someone finally finds a way to promote an entertaining show (i.e. poker's success) on a major network, pool is going to remain at the level its basically at.

yes but would it not be just as easy to promote a true "open" event? i dont see why it wouldnt be.thats my problem with it,he could do things that are good for pool but he chooses to do what he wants to because "he can".the last thing the fragile pool world needs now is to be seperated into sides or groups by politics and personal feelings about others.

 

[John Barton]

Man, lots of drama around here these days. Just a few points:

NYC cue dude seems to be rubbing some people the wrong way but at least he's trying to promote something, anything, at a time when most of the pool halls seem to be struggling or going out of business. I think the 8 players only thing might be way back in the old days, but his point about them being invitationals is still valid.

Bob J. is too modest to state it but he was huge in getting some of the three cushion events in Las Vegas to happen. A room owner in Northern Cal mentioned Bob could sell every ticket for every day and still be guaranteed to lose thousands... some people are helping to keep the games alive and don't care about being patted on the back for it. They just love the game.

With the IPT failing, the $$ any world championship in pool offers is still not worth players travelling halfway around the world to compete in them. This ain't golf- 12th place doesn't pay 40 grand, it pays less than expenses probably.

Until a new movie comes out and drives average Joe into the halls again, or someone finally finds a way to promote an entertaining show (i.e. poker's success) on a major network, pool is going to remain at the level its basically at.

There is a big difference between promoting for the love of the game and promoting for your ego.

Bob Jewett doesn't come on here and tell us all about how he loses money on purpose and how much we should love him. He also doesn't call us little people and insinuate (or outright say) that we aren't as good as him because we don't have the wealth.

Trudeau was vilified by Randy Goldwater even though he essentially did the same thing - lost a bundle of money promoting the game. Randy opens himself up to the criticism by his own comments.

Randy is buying a "world championship" title "because he can" to use his own words. If the price of getting a little payday from him is swallowing our dignity and bowing to him then I say the price is too high.

 

[vagabond]

My sister/fiance would love to have you! I might introduce you to my aunt lucy bell owens...you know...my first wife. And golly gee, dont worry about one of dem fancy
Anybody else wanna come, just let me know.

QUOTE]

This is the BEST POST I READ ON AZB since it`s inception more than 6 years ago.Thanks for the laugh.
by the way I like to go out with your aunt Lucy bell Owens.

 

[dimes33]

My sister/fiance would love to have you! I might introduce you to my aunt lucy bell owens...you know...my first wife. And golly gee, dont worry about one of dem fancy
Anybody else wanna come, just let me know.

QUOTE]

This is the BEST POST I READ ON AZB since it`s inception more than 6 years ago.Thanks for the laugh.
by the way I like to go out with your aunt Lucy bell Owens.

sorry vega shes spoken for! me and her go way back like fire,the wheel and dirt

 

[vagabond]

sorry vega shes spoken for! me and her go way back like fire,the wheel and dirt

you are a bad boy,bad naughty boy and my people in Idaho will say you are a nasty, bad ,naughty boy.

 

[Roy Steffensen]

Why can't all of you people join your national federation and start change things then???

If you really want to stop Randy, then make sure to get in the board in the WPA.

Get in action and start working on those things!

Btw: Without Randy, there would be no 14-1 World Championship, without Matchroom Sport there would be no World 9-ball Championship with 400 000 $ pricemoney, broadcasted live on Sky.

My point is that I am not too satisfied with how things are done, but at least I have been trying to change it the way it should be done.

These commments and posts on here are just useful, and do no good.

In fact, I will try to no longer contribute on threads regarding issues like this. It's no point in arguing and discussing with people who prefer to sit back and complain.

 

[John Barton]

Why can't all of you people join your national federation and start change things then???

If you really want to stop Randy, then make sure to get in the board in the WPA.

Get in action and start working on those things!

Btw: Without Randy, there would be no 14-1 World Championship, without Matchroom Sport there would be no World 9-ball Championship with 400 000 $ pricemoney, broadcasted live on Sky.

My point is that I am not too satisfied with how things are done, but at least I have been trying to change it the way it should be done.

These commments and posts on here are just useful, and do no good.

In fact, I will try to no longer contribute on threads regarding issues like this. It's no point in arguing and discussing with people who prefer to sit back and complain.

1. Without Matchroom there would be a World Championship as there was before they came along. The prize money wasn't great but it wasn't tainted either.

Matchroom has done a great job. But please, they do it the way they want it done.

Before Matchroom took over the Men and Women and Juniors played side by side. I know, I was there and I presented the trophies.

2. Randy Goldwater could just have easily demanded that the 14.1 World Championships be without taint.


3. Accomplishing change is not as easy as "joining your national federation". You should know that Roy. To even get into any position where you could have the least impact politically would take YEARS of politicking. Far easier to be rich and buy yourself a "World Championship" than it is to effect change from within the existing structure (or lack of structure) in pool.

4. The point of boards like these are to gauge people's opinions. They are also a useful way to have people collectively think about a problem and suggest ways to make it better. Anyone who IS in a position to change things SHOULD be listening to the public and taking note of the good things that the fans come up with. As well they should note the things that the fans do NOT like.

5. The Money: I could be wrong but I think that a lot of people who point to the money that promoters bring are the same people who say that it's not about the money. If it's about the game then promoters should not be allowed to buy titles and play with the game as they see fit. Tennis players do not have to fade new rules and new qualification procedures at each event and year after year that are instituted by the promoters. Nor do pro golfers. The same people who vilified Kevin Trudeau because he was bullying people with his money are the same ones who stand up for promoters who bully with theirs.

6. Effecting Change: What exactly are you doing to effect change Roy? What is it that you want to change? How do you propose that people who do want to effect change can apply themselves? Other than a blanket admonition to join the national federation.

When I lived in Germany one had to be sent to the national group, the DBU , by the regional group, which was in turn staffed by the local groups. The representative of the DBU then had ONE seat on the EPBF board and from there came the opportunity to serve on the WPA's board. That's a lot of steps to get in a position to stop someone like Randy Goldwater from purchasing a "World Championship" title. And even IF I could get on the board of the WPA I would still be only one vote among 7. And frankly, to an underfunded and understaffed organization trying to keep pool alive ANY promoter's money in the form of sanctioning fees looks pretty good.

IF pool really did have any "governing body" that had any real power then it would be getting a dollar a week from all organized league players and be able to truly fund and govern pool worldwide and have championships that promoters would BID to put on.

Then there would be no need to rely on crumbs tossed out by promoters nor would we fans be expected to lick their bootstraps in gratitude. We would show our appreciation through supporting their events. Events held under one set of rules with the same stringent path to participation. Then the winners will have earned their titles and all the accolades that come with it without any controversy.

 

[JAM]

...IF pool really did have any "governing body" that had any real power then it would be getting a dollar a week from all organized league players and be able to truly fund and govern pool worldwide and have championships that promoters would BID to put on.

Then there would be no need to rely on crumbs tossed out by promoters nor would we fans be expected to lick their bootstraps in gratitude. We would show our appreciation through supporting their events. Events held under one set of rules with the same stringent path to participation. Then the winners will have earned their titles and all the accolades that come with it without any controversy.

What a great post! I am not sure if the NUTS is still in existence because I have not been out and about on the tournament trail, but wasn't there a unified effort of NUTS happening at one time with a few bucks taken out of entry fees at regional events? This is a step in the right direction, IMHO. It may only be a drop in the bucket, but it is a great idea.

JAM

 

[Ltldebbie]

yes but would it not be just as easy to promote a true "open" event? i dont see why it wouldnt be.thats my problem with it,he could do things that are good for pool but he chooses to do what he wants to because "he can".the last thing the fragile pool world needs now is to be seperated into sides or groups by politics and personal feelings about others.

Thank you Dimes. I couldn't have said it better. for the love of the game can't we all be nice?

 

[Scaramouche]

Take the title World Championship for what its worth and move on. Think about it like this...How many Japanese teams play in the World Series...let me think...NONE!

As a teacher of government, you have undoubtedly heard of Manifest Destiny - the U.S. divine right to determine what is a World Championship and who can compete for it

Unfortunately, in designating World Championships, U.S. pool has all the unity of Iraq, and as much corporate sponsorship.