Pattern-racking? Is there such a thing?

[The Chinchilla]

While we agree the rule is largely unenforceable, we apparently disagree on what to do about this. First off, you say "What may be random to one perhaps isn't random to another; the random rule potentially facilitates arguments". This is really besides the point because nowhere in the rule does it say anything about "random". What is says is:

"The other balls will be placed in the diamond without purposeful or intentional pattern.

This is pretty clear, we all know what it means.

You said that you don't think it's a good rule so we should all just fight fire with fire and learn how to do it. This is where I disagree with you. I don't believe we should only play by the rules we like and break the ones we don't like. Just because it is difficult to get caught to me is not a justifiable reason to get away with it. To my mind the proper way to deal with a rule like this that is difficult to enforce is to play with honor. I do believe knowledge of pattern racking is useful to have so you can take advantage of anything that exists in the rack legally and to detect if someone is doing it to you. Even if you can't prove it, it will tell you something about the character of the person you are playing, and that may be useful information.

The solution if you don't like the rule is to petition to have it changed.

I look back and now I see that I didn't mean to put words in your mouth.

Yeah, here's where we part. Let's take an example just for argument's sake. You're in some sort of dreamworld and playing pool for a living. All your peers are very good, and to feed your children you need to play well. If every player is able to put the balls in the rack and avoid some very subjective judgement about purposeful/intentional patterns, and you can't well, i'm sorry, i'd "get there" (this is where the fight fire with fire comes in). You're saying, I think, you wouldn't, and that's where we part. But I think you've got some great points and I totally see where you are coming from. In an ideal world, i'd 100% agree with you But really the whole problem here is you'd have to read somebody's thoughts to see the truth here. We all know you can't do that, so I don't see it as an infraction at all, one would have to SEE a true pattern for an infraction (and then again, how would you determine that?). Others see it differently, which is fine, yet they would be the ones without food in my above scenario.

I will also say that even though I erroneously used the term "random" in my first post, i still think this rule:

"The other balls will be placed in the diamond without purposeful or intentional pattern."

Is a VERY bad rule. Rules that are unenforceable are just not good rules in my estimation. It is like a "mind rule" and could possibly make the playing field uneven for many players because there are trying to do the right thing. So, again, for me, why not just get rid of the rule altogether. That is where the least amout of discrepency and unfairness lies... a rule that says put the one in the front, the 9 in the middle, and do whastever the hell you want with the rest. This would preculde arguments and unfairness!

 

[inside_english]

Yes it is a problem with patterning racking!!!! The last time i gambled with somebody with rack your own he racked them 1,2,3,4,5,9,6,7,8 in a diamond pattern.. Well he broke and ran two racks out the gate after a soft controlled break so... I told him no more rack your own and won the set.

The was one other time where I was palying in a pro event (which will remain nameless) where me and my opponent decide to rack our own after dealing with a bad racking area. Well guess what??? He racked the balls from 1-8 in the same manner and broke soft!!! Now normaly i would've said something but i figured if he had to result to pattern racking then he was worried... Therefore building my confidence. I just found it offensive to SO -CALLED cheat by pattern racking then just throw the balls in at random. I lost and it had nothing to do with the rack (he never tied racks together) but it was the act or DECISION to rack in a SO-CALLED cheating or racking PATTERN.

Yes it is true... on softer breaks with the balls in certain positions in 9-ball you can control the way the balls lay on the break.

Corey Deuel is the MAIN reason for the BREAK rule!!! No soft breaks is because of Corey. Im pretty sure it was Billiard Digest that showed 10 or more of Corey's breaks where the balls ended up almost in the same exact positions on EVERY rack. Remember!!! ALMOST the exact position!!!

This is why in most tournaments they have a now soft break rule

All in all anybody that racks the rack 1-8 can be seen as a cheater BUT!!!!!.... If its rack your own you cant complain now can you?? Just out play the bastard... Win and kick him in straight in his balls and tell him to go "F" himself :thumbup2:

Ok, let me be clear.

I am talking about pattern-racking...NOT soft-breaking.

In this instance the person who was accused of this has a reputation for breaking the balls very hard. So, why bother pattern racking if he relinquishes control with a very hard break?

 

[inside_english]

WOW, talk about beating a dead horse??

If the repetitive nature of this thread bothers you so much then don't read it!

 

[SUPERSTAR]

Anyone who doubts the advantage that pattern racking can give someone, needs to go watch the Donnie Mills vs SVB match.
Watching that match should put an end to ANY debate about pattern racking.

If you have doubts after watching that match, there is seriously something wrong with you.

Donnie is not crushing the balls and he is not hitting them like a sissy either.

He hits them the right speed to make the wing ball and leave himself a starting shot on the 1, with the rest of the balls in the general location that he expects them to be in.

 

[Paul Schofield]

I started a thread some time ago on this subject and it received more than 10,000 hits and 260 replies. If you are really interested in this topic, the thread, in its entirety, is a good read.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=201377&highlight=schofield

Pattern racking is part of the chicanery of the racking and breaking process that we have embraced. Pattern racking is cheating. If permitted, it inserts all kinds of new issues and problems with our games.

 

[OneIron]

Is a VERY bad rule. Rules that are unenforceable are just not good rules in my estimation. It is like a "mind rule" and could possibly make the playing field uneven for many players because there are trying to do the right thing. So, again, for me, why not just get rid of the rule altogether. That is where the least amout of discrepency and unfairness lies... a rule that says put the one in the front, the 9 in the middle, and do whastever the hell you want with the rest. This would preculde arguments and unfairness!

I play in a local scratch league which doesn't allow BIH. They used to have a rule which said you must make an attempt to make the ball. Of course, everyone abused the rule to the point of playing straight rollouts. Now it reads you must make an attempt to hit the ball. Still a "mind rule" but slightly better. I've tried many times to get the rule changed to BIH but no luck. :frown:

 

[RunoutJJ]

Ok, let me be clear.

I am talking about pattern-racking...NOT soft-breaking.

In this instance the person who was accused of this has a reputation for breaking the balls very hard. So, why bother pattern racking if he relinquishes control with a very hard break?

The soft break has to do with pattern racking. When you hit the rack soft the balls spread out in a certain pattern. Therefore arranging the balls in a certain pattern for your opponent to shoot over and over again.

Corey Deuel use to do this. Im pretty sur esomebody will post it up.

 

[sheffield6]

have a few playing cards with different rack patterns. one of you picks a card and that is the pattern you stick to. rack your own, but both stick to that pattern

 

[Black-Balled]

..perfectly when I typed them, but the forum software crammed them together. Not my fault.)

Always someone else's problem!!??!! hahaha

O/T:
I may or may not have rack secrets that I may or may not believe may or may not be helpful to me or may or may not be harmful to my opponent. Maybe.

Can't say for sure.

 

[dannyb78]

The rack is one of the biggest parts of any game, I would bet that almost know one that plays rotation pool, throws the balls in the rack and pays zero attention where the balls are.


There are books on racking and videos. When I started playing pool many moon ago, either Mike Segal or Robert Byrn had a Video about puting the two and three behind the one ball. So they might go up table. I dont remember the details. But racking techniques have been around for ages. Since Corey and Donnie Mills have taking it to the next level there is alot more attention payed to the rack. Everyone has the same oppertunity to rack the balls how they want if they are playing rack your own. If you are playing rack for each other, then you dont have to worry.


This sounds like a classic case of good players losing matches they believe they are supposed to win, after losing, they search for reasons of why they lost

 

[AtLarge]

... But really the whole problem here is you'd have to read somebody's thoughts to see the truth here. ...

In a rack-your-own tournament, I played a guy who, when he racked, would pull out a piece of paper with a diagram of where to place the balls. I didn't need to read his mind!

 

[The Chinchilla]

In a rack-your-own tournament, I played a guy who, when he racked, would pull out a piece of paper with a diagram of where to place the balls. I didn't need to read his mind!

Haha, great story.

Yeah, I think pattern racking is like being a magician. I mean the rules have made it so the "good guy" has the disadvantage, so you've gotta be a magician too if you wanna keep up. Throw the balls in there just right, roll em up, break em.... and the fact that the 1 2 3 4 5 are uptable, and the 6 7 8 9 downtable is... well, magic.

 

[The Chinchilla]

I started a thread some time ago on this subject and it received more than 10,000 hits and 260 replies. If you are really interested in this topic, the thread, in its entirety, is a good read.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=201377&highlight=schofield

Pattern racking is part of the chicanery of the racking and breaking process that we have embraced. Pattern racking is cheating. If permitted, it inserts all kinds of new issues and problems with our games.

I think it is more appropriate to say pattern racking penalties are not enforceable. So, if my opponent is breaking an unenforceable rule, where does that leave me? Answer is "in a very unfair position."

I don't see one single solitary problem with 1 in front, 9 in middle, and the rest where the racker wants. If things become too easy, simply just change rotation games. This really isn't a problem needing rocket scientists attention.

BTW I personally liked your random rack ideas, but just don't know how that technique would catch on, for whatever reason. I'm in favor of fair pool, and the above rule change is the only one that makes any sense to me.

 

[walrus_3d]

pattern racking in the APA

Hey all, I'm going to respond to a couple comments in here, sorry for not quoting anybody.

There are definitely bar and league players who pay attention to how the balls are racked in 9 ball. The APA even put out its own "pattern" of the 'fairest' rack about a year ago:
__1
_5_3
6_9_7
_2_4
__8

You're allowed to pattern rack in the APA because you're also required to break "as hard as you can with control." The pattern rack only helps you if you break softly enough to maintain the pattern. If your opponents complain that you're not breaking hard enough, you can be censured or disqualified for cheating. Whenever people actually report it, there's a quick response.

That brings me to my other point. If you think someone's cheating, report them. I read so many threads and hear so many complaints about someone cheating, but the complainant never does anything effective to either catch them in the process or fix it after the fact.

Anyway if someone's racking 9 ball and obviously placing particular balls in particular places other than the 1 and 9, they're pattern racking. If they're placing the 1 and 9 and pushing the rest of the rack together, they're not pattern racking. It really is easier to identify than people make it out to be.

 

[inside_english]

The rack is one of the biggest parts of any game, I would bet that almost know one that plays rotation pool, throws the balls in the rack and pays zero attention where the balls are.


There are books on racking and videos. When I started playing pool many moon ago, either Mike Segal or Robert Byrn had a Video about puting the two and three behind the one ball. So they might go up table. I dont remember the details. But racking techniques have been around for ages. Since Corey and Donnie Mills have taking it to the next level there is alot more attention payed to the rack. Everyone has the same oppertunity to rack the balls how they want if they are playing rack your own. If you are playing rack for each other, then you dont have to worry.


This sounds like a classic case of good players losing matches they believe they are supposed to win, after losing, they search for reasons of why they lost.[/QUOTE]

Exactly!!!!!!!

 

[dannyb78]

Thank you sir

 

[the420trooper]

Yes it is a problem with patterning racking!!!! The last time i gambled with somebody with rack your own he racked them 1,2,3,4,5,9,6,7,8 in a diamond pattern.. Well he broke and ran two racks out the gate after a soft controlled break so... I told him no more rack your own and won the set.


(snip)

All in all anybody that racks the rack 1-8 can be seen as a cheater BUT!!!!!.... If its rack your own you cant complain now can you?? Just out play the bastard... Win and kick him in straight in his balls and tell him to go "F" himself :thumbup2:

Ha. Ha. Ha. :thumbup:

Gotta love consistency.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Actually this discussion has nothing to do with looking for an excuse, at least not to me because it has not happened in my experience. It is about one's feelings about either playing by the rules or not. If a player is OK with either them or their opponent breaking the rules, that's fine for them. No problem, do what you think is OK and I'll do what I think is right.

As far as playing a match against someone who pattern racks against me without my agreeing to it up front, I'll say this much. I'm not going to pattern rack back at them, I'm going to play by the rules. But they better win that first set because when it's over I'd feel perfectly justified unscrewing, win or lose. If the guy wants to call me a nit for pulling up after winning the first set, that's fine with me. Wouldn't bother me at all to be called a nit by a cheater.

BTW, I disagree that you don't have to worry if you are playing opponent rack. It's just as simple to rack the balls unfavorably for the opponent as it is to rack them favorably for yourself.

------

I look back and now I see that I didn't mean to put words in your mouth.

Yeah, here's where we part. Let's take an example just for argument's sake. You're in some sort of dreamworld and playing pool for a living. All your peers are very good, and to feed your children you need to play well. If every player is able to put the balls in the rack and avoid some very subjective judgement about purposeful/intentional patterns, and you can't well, i'm sorry, i'd "get there" (this is where the fight fire with fire comes in). You're saying, I think, you wouldn't, and that's where we part. But I think you've got some great points and I totally see where you are coming from. In an ideal world, i'd 100% agree with you But really the whole problem here is you'd have to read somebody's thoughts to see the truth here. We all know you can't do that, so I don't see it as an infraction at all, one would have to SEE a true pattern for an infraction (and then again, how would you determine that?). Others see it differently, which is fine, yet they would be the ones without food in my above scenario.

I will also say that even though I erroneously used the term "random" in my first post, i still think this rule:

"The other balls will be placed in the diamond without purposeful or intentional pattern."

Is a VERY bad rule. Rules that are unenforceable are just not good rules in my estimation. It is like a "mind rule" and could possibly make the playing field uneven for many players because there are trying to do the right thing. So, again, for me, why not just get rid of the rule altogether. That is where the least amout of discrepency and unfairness lies... a rule that says put the one in the front, the 9 in the middle, and do whastever the hell you want with the rest. This would preculde arguments and unfairness!

Chinchilla, I agree the rule has it's problems due to the fact that is it almost impossible to prove beyond where a player can't deny it. It would probably be better off if they changed it. But as of right now, it is still a rule whether a good one or a bad one.

As for your scenario about playing pro pool, that is a tough one. If I was in that world, I might feel differently even though as I stated above, in my real world I would not pattern rack in response to it being done to me. But in pro pool many players, perhaps even the majority of them, do pattern rack. At that level no one is getting over on anyone else. They all know it when they see it and they all either do it back or fade it. It is perhaps something of an unsaid thing that is accepted. I do know that pros pretty much hate the luck in 9 Ball and in their world perhaps pattern racking is accepted because they feel it takes away some of the luck in the game, especially in short races. Good question though and it is a tough one. But certainly at the professional level no one is trying to get over on their opponent so perhaps that's a special animal. I don't know for sure why it seems to be OK, but it does seem to be more accepted at that level. At least I've never seen a professional complain to an official about it, and I'm quite sure if I noticed it going on so did they.

Let me give you a different scenario, not just for you but really I'd like get a response from anyone that wishes to post their answer. You're in a local tournament using WPA rules and your using your favored pattern to rack the balls. After several racks your opponent protests, calls over the TD and tells him your pattern racking. The TD asks you if you are. What do you say, yes or no?

 

[The Chinchilla]

Actually this discussion has nothing to do with looking for an excuse, at least not to me because it has not happened in my experience. It is about one's feelings about either playing by the rules or not. If a player is OK with either them or their opponent breaking the rules, that's fine for them. No problem, do what you think is OK and I'll do what I think is right.

As far as playing a match against someone who pattern racks against me without my agreeing to it up front, I'll say this much. I'm not going to pattern rack back at them, I'm going to play by the rules. But they better win that first set because when it's over I'd feel perfectly justified unscrewing, win or lose. If the guy wants to call me a nit for pulling up after winning the first set, that's fine with me. Wouldn't bother me at all to be called a nit by a cheater.

BTW, I disagree that you don't have to worry if you are playing opponent rack. It's just as simple to rack the balls unfavorably for the opponent as it is to rack them favorably for yourself.

------



Chinchilla, I agree the rule has it's problems due to the fact that is it almost impossible to prove beyond where a player can't deny it. It would probably be better off if they changed it. But as of right now, it is still a rule whether a good one or a bad one.

As for your scenario about playing pro pool, that is a tough one. If I was in that world, I might feel differently even though as I stated above, in my real world I would not pattern rack in response to it being done to me. But in pro pool many players, perhaps even the majority of them, do pattern rack. At that level no one is getting over on anyone else. They all know it when they see it and they all either do it back or fade it. It is perhaps something of an unsaid thing that is accepted. I do know that pros pretty much hate the luck in 9 Ball and in their world perhaps pattern racking is accepted because they feel it takes away some of the luck in the game, especially in short races. Good question though and it is a tough one. But certainly at the professional level no one is trying to get over on their opponent so perhaps that's a special animal. I don't know for sure why it seems to be OK, but it does seem to be more accepted at that level. At least I've never seen a professional complain to an official about it, and I'm quite sure if I noticed it going on so did they.

Let me give you a different scenario, not just for you but really I'd like get a response from anyone that wishes to post their answer. You're in a local tournament using WPA rules and your using your favored pattern to rack the balls. After several racks your opponent protests, calls over the TD and tells him your pattern racking. The TD asks you if you are. What do you say, yes or no?

OOh, this question would make me uncomfortable, that must make it a good one. Let me answer your question like this (notice nobody ever answers yes or no questions with a yes or no): if somebody told me they'd give me a million dollars if i could walk 10 feet and not think about bananas, i'd walk the 10 feet. At the end the guy would say, did you think about bananas? I'd say "Como? que es un 'banana'?" I think things that go on in my head are private, and we need to keep them as such many times. When enforcing pool rules comes down to "what were you thinking when..." I think we have gone in the wrong direction. What is pattern racking anyway? I didn't think there was such a thing

 

[Cuefan]

A good thread. As noted, this can be a heated topic in Maryland tournaments.

Texas Express, BCA, WPA, and APA 9-ball rack rules listed below. Please correct any incorrect links. It appears APA are the only rules that allow pattern racking.

Also, how to handle a player wanting to use the Magic Ball Rack or similar device? These freeze all balls so that the wing ball goes on the break almost every time. If the racker also racks the balls in a pattern to produce somewhat predictable ball locations, this might be enough of an advantage to require alternate breaks.

A possible solution is to announce the following at the player’s meeting:

1) State the rules to be used (WPA/BCA, Texas Express, APA, etc.)
2) Specifically state yes or no on pattern racking. If yes, players rack as they wish other than 1 and 9 balls. If no, announce that “random” or “without purposeful or intentional pattern” means throwing all balls toward the top of the rack as they come out of the ball return and then moving the 1 to the front and 9 in the middle.
3) State how many balls must strike a rail for a legal break
4) State if Magic Ball Racks or similar are permitted
5) State if winner breaks (and if rack your own or loser racks) or alternate breaks

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Texas Express rules from http://www.sevy.ca/Texas_Express_AN.pdf:

2.1: Racking The numbered balls are racked in a diamond shape with the one (1) ball (or substituted lowest numbered ball) placed at the top of the diamond on the table's foot spot. The nine (9) ball is placed in the center of the diamond. The remaining seven balls are racked in random order surrounding the nine ball as tightly as possible. This tight position is called "touching," or "frozen."


BCA and WPA rules from http://home.bca-pool.com/associations/7744/files/GeneralRules_January2008.pdf. The BCA link goes to the WPA rules:

2.2 Nine Ball Rack
The object balls are racked as tightly as possible in a diamond shape, with the one ball at the apex of the diamond and on the foot spot and the nine ball in the middle of the diamond. The other balls will be placed in the diamond without purposeful or intentional pattern. (See Regulation 4, Racking / Tapping of Balls.)

4. Racking / Tapping of Balls 
A table is said to be “tapped” when a template is placed in the rack area, balls are placed in the holes in the template and are tapped into place. This procedure replaces the use of the traditional triangle rack, and ensures a quick, tight rack. The choice of tapping over traditional racking with a triangle is at the discretion of the event organizer. Players must never tap balls; only tournament officials should tap or re-tap (if needed) the racking area.
For further information about tapping and the templates, contact the WPA Sports Director.


APA rules from http://www.poolplayers.com/m/teammanual/9-ball-game-rules.html:

3. RACKING
Nine balls are used and are racked in a diamond shape. The 1-ball is at the front of the rack and on the foot spot. The 9-ball is in the center and the rest of the object balls can be placed in any numerical order.
Note 1: When using coin-operated tables, save some money by using all the balls in the event of a short game. Example: If the 3-ball and 9-ball are made on the break, the balls are reracked (because a 9-on-the-Break is a winner) using the 10-ball and 11-ball. The object ball sequence in the next game is 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11. The 11-ball, in effect, is the "9-ball" (last ball) in this game. Do not say the 10-ball replaces the 3-ball; it is too confusing. Shoot the balls in numerical order.
Note 2: The breaker can demand that the lowest available nine balls be used each game.