Piloted joint ?

[whammo57]

I see other cue makers putting on a piloted joint. My question is ....WHY?? Does it actually have a value? A flat faced joint seems to work just fine. All the piloted joints I have seen have been 5/16-18 with a brass insert in the shaft. It seems that the brass insert is just left sticking out with epoxy or wood or both under the ring on the top of the insert. It looks ugly.... (my opinion and thoughts).............. personally, I see no value.

anyone want to beat me up ???? LOL

Kim

 

[cuejo]

I see other cue makers putting on a piloted joint. My question is ....WHY?? Does it actually have a value? A flat faced joint seems to work just fine. All the piloted joints I have seen have been 5/16-18 with a brass insert in the shaft. It seems that the brass insert is just left sticking out with epoxy or wood or both under the ring on the top of the insert. It looks ugly.... (my opinion and thoughts).............. personally, I see no value.

anyone want to beat me up ???? LOL

Kim

Lol
When I used to do pilots,
I would bore the shaft so the insert would be countersunk a small amount....
Just so a cue tech could flat face it later if required and still have a solid chunk of brass there.
Probably a dumb move but, meh whatever.
I have since gone to 3/8-10 g-10 pins exclusively in playing cues.

 

[NY9912]

deleted - 7/25/2020

 

[Paul Dayton]

Actually on top end cues with piloted shafts, the brass part of the nipple doesn't touch the inside of the joint but the wooden part of the nipple, which started out a few thousandths of an inch bigger than the hole in the joint collar, is compressed into the collar and tightly centers the shaft on the butt. You can feel this when screwing them together. Most piloted shafts don't do this.

 

[whammo57]

Actually on top end cues with piloted shafts, the brass part of the nipple doesn't touch the inside of the joint but the wooden part of the nipple, which started out a few thousandths of an inch bigger than the hole in the joint collar, is compressed into the collar and tightly centers the shaft on the butt. You can feel this when screwing them together. Most piloted shafts don't do this.

Ok.... I have never seen one that really was a tight fit......most I have seen don't even touch...... I suppose if it really pressed into a receiver it would strengthen the joint......... I will stick with flat faced and a big pin.

Kim

 

[Poke_N_Hope]

I think the pilot concept is sound...as a method to provide more surface area at the joint for strength, feel, etc... It is true that most inserts don't fit tight...depleting this concept. I think one if the best joint designs ever is the Schuler joint...they took this pilot and interlocking concept to a new level.

However, I think the benefits are minimal anymore...and the concept of the pilot is (as previously stated) tradition...and even more so machines can install the inserts to the same depth every time....not for cue performance.

 

[conetip]

I am sure you will find that the true intent of the pilot was for the radial alignment of the shaft to the handle, while the thread was only to pull the 2 halves together.
It also ment that if the threads were not 100%, the cue would still come together as intended.
Most pilot stuff I have seen have quite loose threads and require the pilot to align.
Now days, most threads are quite neat fitting and do both the radial alignment and the clamping of the 2 pieces.
If you bend a pin for what ever reason, requires the pin to be replaced or else the cue does not correctly join together.
Me, I prefer a real pilot setup, where the pilot is a nice fit between the 2 pieces and the threads are loose like in a nut and bolt.

 

[JoeyInCali]

I am sure you will find that the true intent of the pilot was for the radial alignment of the shaft to the handle, while the thread was only to pull the 2 halves together.
It also ment that if the threads were not 100%, the cue would still come together as intended.
Most pilot stuff I have seen have quite loose threads and require the pilot to align.
Now days, most threads are quite neat fitting and do both the radial alignment and the clamping of the 2 pieces.
If you bend a pin for what ever reason, requires the pin to be replaced or else the cue does not correctly join together.
Me, I prefer a real pilot setup, where the pilot is a nice fit between the 2 pieces and the threads are loose like in a nut and bolt.

I always thought it was there to take care of the side to side load.
It acts as a tenon to the threads.

 

[Vahmurka]

one of the best joints for Russian pyramid cues is like this one:



The pin is in the shaft, the pilot is in the butt. Traditionally it's made this way.

 

[scdiveteam]

I think the pilot concept is sound...as a method to provide more surface area at the joint for strength, feel, etc... It is true that most inserts don't fit tight...depleting this concept. I think one if the best joint designs ever is the Schuler joint...they took this pilot and interlocking concept to a new level.

However, I think the benefits are minimal anymore...and the concept of the pilot is (as previously stated) tradition...and even more so machines can install the inserts to the same depth every time....not for cue performance.

Hi,

I agree the Ray's joint is the best joint design ever because the aspect ratio of wood to wood at the joint is very lage with the small aluminum piloted configuration.

The concentricity is spot on because the shafts are driven with the dead center on the pilot ID when turning and the x taper is always perfectly concentric with centerline of the threads.

All Schuler shafts fit all Schuler butts very nicely.

Rick

 

[ronscuba]

Mezz united joint. It feels very tight when screwing together and the cues feels one piece when playing.

 

[cuetips1000]

I think one variant of the piloted joint is the conical joint made by Layani. General idea is to enhance the surface area between shaft and butt for a more solid hit.

 

[SouthernDraw]

In the mid 90s I bought a cheap Viking because I liked the joint. I figured it would make the cue a good breaker. It was double threaded. The insert was threaded on inside and outside. And the stainless steel joint collar was threaded on the inside. They made double threaded joints later, but they were threaded differently.

I'm not sure exactly what led me to think this joint would enhance my break, looking back at it. But I did break as well with it as I break with the dedicated break cues today, but that's only because my break stinks.

 

[Ernie eyocues]

my opinion only

Pilot joint


All of the following is my two cents, and my opinion. Most of what I have to say as already been said. But I do have some thoughts.

I believe the pilot joint was designed to help center the shaft and butt. I use this concept using a 3/8-16 pin. As mentioned early the finer the threads gives more compression for the same applied torque. Friction is not your friend when you want to compress the two faces since the torque is used to overcome the friction. Lubricating the threads helps. Also, as long as the pilot doesn’t bottom out, then more of the compression is located on the outer edge. I believe loading up the outside edge makes the cue stiffer instead of squeezing the soft wood around the pin, like in a flat face design. If the faces are slightly dished so the outside edge makes contact first then more of the compression will on that edge. Since I make hardwood threaded inserts for my pilot they will expand because of the hoop loads generated by the threads, this caused the pilot to expand into the pilot hole for a tighter fit. Hoop load are created because of the angle of the threads. When you tighten the joint the threads pull the parts together and apply a radial force outward due to the thread angle.

All of the above is crap. But it might work “in my opinion”.

 

[Ernie eyocues]

just another opinon

I screwup again and posted it in the wrong place hopefully this will find the right place.

Pilot joint


All of the following is my two cents, and my opinion. Most of what I have to say as already been said. But I do have some thoughts.

I believe the pilot joint was designed to help center the shaft and butt. I use this concept using a 3/8-16 pin. As mentioned early the finer the threads gives more compression for the same applied torque. Friction is not your friend when you want to compress the two faces since the torque is used to overcome the friction. Lubricating the threads helps. Also, as long as the pilot doesn’t bottom out, then more of the compression is located on the outer edge. I believe loading up the outside edge makes the cue stiffer instead of squeezing the soft wood around the pin, like in a flat face design. If the faces are slightly dished so the outside edge makes contact first then more of the compression will on that edge. Since I make hardwood threaded inserts for my pilot they will expand because of the hoop loads generated by the threads, this caused the pilot to expand into the pilot hole for a tighter fit. Hoop load are created because of the angle of the threads. When you tighten the joint the threads pull the parts together and apply a radial force outward due to the thread angle.

All of the above is crap. But it might work “in my opinion”.