Pivot point on a shaft?

SCCues

SCCues

< Searing Twins
Silver Member
I'm a LD shaft user, but I'd like to learn about "back hand English" and go back to regular shafts if I can learn this technique. I used to play with a friend who I think used this method and he tortured me many times playing 9 ball. I didn't know about "BHE" when we played each other and now he's moved to another city so I can't ask him for help.

My question is "how do you determine the pivot point on a shaft"? I tried to use "BHE", but I had no idea where the pivot point was on my shaft. I've always struggled with deflection and how to compensate for it and that's how I ended up playing with LD shafts. I really prefer the hit of a solid maple shaft over my "LD" shaft so I'm very interested in learning "BHE".

James
 
Adjust your bridge length till you hit the exact spot you're aiming at with English. That's the pivot point.
 
Here's a video explaining this. The explanation of measuring pivot point comes at about 3:10 in the video, but I'd recommend viewing the whole thing--it's less than 5 minutes.
 
brechbt said:
Here's a video explaining this. The explanation of measuring pivot point comes at about 3:10 in the video, but I'd recommend viewing the whole thing--it's less than 5 minutes.
Click to expand...
A major point to note is that the point you need to pivot around (often the length of your bridge) depends on the length of shot (between cue ball and object ball), the speed you shoot at, whether you use draw or follow in addition to the side spin, and the condition of the cloth. I think that most people who use BHE compensate for those things automatically, although the cloth thing is hard to learn for people who always play under the same conditions.
 
Thanks for all the responses and the suggestions. I'm going to give BHE another try to see if I have better luck this time than I did the first time I tried it.

James
 
The way i do it is I set up a two foot shot into the corner, with the object ball only about two inches from the pocket, and you are shooting a full ball hit. Line up the shot, pivot for your english, and shoot. If your pivot point is correct, it will result in a stop shot. If it does not, change your pivot length and try again. It does not take long to get it.

Mr. Jewett,

I did not realise that the length of the shot affected the pivot. I knew that speed could affect the shot, but I did not know that the distance between the object ball and cue ball did. Thank you for that valuable information. This is why I love AZB!

Braden
 
James,

it doesn not really matter with shaft you re playin. no matter if it s ld or a nicley oldgrowth shaft- in both cases it s the same, even if you use bhe or stepping into the shot already aligned to give english. In both ways you have to know how to handle your material.

Each shaft has deflection-one got less ,one got more.
If you re going to change after years of using a shaft, it will take some time become 100% *sure* with it.

keep shooting.)

lg
Ingo
 
LD shafts make the difference

After struggling with english for years it all came together like magic when I bought my first Predator 314 shaft. They are way more forgiving balancing deflection and squirt over a much wider range of speed, distance and pivot point than any solid maple shaft. I simply cannot achieve the consistency and accompanying confidence with any solid shaft.
 
Bob, I've found there are easy ways to compensate for most of those items...

Bob Jewett said:
A major point to note is that the point you need to pivot around (often the length of your bridge) depends on the length of shot (between cue ball and object ball), the speed you shoot at, whether you use draw or follow in addition to the side spin, and the condition of the cloth. I think that most people who use BHE compensate for those things automatically, although the cloth thing is hard to learn for people who always play under the same conditions.
Click to expand...

The vast majority of shots require no additional compensation if you do a few things...

First, for putting draw and follow elevate and lower your bridge so that the cue is as parallel to the table bed as possible. This reduces swerve and limits the amount of adjusting you need.

Second, If you're going to hit REALLY hard or REALLY soft, you'll have to adjust your aim accordingly, and this you'll have to feel.

Personally, I have found no problem using BHE for longer shots or close shots and I can demonstrate these if anyone would like. If you don't have a level cue, then swerve comes more into play and you will have to adjust for distance between shots though...

Jaden
 
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BradenK said:
... I did not realise that the length of the shot affected the pivot. I knew that speed could affect the shot, but I did not know that the distance between the object ball and cue ball did. ...
Click to expand...
A brief note about the reason... If you use side spin, the cue ball will curve after it leaves the cue tip. The curve will continue as long as the cue ball is not rolling smoothly on the cloth*. As long as the cue ball is curving, the angle from the original cue ball location to the current cue ball location is also changing -- that is, the cue ball must be moving left-to-right or right-to-left across your field of view. This is very, very basic physics and is easily observed on the table. So, among other things, this means that if you play with draw and actually get draw to the object ball, the cue ball is curving the whole way. Clearly, if object ball is nearer or farther for such a shot you have to change your aim if you want to hit the shot accurately.

But even if the cue ball stops curving and starts rolling smoothly in a straight line, the angle keeps changing because the straight line the cue ball is moving along at the end does not pass through the original location of the cue ball when you struck it. It is pretty simple geometry to show that the angle continues to change under those conditions.

As I said before, many people who use BHE compensate subconsciously for all of these effects, which are often much smaller than the basic squirt compensation you get from BHE. Sometimes they don't believe they are compensating, but they must be if they hit the object ball accurately.

That such effects exist shows that any system that claims to help with aiming side spin shots is probably not accurate without subconscious adjustments. I know of no aiming system that includes the stickiness of the cloth which in turn determines how tight or wide the curving portion of the path is.

(* By "rolling smoothly" I mean, as always, that the cue ball has top spin that matches its speed, but I also mean that any masse is gone. Usually that will happen when the cue ball has the right amount of top spin.)
 
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SCCues said:
I'm a LD shaft user, but I'd like to learn about "back hand English" and go back to regular shafts if I can learn this technique. I used to play with a friend who I think used this method and he tortured me many times playing 9 ball. I didn't know about "BHE" when we played each other and now he's moved to another city so I can't ask him for help.

My question is "how do you determine the pivot point on a shaft"? I tried to use "BHE", but I had no idea where the pivot point was on my shaft. I've always struggled with deflection and how to compensate for it and that's how I ended up playing with LD shafts. I really prefer the hit of a solid maple shaft over my "LD" shaft so I'm very interested in learning "BHE".

James
Click to expand...


A couple of points, as I understand (or do not understand) things:

An average maple shaft is going to have a pivot point at around 10". Despite the things that happen after the ball leaves the cue (would these not be the same regardless of cue type?), you get the best deal if you bridge at the pivot point.

If you bridge in front of the pivot point and want to minimize squirt, you need to use a combination of front and back hand english to get the same effect as bridging at the pivot point. When bridging in front of the pivot point the front hand shift is in the direction of the english (i.e., right english, shift front hand to the right). When bridging behind the pivot point, the front hand component is to the opposite side.

When using an LD shaft, you will likely always be bridging in front of the pivot point, which is probably at about 17". So to optimize performance, a combination of FHE (to the side of the tip contact with the CB) along with BHE is needed. Therefore, pure BHE with an LD shaft is inadvisable, IMO.

With a standard maple shaft, if you stray far from the pivot point, results will degrade unless you use a combination of FHE, BHE.
 
Jaden said:
The vast majority of shots require no additional compensation if you do a few things...

First, for putting draw and follow elevate and lower your bridge so that the cue is as parallel to the table bed as possible. This reduces swerve and limits the amount of adjusting you need.

Second, If you're going to hit REALLY hard or REALLY soft, you'll have to adjust your aim accordingly, and this you'll have to feel.

Personally, I have found no problem using BHE for longer shots or close shots and I can demonstrate these if anyone would like. If you don't have a level cue, then swerve comes more into play and you will have to adjust for distance between shots though...

Jaden
Click to expand...

I tend to not adjust for anything expect slow rollers as well using BHE...

Distance doesn't really come into play for me either but I am usually speed sensitive to the distances and I use a little dose of upstroke to try and deal with squirt and not swerve.....
 
I don't understand a word of this. I've looked at the odd video etc, but it looks, well, fishy to me.

I started out with an ordinary maple shaft and didn't notice deflection. I used a Predator for a while and noticed no deflection (obviously). I've gone back to an ordinary shaft recently and don't notice deflection, except on certain power shots when I'm digging into the ball on cut shots.

It's all about feel. I must adjust subconsciously. Pool isn't science, it's art.
 
As I described in my video....

Not Dead Ted said:
A couple of points, as I understand (or do not understand) things:

An average maple shaft is going to have a pivot point at around 10". Despite the things that happen after the ball leaves the cue (would these not be the same regardless of cue type?), you get the best deal if you bridge at the pivot point.

If you bridge in front of the pivot point and want to minimize squirt, you need to use a combination of front and back hand english to get the same effect as bridging at the pivot point. When bridging in front of the pivot point the front hand shift is in the direction of the english (i.e., right english, shift front hand to the right). When bridging behind the pivot point, the front hand component is to the opposite side.

When using an LD shaft, you will likely always be bridging in front of the pivot point, which is probably at about 17". So to optimize performance, a combination of FHE (to the side of the tip contact with the CB) along with BHE is needed. Therefore, pure BHE with an LD shaft is inadvisable, IMO.

With a standard maple shaft, if you stray far from the pivot point, results will degrade unless you use a combination of FHE, BHE.
Click to expand...


As I decribed in the video I posted in the other thread, it doesn't matter where you bridge per se, it only matters that you pivot at the cues pivot point. sometimes you can't bridge at the pivot point, so you can line up the shot while balancing the cue at the pivot point and then while maintaining that line, slide your bridge forward or backward as you require or desire and it should be accurate.

Jaden
 
yes, by what you're saying...

TheThaiger said:
I don't understand a word of this. I've looked at the odd video etc, but it looks, well, fishy to me.

I started out with an ordinary maple shaft and didn't notice deflection. I used a Predator for a while and noticed no deflection (obviously). I've gone back to an ordinary shaft recently and don't notice deflection, except on certain power shots when I'm digging into the ball on cut shots.

It's all about feel. I must adjust subconsciously. Pool isn't science, it's art.
Click to expand...

You're obviously a feel player, good for you if you can play lights out as a feel player.

If you can't though, you may want to try an aiming system in conjunction with BHE and see how it works for you...

Jaden
 
SCCues said:
I'm a LD shaft user, but I'd like to learn about "back hand English" and go back to regular shafts if I can learn this technique. I used to play with a friend who I think used this method and he tortured me many times playing 9 ball. I didn't know about "BHE" when we played each other and now he's moved to another city so I can't ask him for help.

My question is "how do you determine the pivot point on a shaft"? I tried to use "BHE", but I had no idea where the pivot point was on my shaft. I've always struggled with deflection and how to compensate for it and that's how I ended up playing with LD shafts. I really prefer the hit of a solid maple shaft over my "LD" shaft so I'm very interested in learning "BHE".

James
Click to expand...

If this is for real and not a joke, my reply would be to go to a pool hall and determine that for yourself.
 
Jaden said:
You're obviously a feel player, good for you if you can play lights out as a feel player.

If you can't though, you may want to try an aiming system in conjunction with BHE and see how it works for you...

Jaden
Click to expand...

I can't understand them. :(
 
I personally use BHE. I didn't know it when I started but I learned it subconsciously when I was younger. I think Mr Jewett is correct about about the sub conscious tendencies. I would go 2 steps further... one, that the person may not realize that they make these adjustments. And two, that to perfect this, you must start at a young age. When you are able to pick up things like this quickly and it be ingrained in your mind deeply. This is also why I think great players are poor teachers... they learned at a young age and they do so many things sub-consciously.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
 
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