Pivoting systems and their relationship to CTE

[LAMas]

I've mentioned how the angles crowd together in the last quarter of the cue ball and I've been looking for a good picture to describe it. The only thing I can find is something off an old analog computing device, the S scale of a slide rule. It's the bottom row of lines on the body of the rule.

The black lines are the sine values mapped to a straight line, like a cue ball radius for instance. The values are linear to a certain distance then begin to get much closer at the end of the scale, like a cue ball's edge for example. The black numbers are for the sine, the red for cosine.


View attachment 443933


The spacing between the lines is pretty regular and the proportions between angles are about the same distances apart. 15* is 1/4 ball, 30* is half ball. 10* is 1/6 ball, 20* is 1/3 ball, 40* is 2/3 ball. Around 50* the marks start getting closer together and around 70* become even more compressed. A little distance goes a long way here.

If you imagine the scale of the rule and shrink it down to fit on a cue ball radius, you see the physical distance is very small. The tangent lines don't dance very much with table position but they use a very small dance floor. Hope you found it interesting.

For the purists: You'll notice the scale doesn't start at 0*. An expanded ST scale is used for small angles to get the tangent and sine values where they are almost equal. Consult Wiki for more slide rule facts if interested. They're as easy as falling off a 'log'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slide_rule

Here is a visual of crowding:

 

[Dan White]

To answer your question. For cut angles greater than 30 degrees center CB to edge OB the ghostball center is outside of the OB and so one can't use the equator of OB as a crutch to estimate fractions. With pivoting one can see the edge of the OB (3:00 and 9:00) to start the aiming process prepivot and with the correct shift of the tip to the side of the center of the CB one can make those thin cuts.

Be well.:smile::thumbup:

Well I'll take your word for it that people need pivoting to make shots. My opinion is that the app between your ears is better than any "system." Just shoot balls, pay attention to what happens, and your brain figures it out. I get criticized for being in this forum if I don't believe in "aiming systems" but, like you, Trump won and I'm killing time. :wink:

I'm fine if people want to pivot this way and that, but perfecting that method requires the same effort that HAMB requires. The problem I have is when people start claiming that this can be done "objectively." Whoever makes such incredible claims better come with some pretty solid evidence. After 20 years, such hasn't happened, despite claims over the years that this guy or that finally figured it out. At some point you have to make some common sense conclusions about how these systems work, no?

 

[Vorpal Cue]

Here is a visual of crowding:

View attachment 443940

I like the diagram and gives a good scale of the distances. I think it could show the ratios more fully if the colored lines were extended and mapped to a cue ball with twice the diameter. By the time the cut angle goes to 90*, the line segment is twice as long as the radius. Or maybe map the other half of the reference cue all at the proper scale. Aren't critics a pain?

Thanks for adding it.

 

[GoldenFlash]

Well I'll take your word for it that people need pivoting to make shots. My opinion is that the app between your ears is better than any "system." Just shoot balls, pay attention to what happens, and your brain figures it out. I get criticized for being in this forum if I don't believe in "aiming systems" but, like you, Trump won and I'm killing time. :wink:
I'm fine if people want to pivot this way and that, but perfecting that method requires the same effort that HAMB requires. The problem I have is when people start claiming that this can be done "objectively." Whoever makes such incredible claims better come with some pretty solid evidence. After 20 years, such hasn't happened, despite claims over the years that this guy or that finally figured it out. At some point you have to make some common sense conclusions about how these systems work, no?

You are soooooooo wrong about your statement I've highlighted.
It's a shame that you don't know what you do not know.
Evidence? You want evidence??
Okay....here's some evidence. Watch Stan Shuffett on youtube making those shots with that curtain blocking the view of the pockets. Let's see you do that by "just shooting balls and letting your brain figure it out".

 

[ENGLISH!]

Here is a visual of crowding:

View attachment 443940

<<<:thumbup2: >>>

 

[Vorpal Cue]

Here is a visual of crowding:

View attachment 443940

You are soooooooo wrong about your statement I've highlighted.
It's a shame that you don't know what you do not know.
Evidence? You want evidence??
Okay....here's some evidence. Watch Stan Shuffett on youtube making those shots with that curtain blocking the view of the pockets. Let's see you do that by "just shooting balls and letting your brain figure it out".

I agree with your point but would you please scale back your font a size or two.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Well I'll take your word for it that people need pivoting to make shots. My opinion is that the app between your ears is better than any "system." Just shoot balls, pay attention to what happens, and your brain figures it out. I get criticized for being in this forum if I don't believe in "aiming systems" but, like you, Trump won and I'm killing time. :wink:

I'm fine if people want to pivot this way and that, but perfecting that method requires the same effort that HAMB requires. The problem I have is when people start claiming that this can be done "objectively." Whoever makes such incredible claims better come with some pretty solid evidence. After 20 years, such hasn't happened, despite claims over the years that this guy or that finally figured it out. At some point you have to make some common sense conclusions about how these systems work, no?

:thumbup2::thumbup2::thumbup2::thumbup2::thumbup2::thumbup2::thumbup2:

 

[LAMas]

Honest question/comment here so please no flaming: On the one hand you can line up behind the cue ball, figure out the ghost ball position, and hit center ball to send the cue ball to the ghost and pocket the [cue] object ball. So on every shot you are hitting center cue ball and you are varying the contact point on the object ball based on feel.

No feel involved if you double the distance. When the cut angle is grater tha 30 degrees the center of the GB is outside of the edge of the OB forcing you to aim at the far rail or somewhere on the cloth.


On the other hand, I may have this wrong, but it looks to me what you are describing is a system where it is backwards from the above method. You are aiming at the ob edge for all shots, but you are varying your pivot amount based on feel. What is the advantage?

No feel involved if you know what fraction of the cue tip to aim at the edge of the OB. Granted that when th OB is far away, that fraction become minuscule.


This thread is about describing what phenomena/steps are required to aim using versions of CTE and not - it feels right.

 

[LAMas]

I like the diagram and gives a good scale of the distances. I think it could show the ratios more fully if the colored lines were extended and mapped to a cue ball with twice the diameter. By the time the cut angle goes to 90*, the line segment is twice as long as the radius. Or maybe map the other half of the reference cue all at the proper scale. Aren't critics a pain?

Thanks for adding it.

3D perspective with foreshortening where the CB appears larger than the OB?
You can ask PJ to do that...except he is banned.

 

[Vorpal Cue]

3D perspective with foreshortening where the CB appears larger than the OB?
You can ask PJ to do that...except he is banned.

No, not a 3D effect, but extend the 0-90* colored lines down to a new line segment. Then use the black line as the center and the new line segment as the radius of a larger cue ball.

Or use the reference solid ball and draw the same colored lines on the other side, but at half the scale as the ones on your line segment.

Looks easy to write but it wasn't. Hope you can see what I'm suggesting.

 

[Dan White]

You are soooooooo wrong about your statement I've highlighted.
It's a shame that you don't know what you do not know.
Evidence? You want evidence??
Okay....here's some evidence. Watch Stan Shuffett on youtube making those shots with that curtain blocking the view of the pockets. Let's see you do that by "just shooting balls and letting your brain figure it out".

OK, how's this: https://youtu.be/_SFSkVlWjLA

The brain is apparently more powerful than you give it credit. Mind you, I had been shooting blind shots like this for 10 or 15 minutes. Stan has been doing it for 10 years. Shooting trick shots blind is meaningless.

Here's another thing -- the HAMB method gets a bad rap because people think it might actually be a Million balls. It isn't! Put an object ball three inches off the long rail two diamonds from the corner pocket. Put the cue ball three feet away at a 25 degree angle. If you are a beginner, set that shot up and shoot it maybe 30 times a night for a week. Do other shots in a similar manner. Your ability to pocket balls will go way up if you do this while paying attention. Building a "memory bank" isn't really that hard.

Developing a straight stroke is much more difficult... and important, IMO.

 

[Dan White]

No feel involved if you know what fraction of the cue tip to aim at the edge of the OB. Granted that when th OB is far away, that fraction become minuscule.


This thread is about describing what phenomena/steps are required to aim using versions of CTE and not - it feels right.

Two questions:

1. I haven't followed the detailed geometry presented in all these posts. When you have a shot where you are aiming at the edge of the ob and you need to pivot out a little, maybe 1/2 tip, to pocket the ball, how are you making the determination that you need to pivot that much?

2. What do you do when you observe that the balls are super slick, or are very dirty. How do you adjust your aim other than by feel based on the table conditions you are presented with?

 

[LAMas]

Two questions:

1. I haven't followed the detailed geometry presented in all these posts. When you have a shot where you are aiming at the edge of the ob and you need to pivot out a little, maybe 1/2 tip, to pocket the ball, how are you making the determination that you need to pivot that much?

Practice and observation of results, but at least you have the tip as a visible reference point and not just - it feels right.

2. What do you do when you observe that the balls are super slick, or are very dirty. How do you adjust your aim other than by feel based on the table conditions you are presented with?

Whether you have an aiming system or not, those are variables that are always present.

Adjustment are necessary to play pool.

 

[Dan White]

Adjustment are necessary to play pool.

Respectfully, it would be nice if more of you guys learned to use the multi-quote feature available. Highlight the text you want to comment on, and then click on the little square text bubble in the menu just above (4th icon from the right). It is hard to have a discussion when you nest your comments in blue without using the quote feature... just sayin'.

You said: Practice and observation of results, but at least you have the tip as a visible reference point and not just - it feels right.

Let's take the HAMB method, which is basically the same as the ghost ball method. I'm not using "it just feels right." The ghost ball is found by lining up the ob to the pocket and determining where the ghost ball needs to be. Imagining that ghost ball, you send the cue ball to that spot, plus a little for throw, which is learned by doing. This method requires practice and observation of results. You need to practice seeing the ghost ball and sending the cue ball there. You have the memory of the ghost ball position as your reference point (not "it feels right.")

Again, I don't see how this is really any different. In one method you aim at the ghost ball, in the other you aim at the ob edge and change the tip location. Both methods require practice and both ultimately require "feel" to get proficient at it. In the end, after playing long enough, the shot will either look right or it won't no matter what aiming method you use to get to that point.

Everybody seems allergic to the idea that feel is required to pocket balls proficiently. Maybe it is just a matter of terminology.

 

[LAMas]

Respectfully, it would be nice if more of you guys learned to use the multi-quote feature available. Highlight the text you want to comment on, and then click on the little square text bubble in the menu just above (4th icon from the right). It is hard to have a discussion when you nest your comments in blue without using the quote feature... just sayin'.

You said: Practice and observation of results, but at least you have the tip as a visible reference point and not just - it feels right.

Let's take the HAMB method, which is basically the same as the ghost ball method. I'm not using "it just feels right." The ghost ball is found by lining up the ob to the pocket and determining where the ghost ball needs to be. Imagining that ghost ball, you send the cue ball to that spot, plus a little for throw, which is learned by doing. This method requires practice and observation of results. You need to practice seeing the ghost ball and sending the cue ball there. You have the memory of the ghost ball position as your reference point (not "it feels right.")

Again, I don't see how this is really any different. In one method you aim at the ghost ball, in the other you aim at the ob edge and change the tip location. Both methods require practice and both ultimately require "feel" to get proficient at it. In the end, after playing long enough, the shot will either look right or it won't no matter what aiming method you use to get to that point.

Everybody seems allergic to the idea that feel is required to pocket balls proficiently. Maybe it is just a matter of terminology.

I can't see into the center of the GB like I can see the tip of my cue.

 

[ENGLISH!]

OK, how's this: https://youtu.be/_SFSkVlWjLA

The brain is apparently more powerful than you give it credit. Mind you, I had been shooting blind shots like this for 10 or 15 minutes. Stan has been doing it for 10 years. Shooting trick shots blind is meaningless.

Here's another thing -- the HAMB method gets a bad rap because people think it might actually be a Million balls. It isn't! Put an object ball three inches off the long rail two diamonds from the corner pocket. Put the cue ball three feet away at a 25 degree angle. If you are a beginner, set that shot up and shoot it maybe 30 times a night for a week. Do other shots in a similar manner. Your ability to pocket balls will go way up if you do this while paying attention. Building a "memory bank" isn't really that hard.

Developing a straight stroke is much more difficult... and important, IMO.

:thumbup2::thumbup2::thumbup2:

 

[LAMas]

No, not a 3D effect, but extend the 0-90* colored lines down to a new line segment. Then use the black line as the center and the new line segment as the radius of a larger cue ball.

Or use the reference solid ball and draw the same colored lines on the other side, but at half the scale as the ones on your line segment.

Looks easy to write but it wasn't. Hope you can see what I'm suggesting.

Make a hand sketch on a napkin and take a .jpg picture and post it so I can see what you want.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Vorpal Cue]

Make a hand sketch on a napkin and take a .jpg picture and post it so I can see what you want.

Thanks in advance.

Tried to PM the pic but no go. Hate to clutter the thread with my 'art' I'd have drawn the big circle but my compass is playing hide and seek. It won.

[ATTac Masterpiece Missing, Moderators Mystified taCH]

Ripped the picture out of it's frame and got the page size back to normal.

 

[GoldenFlash]

'Meaningless' is in the eyes of the beholder

OK, how's this: https://youtu.be/_SFSkVlWjLA
The brain is apparently more powerful than you give it credit. Mind you, I had been shooting blind shots like this for 10 or 15 minutes. Stan has been doing it for 10 years. Shooting trick shots blind is meaningless.
Here's another thing -- the HAMB method gets a bad rap because people think it might actually be a Million balls. It isn't! Put an object ball three inches off the long rail two diamonds from the corner pocket. Put the cue ball three feet away at a 25 degree angle. If you are a beginner, set that shot up and shoot it maybe 30 times a night for a week. Do other shots in a similar manner. Your ability to pocket balls will go way up if you do this while paying attention. Building a "memory bank" isn't really that hard.
Developing a straight stroke is much more difficult... and important,<==no it isn't IMO.

I'm going to dish it to you the same way you've dished it to Stan. Let's see how thick your skin is.
This is a very clever video, but it won't wash.
#1 You made 3 shots....big deal. And those you set up ideally so they'd fall into order for the 'fraction system'.
#2 You could see under the barrier you set up. You said so yourself.....but "you didn't look". I don't believe you.
Not fun getting back the same critique that you dished out is it?
Your video was, to use your own words, meaningless.

 

[LAMas]

Tried to PM the pic but no go. Hate to clutter the thread with my 'art' I'd have drawn the big circle but my compass is playing hide and seek. It won.

View attachment 443970

"...and the slithy toves. Did gyre and gimble in the wabe."



Have fun and be well.