I thought we weren’t arguing, just having a discussion.
Players that cheat
- Thread starter justnum
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I thought we weren’t arguing, just having a discussion.
Damn right! :thumbup:
Well when you take some analogies I make and try to twist it into something you want it to say, that is when it is no longer a discussion. Just like how people try to twist the rules into stuff like "within the rules" to justify cheating I am done discussing.
Trent
Here is a GREAT example supporting why intentionally fouling is actually not "within the rules"
https://youtu.be/qDzSOV620xc
I hardly twisted your words, but that doesn’t matter. Must be frustrating to play a game that everyone cheats at but you.
I think you're simply caught up in semantics. Just because something is labeled a "foul" doesn't necessarily mean it's unethical to intentionally do it.
If we simply relabeled the action of not hitting the lowest ball first in a rotation game as an "imperfect hit" instead of a "foul", would you be okay with intentional imperfect hits?
If there is a penalty for taking/making an intentional foul, then what's the problem? Rotation games=ball-in-hand. One pocket/14.1=loss of ball/point. I cannot see how this could ever be construed as cheating. Nor have I ever seen a player called for unsportsmanlike conduct for intentionally fouling "within the rules".
Remember, the incoming player is playing under the same rules and certainly may commit an intentional foul whenever he/she chooses or needs to for the survival of that particular game.
IMO, cheating can only be cause by an overt act of unsportsmanlike conduct (which can also lead to penalties) or doing something that is not legal as far as the rules of that particular game/tournament/league, etc. goes, whether the opponent catches it or not (unless the rules state that the sitting player is responsible for calling the opponents fouls).
I can't see where one of us is having a problem figuring this out.
Maniac
Remember, the incoming player is playing under the same rules and certainly may commit an intentional foul whenever he/she chooses or needs to for the survival of that particular game.
IMO, cheating can only be cause by an overt act of unsportsmanlike conduct (which can also lead to penalties) or doing something that is not legal as far as the rules of that particular game/tournament/league, etc. goes, whether the opponent catches it or not (unless the rules state that the sitting player is responsible for calling the opponents fouls).
I can't see where one of us is having a problem figuring this out.
Maniac
I don't have to listen to the podcast. Why not answer my specific question?
i played a guy in a tournament that got in my line of vision every shot. He kept stroking his cue like he was having a sexual encounter with it and tapping feet ,100 miles per hour.
He just would not allow me to play without being all over me and I finally got angry .
Talked to the TD and he was watched him for a while and he did it even then TD says get out of the line of vision if you need to dance and the guy stops just long enough for him to walk away , then starts bad mouthing me.
The final straw was I slept a ball and he grabs it out of the return and says, this ones mine, and I just didn't feel like arguing with the imbecile that day.
So I went home.
Cheating is the norm now, they cheat so much at the chess tournaments that it is endangering the game.
Of course they get their practice in on the web sites so it's almost impossible to play an honest game unless it is 1 minute chess , and even then they have a way to lag you and win on time.
I can understand someone might cheat if they had to feed their family, I probably wouldn't even be angry if I knew it was the truth, but people lie and cheat and steal nowadays like it is no big deal.
I have a pool cheat I have seen one of the pros do many times to people and never got called on it.
He has a ball in front of his side pocket , sometime during running the balls he will carom that hanger in while shooting another ball in his pocket and playing shape, he just keeps shooting and when hes finished he just keeps that ball! lol , I have seen some high level players go for it too.
. Another lower rated player, would bridge over a ball and then pick it up and sneak it into his rack when the opponent wasn't looking.
I watched Klein's video, Trent. The podcast/video is from last year, giving the ideas presented by Warren Fraleigh in a 1982 paper.
To summarize: Fraleigh's view is that "intentional violations with expectation of penalty,"i.e., "good fouls," are bad for sports contests because they change the nature of the game without agreement from all participants. He says such agreement can't happen unless the rules are actually changed in explicit ways. Klein mentions the obvious counterargument -- that such tactics are conventionally allowed by implicit agreement -- and Fraleigh's counter that we can't assume all participants agree to that convention.
I think it's pretty safe to say that fouling intentionally (with penalty) in the various pool games is accepted overwhelmingly as an allowable tactic that is not in any way cheating, dishonorable, or immoral. It has been part of the games forever. [And such tactics, with penalty, can be viewed as within the rules (despite Mr. Fraleigh).]
Trent, did you read the comment and response below the video? A viewer asked "Does the prevalence and tacit acceptance of the "good foul" undermine Sport?" The Sports Ethicist (Mr. Klein) responded: "I don't think so, ... there is something in terms of implicit extra-rule understandings to provide a basis for justifying (some?) tactical fouls." I'd say that the standard types of intentional fouls in pool -- a 1-pointer or 15-pointer in 14.1, tying up balls in rotation games and 8-Ball in exchange for giving up BIH, a 1-ball penalty in 1-Pocket to rearrange things -- are all long-established parts of the games. They add to the games rather than detracting from the contest.
Trent, how do you handle maintaining your view in the pool world? Do you play with other people or in tournaments or in leagues? What problems have you faced? Have you ever met another pool player who shares, and lives by, your view of intentional fouls?
To summarize: Fraleigh's view is that "intentional violations with expectation of penalty,"i.e., "good fouls," are bad for sports contests because they change the nature of the game without agreement from all participants. He says such agreement can't happen unless the rules are actually changed in explicit ways. Klein mentions the obvious counterargument -- that such tactics are conventionally allowed by implicit agreement -- and Fraleigh's counter that we can't assume all participants agree to that convention.
I think it's pretty safe to say that fouling intentionally (with penalty) in the various pool games is accepted overwhelmingly as an allowable tactic that is not in any way cheating, dishonorable, or immoral. It has been part of the games forever. [And such tactics, with penalty, can be viewed as within the rules (despite Mr. Fraleigh).]
Trent, did you read the comment and response below the video? A viewer asked "Does the prevalence and tacit acceptance of the "good foul" undermine Sport?" The Sports Ethicist (Mr. Klein) responded: "I don't think so, ... there is something in terms of implicit extra-rule understandings to provide a basis for justifying (some?) tactical fouls." I'd say that the standard types of intentional fouls in pool -- a 1-pointer or 15-pointer in 14.1, tying up balls in rotation games and 8-Ball in exchange for giving up BIH, a 1-ball penalty in 1-Pocket to rearrange things -- are all long-established parts of the games. They add to the games rather than detracting from the contest.
Trent, how do you handle maintaining your view in the pool world? Do you play with other people or in tournaments or in leagues? What problems have you faced? Have you ever met another pool player who shares, and lives by, your view of intentional fouls?
a local used to scratch get the cue ball, smudge it with a wax then give me ball in hand.
I always wipe my cue ball after a scratch now.
another player would bring his hot friend and makeout between innings.
i was sure it wasnt his wife and he is cheating
hockey went through something similar for fighting.
is a penalty box needed in pool?
I always wipe my cue ball after a scratch now.
another player would bring his hot friend and makeout between innings.
i was sure it wasnt his wife and he is cheating
hockey went through something similar for fighting.
is a penalty box needed in pool?
If the rules were actually changed to allow any of these things it would make it all better. Games change and evolve just like everything else. I am not against the idea of these things being added to the game to create more options for stragety.
It is tough, I wish pool were more like Golf. As I said above, if the rules were modified to allow these things it would make things much more acceptable for me.
League players find new and interesting ways to break the rules all the time. Lower handicapped players I find play the dirtiest pool.
Not many people look at it the way I do. I work on pool tables for a living and ask all of my clients, some are with me, some do it and don't like it, some could care less and will do anything to win. I have noticed this, people will generally do it most when it is for money (or league) and not during casual play.
There will always be people out there that are willing to do anything to win. Its just a game, I love to win, but, I dont mind losing either. Can't win all the time.
Trent from Toledo
If the rules were actually changed to allow any of these things it would make it all better. Games change and evolve just like everything else. I am not against the idea of these things being added to the game to create more options for stragety.
It is tough, I wish pool were more like Golf. As I said above, if the rules were modified to allow these things it would make things much more acceptable for me.
League players find new and interesting ways to break the rules all the time. Lower handicapped players I find play the dirtiest pool.
Not many people look at it the way I do. I work on pool tables for a living and ask all of my clients, some are with me, some do it and don't like it, some could care less and will do anything to win. I have noticed this, people will generally do it most when it is for money (or league) and not during casual play.
There will always be people out there that are willing to do anything to win. Its just a game, I love to win, but, I dont mind losing either. Can't win all the time.
Trent from Toledo
Trent, have you ever used the ‘push’ option after the break?
Not sure how it works, so not really.
LOL... I see what you did there...
Ignoring it! He is obviously one of the people the OP was posting about. Just need to win sooo bad it hurts!
HAHAHHAHAHA
He's basically saying you are a clueless banger, if you are being serious...
I would tend to agree.