Please explain why kamui chalk is a "scam"

I don't think kamui chalk is a scam.

It's just $30 chalk.

I played with a cube for 3 hours a couple weeks ago, and there is not one thing that i could do differently on a pool table as a result of it.
Still made all the shots i am used to making, still miscued on some extreme english shots.

It didn't improve the spin i put on, it didn't improve my aim, it didn't turn my regular wood shaft into an LD shaft just from it's use.

It DOES however, leave blue spots all over the cue ball.

That and how soft it feels were the only real differences i noticed.

So if you can do everything with a regular piece of chalk that the pool hall provides to you for free, why bother?

But if someone likes $30 chalk, it's their money. What difference does it make what they spend it on?
 
cleary said:
PM me your address and I'll send you a used cube. Apparently I don't have any common sense so I paid for brand new cubes for $30. To make matters worse, I have even less common sense that I'll send you a half used cube to try because I'm a nice guy without common sense. Then you can tell me how the crow tastes.
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I will take you up on your offer and I will conduct the test in complete honesty and I will send the rest of the chalk back to you when done if you wish. I know a lot of the guys I shoot with are old timers who are not internet savvy and probably don't even know anything but Masters exists, but they are awesome players. I'm not going to say that one is a $30 piece of chalk, I will just say that they are 2 different brands and I want to know if they notice that one hits better then the other, cue ball control, etc.
 
Poolplaya9 said:
Off the top of my head I can think of five claims I've heard for the benefits of Kamui chalk. At least four of those four claims are scams in one way or another, and the jury is still out on the fifth. Explanations below.

Claimed benefit #1 is that due to reduced slippage, you get more spin. This is nonsense. When you are hitting a round, smooth object with a deflecting off center blow at the relatively high speeds of most pool shots, you either have no slippage, or full slippage (miscue). Once the tip starts slipping off the cue ball it isn't going to magically grab back onto the cue ball and hold. It just keeps on slipping until it slips right off the edge of the cue ball, resulting in a miscue. It either slips and miscues, or it doesn't slip and doesn't miscue, period. There is no in between. With the same stroke, same hit point on the cue ball, and same tip, you will get the exact same spin regardless of what chalk is used.

Claimed benefit #2 is that due to reduced slippage, your shots are straighter. See #1 above. There is no reduced slippage, so therefore there is no effect on the "straightness" of your shots.

Claimed benefit #3 is that you chalk far less often. This appears to be true, but offers no real benefit, and in fact actually has several down sides. For starters, ten shots is about the high end average of what most people claim to be able to do before needing to re-chalk with Kamui. So if Kamui was less that ten times the cost of another chalk, then it would be more cost effective. Unfortunately this isn't the case. Kamui does "last" ten times longer, but it costs 30 times as much as say masters. This means that on a per shot basis, Kamui still costs three times as much! So it certainly is not cost effective.

Secondly, there are very real benefits to chalking on every single shot that you will lose with Kamui chalk. Chalking every shot is a part of your pre-shot routine, and we all know the importance of doing the same things on every shot and having a routine. Chalking also gives you a defined moment to mentally collect and prepare yourself for the next shot, to get back relaxed, focused, etc. On the other hand, with Kamui on some shots you are actually chalking, and on some shots you are just checking your tip but not chalking, and on some shots your are doing nothing at all, so there is no routine whatsoever. And since with Kamui you still have to check your tip after many of your shots anyway to see if the tip needs chalk yet, you might as well just be chalking since that takes little if any more time and effort, and gives you the added benefits mentioned above.
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Exactly what I think about! Especially #1 is a very essential statement based on fundamental physical knowledge.

But in the moment I do not agree about #4 and #5. It seems to me that the Kamui chalk 0.98 that I tested several months ago grabs the ball with more security. The differences may be as more as ones stroke is worse. So my experince with those guys of our pool club who are playing on a pretty low technical skill level and usually do pretty often miscue with usual chalk. But here I'm not a 100% sure, it only seems to be very plausible to me. Maybe also an explantion that they are not yet able to chalk reliably enough with a usual chalk.

;-)
 
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cleary said:
I buy things to try them. I don't always like things I buy. I would say I've disliked more things that I've tried than I've liked. I've bought tons of cues and just resold them because I didn't like the way they hit. I bought blue diamond chalk in the past and used it for a few months. I never saw much of a difference between that and Master chalk.

I would have no reason to automatically like this chalk. I too was one that thought there was no way it would improve my game. Sorry, I can now say I was wrong.
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As much as you wanted to remain objectional the fact is you knew you were shooting with $30 chalk. You need to do a test with a participant who doesn't know when they are using the kamui chalk.

You can swear up and down all day about how good the chalk is but to really answer that question we need to unbiased hard data. Without that you are going to have both camps fighting over the value of the chalk based on OPINION.
 
cleary said:
Based on your response, you either haven't tried it because you "know" it doesn't work or you tried it for 4min with a negative mindset. Its cool.. I like it, you don't have to.
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What I am saying is that this is one of those cases where those that have enough science knowledge and understanding can and do know that it does not make your shots straighter due to less "slippage" no matter what your senses of perception might be telling you when you use it, or even if you haven't. Obviously you have to have tried it to know if you like it for any of the other benefits such as "it sticks to the tip better with less effort or swiping," or to see if you get a placebo effect that improves your game, etc.

I'm glad you like it. Some others will too. Although there are some bad points, in several ways it's good chalk. But it sure won't make their shots straighter by correcting any "slippage" problem.

If this "slippage" of the kind that does not end up resulting in a miscue really does exist it would be easy for them to prove. I'll be waiting to see if Kamui backs up their claim with this proof. Because of the fact that it would be so easy to prove, their silence on it should speak volumes even to those that did not have enough science knowledge to be able to determine for themselves that the claim was not true.
 
TheNewSharkster said:
As much as you wanted to remain objectional the fact is you knew you were shooting with $30 chalk. You need to do a test with a participant who doesn't know when they are using the kamui chalk.

You can swear up and down all day about how good the chalk is but to really answer that question we need to unbiased hard data. Without that you are going to have both camps fighting over the value of the chalk based on OPINION.
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So when I tried 1.21 chalk and didn't like it was I not trying $30 chalk??? Your logic doesn't add up. It's $30... wow
 
cleary said:
So when I tried 1.21 chalk and didn't like it was I not trying $30 chalk??? Your logic doesn't add up. It's $30... wow
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Settle down. You ask people on this topic why others consider Kamui chalk a scam and then you shoot everybody down that doesn't have a opinion in line with yours.

Here is the thing, I am not talking about Kamui .98 or 1.21 or masters or blue diamond. I am talking about doing a test based on science rather than opinion. That is the only way to get to the bottom of the subject at hand.
 
I tried it, didn't like it, sold it for what I paid for it. Did I feel scammed? No, I felt stupid. Nothing new there.
 
chevybob20 said:
$30(Kamui)/$0.15 (Master) = 200 times more. Just saying.:D
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Yeah, I figured I would use blue diamond which costs $1-$2 I believe. I get your point though. Some of the cue companies have a robot for hitting balls for testing deflection. I would love to see that used with the Kamui chalk.

I would also like to see the results of a "blind taste" test. That would also provide constructive unbiased information.
 
Flip that diagram on its side and it would seem you should be capable of deeper draw and higher follow shots as well? Someone must have tested this out with a robotic arm by now...
 
TheNewSharkster said:
Yeah, I figured I would use blue diamond which costs $1-$2 I believe. I get your point though. Some of the cue companies have a robot for hitting balls for testing deflection. I would love to see that used with the Kamui chalk.

I would also like to see the results of a "blind taste" test. That would also provide constructive unbiased information.
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This would be a useful test.
 
chevybob20 said:
This would be a useful test.
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Yes, it would be great to test Kamui, Blue Diamond, Magic, Masters and Silver cup and see where they stand.

I presonally like Magic, and have never tried Kamui or BD, but for the price, only a $5 for 2 cubes, and it grabs great... I can literally shoot drills, over 30 shots, including lots of draw without chalking..... kinda nice not to have to chalk after each shot when doing drills. Is it better than Kamui? I dunno,,, but it is helluva lot cheaper, and would be nice if someone test all the popular chalks and see where they stand.

Cleary, you wannt test the chalks? I'll send you a free piece of Magic for the test.....
 
It leaves marks on the cb and ob, and gets on the table. The marks stay longer than with conventional chalk, and cause problems.
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As more and more accounts come in on the product we see more and more of them like this. It's unfortunately lost in the ongoing and labored theme of value but it is far more significant than these threads typically give it credit.

How significant? Toss aside the marketing of 1.21 and it is pretty clear that chalk was 'toned down'. Was that in response to potential fears that the product could become regulated? Perhaps. The price point has kept it from becoming widespread enough to test that theory, however for many players even the idea that the chalk may become a detriment will outweigh the potential (real or not) benefits of using the chalk, particularly for those that are playing in a game involving the chalk in which they are not the ones using it.
 
Poolplaya9 said:
Off the top of my head I can think of five claims I've heard for the benefits of Kamui chalk. At least four of those four claims are scams in one way or another, and the jury is still out on the fifth. Explanations below.

Claimed benefit #1 is that due to reduced slippage, you get more spin. This is nonsense. When you are hitting a round, smooth object with a deflecting off center blow at the relatively high speeds of most pool shots, you either have no slippage, or full slippage (miscue). Once the tip starts slipping off the cue ball it isn't going to magically grab back onto the cue ball and hold. It just keeps on slipping until it slips right off the edge of the cue ball, resulting in a miscue. It either slips and miscues, or it doesn't slip and doesn't miscue, period. There is no in between. With the same stroke, same hit point on the cue ball, and same tip, you will get the exact same spin regardless of what chalk is used.
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No you don't. If that were teh case then Pioneer chalk from Sears would be as good as Masters. The fact of it is that more friction would lead to more spin if the ball is hit in the same spot with the same force - ASSUMING THAT CONTACT TIME IS INCREASED.

Since Pioneer chalk is so bad compared to Masters then it has to be assumed that Masters provides more friction. If true then it's not out of the realm of possibility for Kamui to provide even more friction than Masters does.



Claimed benefit #2 is that due to reduced slippage, your shots are straighter. See #1 above. There is no reduced slippage, so therefore there is no effect on the "straightness" of your shots.
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You didn't discredit claim one. The straightness of a shot though has to do with the stroke and not the tip/chalk. What they mean is that more grip deflects less. I would like to see proof of this in action.

Claimed benefit #3 is that you chalk far less often. This appears to be true, but offers no real benefit, and in fact actually has several down sides. For starters, ten shots is about the high end average of what most people claim to be able to do before needing to re-chalk with Kamui. So if Kamui was less that ten times the cost of another chalk, then it would be more cost effective. Unfortunately this isn't the case. Kamui does "last" ten times longer, but it costs 30 times as much as say masters. This means that on a per shot basis, Kamui still costs three times as much! So it certainly is not cost effective.
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Not sure where you are getting the average at but I can shoot much more than ten shots at the miscue limit without re-chalking. Playing not more than a 1.5 tips from center I could go for a longer time. There are other benefits to not chalking as much such as establishing a rhythm unbroken by chalking.

Secondly, there are very real benefits to chalking on every single shot that you will lose with Kamui chalk. Chalking every shot is a part of your pre-shot routine, and we all know the importance of doing the same things on every shot and having a routine. Chalking also gives you a defined moment to mentally collect and prepare yourself for the next shot, to get back relaxed, focused, etc. On the other hand, with Kamui on some shots you are actually chalking, and on some shots you are just checking your tip but not chalking, and on some shots your are doing nothing at all, so there is no routine whatsoever. And since with Kamui you still have to check your tip after many of your shots anyway to see if the tip needs chalk yet, you might as well just be chalking since that takes little if any more time and effort, and gives you the added benefits mentioned above.
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This is a personal thing. Some people don't chalk every shot with Masters and they do just fine. I chalk once a game - before the break when I use Kamui. Works fine with no problems.

Claimed benefit #4 is that it grips better which enables you to hit closer to the edge of cue ball before a miscue. With a good stroke and masters chalk, you can already hit near the edge of the cue ball and get absolutely massive amounts of spin. Highly unlikely that you can get any closer to the edge with something else, as there just isn't much edge left. And even if it was possible, when would you ever need to get more spin than the absolutely massive amounts you can already get with the masters if you have a good stroke?
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This works for other shots too. For example IF it really grips better then you could get the same amount of spin with say 1.2 tips of spin using Kamui as you could using 1.5 tips with Masters. Again I'd like to see some objective testing done to prove these claims but I don't say that they are not possible.

Claimed benefit #5 is that it grips slightly better on those shots that were hit with a crappy stroke or with a glazed tip near the edge of miscue land and therefore will save you a few miscues. The jury is still out on this one. It may help with this a little bit over say masters chalk, or maybe not. And if it does save the occasional miscue is it worth all the additional cost? That might be a yes for one person, and no for another. And one always has the option to work on improving your tip maintenance or stroke...
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This is a numbers exercise but the clear answer is that less miscues equals more money. Miscues lead to loss of games and sets and ultimately tournaments. So for anyone who can reduce their miscues they WILL end up with more money over the long term.

Now again I'd like to see some REAL evidence to back up this claim. I want high speed video of tip offsets and rpm measurements.

Without real evidence the claims come off as scammy in my opinion.

I like the chalk. I rarely use it though because for me Masters works well enough and I can do everything with the ball with Masters that I can do with Kamui. Kamui does feel "better" somehow but it's hard to quantify. Not $25 better and not $30 better though. The stuff is good, I don't find that it marks the balls or the table in any noticeable way that bothers me. Then again I don't use it that much either.

I vote that it's NOT a scam. I believe that Mr. Hiraoka, the inventor, sincerely believes that it's better for the reasons they list. But the price point is way out of line when coupled with a lack of verifiable evidence for the claims.

I can't get to youtube now but I did two video comparisons of the chalk to Masters. username on youTube is jbideastoo and the videos are easy to find.
 
Question is.. Would people think it's that special if it was priced the same as Masters? I have a strong feeling, most people that have bought it automatically think it's god's gift to chalk because it was expensive.

If it's so amazing why doesn't every pro use it. If it improves your game so drastically you'd think everyone would use it.
 
cleary said:
I believe there are shots I'm much less consistent with without this chalk. Call me crazy...
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You know what,I don't think its crazy at all and I'll tell you why.If you watch most people do a jump shot they chalk there Phenolic tip and jump the ball,right?Well let me tell you that there's a few guys i know that say thats totally wrong,The one guy jumps like a champ and his theory is
if you chalk your jumper it grabs the CB and makes it tougher to get over the ball.If you use no chalk at all the CB leaves your tip much quicker and makes it that much easier to jump.So when you say that your tip is grabbing the cueball more which is causing less slippage and better traction it completely make sense that on a draw shot your CB
would come straight back.
I know I've hit some draw shots where it just didn't grab right and the
CB came back but more in a diagonal line and not straight.It's common sense to me that the product would work and could cause major
differences to your game especially if your a spin player.I still think the
price sucks for most but for the serious player its well worth the money!
 
I love the Kamui 0.98 I got to try, but being a receational player, I will not spend $30.00/Cube, as I get by with MASTER GREEN!
 
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