PM me your UltraSkin Layered Cue Tip Story
- Thread starter TomHay
- Start date
You're one of the ultra (no pun intended) good guys.
I thought it was very cool of you to send me the package of Ulta-Skins, so since it's not really about you, I wish you would reconsider.
By the way, do I owe you anything for those tips?
Peace
Ted
My question was simple - are the tips made by TomHay or not.
I wanted to know because I was interested in a new 'unique' product.
I had not seen this answered a couple of months back and was not sure if it had been answered between then and now. So I asked.
Nothing sinister, no ulterior motives, just a simple straight question which required no more than a simple straight answer.
The drama and accusations that followed from TomHay were a massive overreaction, and totally unwarranted in my humble opinion.
So, what am I trying to do? Absolutely nothing. I got an answer to my question, eventually, and that's all I was interested in.
BINGO! People need to learn how to keep their mouths shut, show some class and take certain questions/issues to PM. From reading the thread, I believe the sole purpose was to derail the kindness and force the manufacturing issue to the audience for some ulterior motive.
And my friends, the ulterior motive may be found in his statement, "I have no interest in competing at your price point nor in your market".
Regardless where the tips are manufactured, the product has been well received and is being sold at a certain price point to a certain clientele. Tom found a winning formula to a niche audience. Congratulations.
A good point was brought up. Where are Kamui manufactured? Are there photo's anywhere of their manufacturing facility? Are they even manufactured in Japan? Is there even a manufacturing facility strictly for Kamui? Are they manufactured elsewhere, imported into Japan where they are serial numbered and packaged? Do we have anyone who has actually visited the operation outside of the insiders? Who really cares! They found a formula that works to their audience.
I hope everyone is enjoying their weekend. :grin:
What Joe said x2
In this instance, you. :grin:
Only joking Mr Barringer, but it should be remembered this is a forum not a dictatorship.
Whether anyone agrees/disagrees, or chooses to join in, is a personal choice.
I agree, but tbh, for a product that has freely publicised and marketed via this forum, I did not feel the question of whether TomHay made the tips or not was a particularly sensitive subject.
But yes, pm would have avoided this ridiculous sideshow and I wish I had done that. Or simply not bothered period.
If you read the thread thoroughly, that particular comment was a response to underline the fact I was not trying to source the supplier to try to compete with TomHay.
I was solely interested in buying a unique TomHay product and simply wanted verification.
Sometimes Joe, things can be that simple.
In this case, it was.
Agreed. You'll find I stated similar in this thread somewhere.
Sorry, I disagree. This is not a good point because it is irrelevant to the context of my comments and serves no purpose as part of an argument to prove anything. It is a pointless analogy in this case.
I made no judgement on how good the tips were based on where or who makes them
Also, again, if you read the thread carefully, you will see that I already said I do not actually care where the tips are made. People like them, and that is the important thing.
But for me, I wanted assurance there were made by TomHay or under his direct control. The answer to that question would decide if I pursued my interest or not.
The fact is, whether you or anyone else like it, I have stated clearly my reasons and motives on several occasions in this thread now and I do not understand the failure to comprehend this.
No. I have a hangover
:grin:But I hope you have a good weekend in sunny Florida :wink:
So it's perfectly acceptable for you, the most vocal guy against Kamui to bash them to justify your support for TomHay? I'm not trying to promote promote, discuss, or do any harm to any tip company, we're just in a new era of pool. People are becoming more conscious of what they are buying, and due to Triangle and LePro having such quality control issues, we want to know more about tips before we install them. There's charts all over the internet that list the durometer readings for tips, something other people had to do and compile. Is it really that hard for a custom, new to the market tip, to go do the things that customers want? And if he doesn't want have customer's ask questions, he's in the wrong industry.
Justifying your actions because some other company does the same is retarded. People used to ask "How does it compare to a LePro? Harder or Softer." Now that there are hundreds of different tip manufacturers out there, some of them are big business people, some are more custom small shop type, that same question is nearly impossible to answer.
I was never questioning the quality of the product, and I don't think Agent17 was trying to either. It's just certain questions he brought up that I wanted answered for myself too. TomHay's response though is way out of line. Two people asked general questions about his product and he went overboard. None of the questions pertained to his proprietary tanning process, and he still wants to hide behind the old model of tip business, try it and find out if you like the tip or not. He just went one step further, rather than having to get people to buy the tips, he's giving away samples to insure repeat buyers. A nice gesture and thought, but he doesn't need to go off on potential customers when a few questions get asked.
Though I will say that the reason it is justified to ask for the durometer readings in the same reason Kamui's description of the tips doesn't match their durometer readings. Moori tips, for their mediums have almost always been between 75-80, the same for what a quality LePro would be. Why is his hard tip the same hardness reading as a medium? Same goes for Kamui, why is their soft the same rating as a medium should be?
TomHay, don't quit posting on here just because you got asked some questions, just don't try and hide behind some smoke and mirrors when running your business. A customer is always going to be curious as to whether he made the right choice or not, and helping them answer their questions is one way to build a business up. Not by just giving everything away for free and hoping to get repeat business. Sure you may have answered questions in private to the people who already have the tips, but to us who don't have the tips, when we ask a question and get treated the way you just treated Agent17 and I, why should I do business with a man who doesn't respect potential customers questions and concerns? If you are doing this for the love of the game as you so state, then you should have no problem answering certain questions with a smile on your face, knowing what you're saying to eventually going to put money in your pocket, and keep your love interest in the game going.
Ok, I can see this is not going to be easy so I'll bite one more time regarding Tom Hay's tips. In response to post #27, You are now bloviating and back peddling.
On July 16th in post #2, you stated, "Do you manufacture these yourself, in the USA? Or are they manufactured by a third party, either USA or overseas? I ask this question because I have seen similar layered tips from my far east contacts and would like to know for certain, before buying, that yours are different, specifically that the quality is consistent and guaranteed".
You specifically wanted to know where they were made and you even went so far as to denigrate the issue by mentioning the "far east" because that is where you wanted this to go for whatever reason.
Ok you'll argue now that I am reading too much into this and perhaps so but...
A full 24 hours later, On July 17th, in post #4, you just had to call Tom out again because he didn't respond quick enough by stating, "No answer to this question TomHay". You could have left it alone and moved on but no, you had to stick it up Tom's butt for the whole world to see again that he didn't reply furthering your intentions to prove that they are made overseas (if they are in fact made there I don't know).
To that end in post #6 on July 17th you again state, "Made in the Far East is my guess from that answer". That is the point you want to drive home!
You further state in post #6, "Black and round? Yes, I have seen many tip samples from the Far East, some very similar to yours. Black and round. Doesn't make me a detective, but it does make me want to know if your product is unique and different to what I could buy elsewhere, at a cheaper cost".
It seems to me that you have a lot more information than the average pool player so that leaves me to believe that you know who is selling what and where they are selling it. So, with all that knowledge why bring all this up in a public forum and call Tom unnecessarily to task?
Furthermore in post #8 on July 18th, you had to still make mention of the following, "I still don't know for sure if you manufacture a your tips in the USA, but the evasive nature of your answers tells me they are not".
After 2 days, you still insisted on making an issue that your belief was that Tom's tips were not made by him and manufactured in the far east. You couldn't leave it alone. You had to beat the horse to death contrary to your statements that you were done with this issue.
Well, there you have it. You obviously know what's being sold in the far east and how they are manufacturing many tips, mostly garbage, all with low, low pricing. Now if you knew all that by your own admission then one can assume that you are not an idiot, your motives were not honorable and are as you have stated. I believe your purpose was to denigrate the product in an open forum for whatever benefit to yourself or your cronies.
Which brings us to another topic. I'm Joe Baringer. Everyone knows who I am, what I look like, where I live, where I work and most importantly how to get in contact with me. Who are you sir? Where do you reside? What is your name?
You then go on to say in your last post that my analogy to a Kamui is irrelevant when it is extememly relevant and specifically relevant to your comments. You state, "Sorry, I disagree. This is not a good point because it is irrelevant to the context of my comments and serves no purpose as part of an argument to prove anything. It is a pointless analogy in this case".
Based on your statement, "but it does make me want to know if your product (Tom's tips) is unique and different to what I could buy elsewhere, at a cheaper cost".
Well, by your statement wouldn't you want to know if Kamui's are "unique and different"? Wouldn't you want to know if you could "buy them elsewhere"? Wouldn't you want to know if you can buy them at a "cheaper cost"?
Based on your own words any reasonable person would conclude that my statements were very relevant. So, to repeat myself...
A good point was brought up. Where are Kamui manufactured? Are there photo's anywhere of their manufacturing facility? Are they even manufactured in Japan? Is there even a manufacturing facility strictly for Kamui? Are they manufactured elsewhere, imported into Japan where they are serial numbered and packaged? Do we have anyone who has actually visited the operation outside of the insiders? Who really cares! They found a formula that works to their audience.
And on that note I'm done with this topic as its too nice out to sit at a computer typing this stuff. I have a life and would like to get back to it. :grin:
I wish all of you a wonderful weekend.
On July 16th in post #2, you stated, "Do you manufacture these yourself, in the USA? Or are they manufactured by a third party, either USA or overseas? I ask this question because I have seen similar layered tips from my far east contacts and would like to know for certain, before buying, that yours are different, specifically that the quality is consistent and guaranteed".
You specifically wanted to know where they were made and you even went so far as to denigrate the issue by mentioning the "far east" because that is where you wanted this to go for whatever reason.
Ok you'll argue now that I am reading too much into this and perhaps so but...
A full 24 hours later, On July 17th, in post #4, you just had to call Tom out again because he didn't respond quick enough by stating, "No answer to this question TomHay". You could have left it alone and moved on but no, you had to stick it up Tom's butt for the whole world to see again that he didn't reply furthering your intentions to prove that they are made overseas (if they are in fact made there I don't know).
To that end in post #6 on July 17th you again state, "Made in the Far East is my guess from that answer". That is the point you want to drive home!
You further state in post #6, "Black and round? Yes, I have seen many tip samples from the Far East, some very similar to yours. Black and round. Doesn't make me a detective, but it does make me want to know if your product is unique and different to what I could buy elsewhere, at a cheaper cost".
It seems to me that you have a lot more information than the average pool player so that leaves me to believe that you know who is selling what and where they are selling it. So, with all that knowledge why bring all this up in a public forum and call Tom unnecessarily to task?
Furthermore in post #8 on July 18th, you had to still make mention of the following, "I still don't know for sure if you manufacture a your tips in the USA, but the evasive nature of your answers tells me they are not".
After 2 days, you still insisted on making an issue that your belief was that Tom's tips were not made by him and manufactured in the far east. You couldn't leave it alone. You had to beat the horse to death contrary to your statements that you were done with this issue.
Well, there you have it. You obviously know what's being sold in the far east and how they are manufacturing many tips, mostly garbage, all with low, low pricing. Now if you knew all that by your own admission then one can assume that you are not an idiot, your motives were not honorable and are as you have stated. I believe your purpose was to denigrate the product in an open forum for whatever benefit to yourself or your cronies.
Which brings us to another topic. I'm Joe Baringer. Everyone knows who I am, what I look like, where I live, where I work and most importantly how to get in contact with me. Who are you sir? Where do you reside? What is your name?
You then go on to say in your last post that my analogy to a Kamui is irrelevant when it is extememly relevant and specifically relevant to your comments. You state, "Sorry, I disagree. This is not a good point because it is irrelevant to the context of my comments and serves no purpose as part of an argument to prove anything. It is a pointless analogy in this case".
Based on your statement, "but it does make me want to know if your product (Tom's tips) is unique and different to what I could buy elsewhere, at a cheaper cost".
Well, by your statement wouldn't you want to know if Kamui's are "unique and different"? Wouldn't you want to know if you could "buy them elsewhere"? Wouldn't you want to know if you can buy them at a "cheaper cost"?
Based on your own words any reasonable person would conclude that my statements were very relevant. So, to repeat myself...
A good point was brought up. Where are Kamui manufactured? Are there photo's anywhere of their manufacturing facility? Are they even manufactured in Japan? Is there even a manufacturing facility strictly for Kamui? Are they manufactured elsewhere, imported into Japan where they are serial numbered and packaged? Do we have anyone who has actually visited the operation outside of the insiders? Who really cares! They found a formula that works to their audience.
And on that note I'm done with this topic as its too nice out to sit at a computer typing this stuff. I have a life and would like to get back to it. :grin:
I wish all of you a wonderful weekend.
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You know, it's stupid that a man such as yourself just made such a huge mistake.
Isn't that along the lines of the Kamui knock-offs that have been passed around? An obviously inferior tip being branded high class and sold at the same price. What makes these tips different from those Kamui knock-offs? That's the point that Agaent17 is trying to make.
I will say this though, for TomHay to be a complete unknown on the forum, and to get where he has by using the forums to promote his tips, he's done a good job.
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How about the fact that everyone who has tried them feels they are of good quality. I suppose that makes them different....
No respect to John Bertone and Kamui, but what was he doing before he jumped into the tip market that makes him different from Tom?
I and a few friends I install tips for have been die-hard Kamui fans for years. We started with the browns and moved to blacks when they came out. They are great tips! Recently, out of curiosity, I purchased a couple of Tom's tips and installed one on a friend's cue and one on a cue of mine. Both of us are pleasantly surprised by the way these tips play - just like a Kamui. In fact, I'd bet they are the same product as Kamui, just with different labling. I will be ordering a lot more, in lieu of Kamui's. Thanks, Tom Hay!!!!!!!
John Bertone is the only authorized master distributor for Kamui products in the USA. Meaning he got hired to fill a position. TomHay created his position by creating/fine tuning his tanning process. I suppose that makes them different....
Hits um Hard, I am not quite not known, completely. You might remember a player by the name of Tommy Kennedy? He was once a US Open Champion. He played with one of my custom cues and with it won more tournaments in a year than he ever did with any other cue.
My Custom Cues also helped sponsor The Florida Open which at one time you needed to sign up weeks in advance to be part of a 128 Man field.
My Custom Cues were also awarded at the Youth Amatuer tournament of the BCA so I could try to help inspire young players that Pool was a Gentlemans and Ladies Game rather than a seedy game played by seedy people.
Enough of that part of my life, just saying I didn't just jump out behind a shadow.
On giving away tips and marketing. I could have just used quotes from PM's and Ebay Feedback but felt that to be much like stealing info, to pay by your wares is a much more honerable thing to do. I know you posted you didn't like to go through Web Sites and everything needed to be on the front page BUT if you were to read through the Kamui Web Site you will read they started out advertising, they got one (1) order. They started to give tips out to try and here we are today.
You asked me to even name the city my tips are made in, I think if Agent 17 was over the top, where would I place you.
You kind of irked me on the durometer thing for two reasons. 1. The test in its trueist form can not be done, your reading is taken 12 MM from the edge of what you are testing. On a 14 MM tip I would love you to show me where I can go 12 MM on a 14 MM tip and not be within 2 MM of an edge? 2. And this was fault of your own, what did Tom Hay do to make enough to retire on? My background is chemistry which would include my Lab and all the testing equipment you could think of to help design plastic laminates, or adhesives if you will to create things like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXz6O195M7w
Myself and the Gentelmen shown played some 8 Ball on a Bar Box before and after. I held back a little letting them win some but after viewing the video I think you will understand why.
I hide from NO ONE. I however don't like to disrupt forums and was hoping by me leaving the thread would quietly vanish. I peeked, everyone knew I would. I just can't take someone claiming I went hiding.
I am now just another poster, lover of Functional Art and the game of Pool. I will no longer be in discussions on Cue Tips of any type.
If you or Agent17 ask about where or how on my tips again my answer will be the same, "I will not give out such info on the WWW, if you want an answer to that, it will be in person". As I said, I hide from no one. Games over guys cause you have the answer I will give everytime already. Kind of makes it easy but lets spell it out IF YOU WANT THE ANSWER I WILL NOT DO IT OVER THE WWW BUT WOULD BE HAPPY TO MEET YOU. Simple enough, nuff said.
My Custom Cues also helped sponsor The Florida Open which at one time you needed to sign up weeks in advance to be part of a 128 Man field.
My Custom Cues were also awarded at the Youth Amatuer tournament of the BCA so I could try to help inspire young players that Pool was a Gentlemans and Ladies Game rather than a seedy game played by seedy people.
Enough of that part of my life, just saying I didn't just jump out behind a shadow.
On giving away tips and marketing. I could have just used quotes from PM's and Ebay Feedback but felt that to be much like stealing info, to pay by your wares is a much more honerable thing to do. I know you posted you didn't like to go through Web Sites and everything needed to be on the front page BUT if you were to read through the Kamui Web Site you will read they started out advertising, they got one (1) order. They started to give tips out to try and here we are today.
You asked me to even name the city my tips are made in, I think if Agent 17 was over the top, where would I place you.
You kind of irked me on the durometer thing for two reasons. 1. The test in its trueist form can not be done, your reading is taken 12 MM from the edge of what you are testing. On a 14 MM tip I would love you to show me where I can go 12 MM on a 14 MM tip and not be within 2 MM of an edge? 2. And this was fault of your own, what did Tom Hay do to make enough to retire on? My background is chemistry which would include my Lab and all the testing equipment you could think of to help design plastic laminates, or adhesives if you will to create things like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXz6O195M7w
Myself and the Gentelmen shown played some 8 Ball on a Bar Box before and after. I held back a little letting them win some but after viewing the video I think you will understand why.
I hide from NO ONE. I however don't like to disrupt forums and was hoping by me leaving the thread would quietly vanish. I peeked, everyone knew I would. I just can't take someone claiming I went hiding.
I am now just another poster, lover of Functional Art and the game of Pool. I will no longer be in discussions on Cue Tips of any type.
If you or Agent17 ask about where or how on my tips again my answer will be the same, "I will not give out such info on the WWW, if you want an answer to that, it will be in person". As I said, I hide from no one. Games over guys cause you have the answer I will give everytime already. Kind of makes it easy but lets spell it out IF YOU WANT THE ANSWER I WILL NOT DO IT OVER THE WWW BUT WOULD BE HAPPY TO MEET YOU. Simple enough, nuff said.
Isn't the whole idea of you creating a new tip, to help people better their game? Why do you slander durometer readings? They seem to hold true across many batches, and geographic zones. And yes, I read Kamui's promoting problem. You seem to be following their footsteps just fine.
And I never heard of you until I read your poll "Which layered tip?" in which we got to choose between Kamui and UltraSkin, but only if we tried them both. What happens when someone already found the tip they like? You going to call them an idiot for spending 3-4x as much on their tip as compared to buying one from you? Because that's the general attitude I get from you. 'I'll make a tip that plays just as good as Kamui/Moori, but I'll make it for pennies on the dollar, and I wont charge a markup, but I need to sell thousands more than Kamui/Moori. Brilliant! I'll put them out of business!' Alas, I've only tried the Kamui Black tips, and I dislike their elasticity as so described by Kamui. Do your tips have the same elasticity effect? Or is that proprietary information?
You can continue to operate however you want TomHay, but remember, you don't get to tell the public what they like and don't like. And if they have a question about your tips such as I did, or Agent17 did, are you going to respond the same way? Ask yourself this, is your secrecy about your tips worth more to you than someones word of mouth?
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I am not slandering the test for hardness just defineing how it is performed. If you don't care for it I can't help it the ASTM write the rules not me.
Now you have me stumped, Mine Pig Leather - Kamui - Pig Leather. Mine designed to give some grab to ball - Kamui designed to give some grab to ball. I would say it fair to assume you didn't like Kamui your not going to like mine. Nothing wrong with that world of tips to choose from.
Yes there is no question in the poll I asked people who voted to have tried both. If they had not how could they vote fairly?
There you have it plain and simple, based on what you say I could have answered just as simply anywhere. Have you looked into any of MadMans tips?
Now you have me stumped, Mine Pig Leather - Kamui - Pig Leather. Mine designed to give some grab to ball - Kamui designed to give some grab to ball. I would say it fair to assume you didn't like Kamui your not going to like mine. Nothing wrong with that world of tips to choose from.
Yes there is no question in the poll I asked people who voted to have tried both. If they had not how could they vote fairly?
There you have it plain and simple, based on what you say I could have answered just as simply anywhere. Have you looked into any of MadMans tips?
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OK....that was kind of my point. According to John, he could barely give Kamui tips away when he started. I suppose he dealt with the same kind of crap as well?
You are really rude and somewhat obtuse. I doubt you can be reasoned with at all.
I already offered you free tips to try at no cost. Why must you continue on your rant?
This is my opinion based on what I've seen so far.
I installed a gold labeled (soft) tip I got from Tom.
It cut nice during install,even better with a dab of water added to side.
I've only installed a few Kamui Blacks,but didn't see anything up to this point that makes them clearly better tham Tom's.
I've only got about 4 hours worth of play on it,but no mushrooming so far,nice feel although different than what I normally prefer,and so far the one HUGE advantage I see to Tom's is they aren't a huge tone-sink like the Kamui is until it gets down thin.
So far this is a good man to do business with,and a fine product. Tommy D.
I installed a gold labeled (soft) tip I got from Tom.
It cut nice during install,even better with a dab of water added to side.
I've only installed a few Kamui Blacks,but didn't see anything up to this point that makes them clearly better tham Tom's.
I've only got about 4 hours worth of play on it,but no mushrooming so far,nice feel although different than what I normally prefer,and so far the one HUGE advantage I see to Tom's is they aren't a huge tone-sink like the Kamui is until it gets down thin.
So far this is a good man to do business with,and a fine product. Tommy D.