Pocket Size versus Business.

to DogsPlayingPool : yes , the easier pockets also = more turnover= more action in the bar situation. missed that part in my earlier post . Thanx
to BayBilliards: I don't actually run a room , I run a bar . Open at 10am , close @ midnite m-th , close 2:30 f&sa , closed sun. have 3 loose Valleys & pull $1500/each from them monthly. Cover rent & power totally - means booze business only has to cover payroll & insurance (which it does and then some !)
Still get a lot of serious players come in , because being on Main St in a well-known resort town , we get an awful lot of chickens to pluck w/a high turnover ( fresh meat every week ).
 
DogsPlayingPool

Yes to your comment about customizing a room. With different size table pockets or different cloths you can get regulars to choose their favorite table based on their skill level. More play that way. Of course the table will eventually become part of the matchup too. Has its pros and cons.
 
Deadon said:
I think you are mistaken on some of your assumptions to start.

First, most all of the players are only social players, there for fun and to have a good time.

Second, they want to drink beer have fun and don't really give a s&&t if the pockets are tight and the balls don't go. As long as they can have a drink, joke with their friends, they will spend the same amount of cash. In fact, I don't think they notice the difference.

Cultivating new players on 5" pockets is not doing them a favor. They won't be able to adjust to the tighter tables when they play somewhere else. Which most developing players do.

Since we tightend the tables at Hardtimes, none of the business from social players has changed. Only a couple of the regular players have made any complaints. BTW, pockets are much less than 4.25".
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That same mechanic tightened the pockets at Malarkey's Pool & Brew in Tacoma, WA.....and over time....the only tables being played...were the 10 Valley coin ops...most all the players that played on the 9fts....left to play somewhere else:rolleyes:....and only since I went in and rebuilt all the rails and recovered 8 of the 11 9ft Brunswick's....changing the pockets to 4 1/2"....did they come back again...so, what does that tell you?

Glen
 
I have been playing pool for 40 some yrs and in that time I have played on alot of different equipment.Back in the day Brunswick anniversary table were the table and it seems as though it played alittle easier. At least you saw alot more break and run outs as opposed today.Diamonds I believe when set-up properly will give the better player that advantage.Problem is their isn't alot of mechanics who know how and not alot of owners who recloth/rerubber a table so it plays the way it should.The pockets are also up for interpretation and I think the tournement people don't want to see break and runs were the other player never gets to the table not very interesting.Thus they raise the precentages of any player running a set lets say 9 and out with tight pockets!With all that said good players will adjust recreational players just want to have fun and make balls. If they get frustrated they won't come back.
 
Let's not forget that people are idiots. Bangers don't notice the difference in table difficulty. I watch people walk into the local pool room all the time, what do they do? They walk past the seven, eight, and nine foot tables (all of which have 5 inch pockets. They stop when they get to the ten footer with 4.5 inch pockets.

The fact that they can't make a ball to save their lives doesn't stop them from "impressing" their dates. Very few people even notice the table they're playing on is huge, much less the pocket size.
 
????

Miya Butreaks said:
Let's not forget that people are idiots. Bangers don't notice the difference in table difficulty. I watch people walk into the local pool room all the time, what do they do? They walk past the seven, eight, and nine foot tables (all of which have 5 inch pockets. They stop when they get to the ten footer with 4.5 inch pockets.

The fact that they can't make a ball to save their lives doesn't stop them from "impressing" their dates. Very few people even notice the table they're playing on is huge, much less the pocket size.
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You must not be an RO. Does that room only keep that one 10 foot table busy? Who plays on the rest of the tables?
 
Miya Butreaks said:
Let's not forget that people are idiots. Bangers don't notice the difference in table difficulty. I watch people walk into the local pool room all the time, what do they do? They walk past the seven, eight, and nine foot tables (all of which have 5 inch pockets. They stop when they get to the ten footer with 4.5 inch pockets.

The fact that they can't make a ball to save their lives doesn't stop them from "impressing" their dates. Very few people even notice the table they're playing on is huge, much less the pocket size.
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hmmm....really? Then what's YOUR reason for all the players leaving Malarkey's Pool & Brew....AFTER the pockets were tightened to 4"....because the idiots....all of a sudden....got smart?:rolleyes:
 
Wags said:
You must not be an RO. Does that room only keep that one 10 foot table busy? Who plays on the rest of the tables?
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It's a university billiards area. If you've ever played in Utah you'll know how sad the pool scene is. At any one time they're lucky to have 3 of 12 tables used. :(

realkingcobra said:
hmmm....really? Then what's YOUR reason for all the players leaving Malarkey's Pool & Brew....AFTER the pockets were tightened to 4"....because the idiots....all of a sudden....got smart?
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LOL, well I guess we should be cautious about generalizing data from a sample to the population. Let's construct a hypothesis around our observances.

In the pool hall I frequent, table conditions have remained at a relatively constant state and the player demographic consists mainly of small, non-frequenting groups.

In Malarkey's you observed a decline in business after a change in table conditions. If the customer demographic at Malarkey's consisted mainly of people who play more frequently than those observed in my area then we may have a good explanation.

The explanation? Assuming the absence of compound variables; those people accustomed to certain table conditions may experience a decline in satisfaction upon an "unfavorable" change in table conditions. So, if this is proven to be a sufficient explanation then yes realkingcobra, the idiots all of a sudden got smart. They were ignorant to one condition and upon exposure to it, changed their behavior.
 
Miya Butreaks said:
It's a university billiards area. If you've ever played in Utah you'll know how sad the pool scene is. At any one time they're lucky to have 3 of 12 tables used.


The explanation? Assuming the absence of compound variables; those people accustomed to certain table conditions may experience a decline in satisfaction upon an "unfavorable" change in table conditions. So, if this is proven to be a sufficient explanation then yes realkingcobra, the idiots all of a sudden got smart. They were ignorant to one condition and upon exposure to it, changed their behavior.
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I just call it the follow the leader sysndrome....just because one person likes one thing....that don't necessarily mean the next 99 people will like it too.:grin:
 
I am a owner myself and visit local rooms from time to time and try to be friends with other owners. I went into a new place and got on a table that was extremely tight and I was thinking that I could not play a single ball. Later I learned it was the tightest table in the place and if I had not learned that I would have NEVER went back. That is from a room owner and a pool player.
 
I think the individual examples posted here on this matter are anecdotal and don't give a real answer. I think Wags is looking at the big picture. He asks everyone if they notice that the onset of the decline in pool and the appearance of tight pockets coincide.

I am not ready to blame tight pockets for the current state of affairs, but IMO, tight pockets have not made pool more popular.
 
If the pockets dictate the kind of position you can get with the CB....then IMOP I don't even want to play on that table.....thats not pool.

I've played on 3" 7/8 and 4" on up........4.5 is sweet all around and I love 4.25 pocket for playing one hole.

Super tight pockets do not promote a professional style of play.....they make for learning a foolish style of play, always shooting a 50yarder b/c you can't hit the balls with speed or it wont fall............If I split the wicket with SPEED and the ball doesn't fall your table sucks bawls, especially if the OB is on the rail and just rattles when hit hard.....BIG PILE OF BS

Stop trying to make pool into snooker.......pool is pool, snooker is snooker.

Thats why they should bring back the 10' table as the championship size.....then you could have a little bigger pocket to compensate for the massive sized playing surface and long shots.

Another food for thought is that the women don't play on very tight tables when you see the matches on ESPN.........the men play on???? OH WAIT THE MEN DON'T EVEN HAVE A TOUR lol..........

Making the pockets tighter is like baseball shrinking the strikezone b/c it would really show who's more "perfect" or making the ball parks alot bigger.....or hell just make the bat or ball smaller?


-Grey Ghost-
 
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its hard to please everybody

I think bad players will be bad players on any pocket size . I have always believed somewhere in the middle of pocket size is the best. Somewhere around 4.50". With 4" being too small and 5" being to loose.

I grew up in tennessee where mostly 7 ft and 8 ft tables are the norm. I spent a couple of years in Tampa,Fl. and most of the poolrooms have 9 ft tables. I probably only saw less than 10 bar tables (or easy tables ) in the whole Tampa Bay area.

Strokers in palm harbor has the best business of any poolroom i have ever seen. They have all 9 ft tables. Having said that , pocket size and/or table size isnt really the key to getting people playing pool.

I believe having alot of stuff for people to do is the key. They will get in a habit of coming to your place and eventully start shooting some pool also. We started a blind draw dart tourney last week. I saw 10 or 15 people that are dart players that never had been in my place before. Since our dart tourney , those new customers have been back to play darts, ordered food and checked out pool balls too.

I dont believe just pool alone is enough of a draw to make a good business. However once you establish a good business , then and only then will you develop a strong pool following. IMHO
 
Any player giving up weight wants to play on a tight pocket table, giving him more of an advantage. APA players in my home town dont like diamond tables and want valleys. Pool players dont spend enough money to support a bar or pool room. But the under 8 handicapped APA type players seem to spend the money on beer,food and quarters in the tables.
 
It's not hard for a pool room to have a mix of tables with looser pockets for the casual bangers and tournament level tables with tight pockets form the serious regulars
 
Hadicapps are the reason for the decline??!!!

I went into my local pool room where I play in a handicapped pool league. This was on a monday when we usually have 40-50 league players in the place for our matches. The session had ended the week before so I was hoping that maybe a couple of the other addicts would be there to hit some balls with. Not only was nobody there from the league, there was no one in the whole place other than two high school kids on a bar box and a couple of regulars sleeping on the couches!!!! I was shocked that not one other person out of 50 or so league players came in to hit some balls.

I was talking to the room manager and he believes the the handicapped leagues have killed the pool rooms. "NO ONE COMES TO PRACTICE ANYMORE, BECAUSE YOU DONT NEED TO IMPROVE YOUR GAME TO BE ABLE TO WIN NOW, WITH THE HANDICAPPS"

I had never thought about the leagues like that before but it does seem like the casual league players only frequent the room on league night and still have a pretty good chance to win their match without having to regularly work or practice a couple of times a week. So in the overall picture the players who used to come in and practice are now in leagues where they don't have to keep improving before they have the chance to win??!!!!

Just an observation from a future room owner


Gordon Graham,
Diamond Certified Mechanic, RKC trained
Table Calibration Speciallist
BIGFOOT BILLIARD SERVICE
LAS VEGAS
425-275-8255
 
PUTT4DACA$$H said:
I went into my local pool room where I play in a handicapped pool league. This was on a monday when we usually have 40-50 league players in the place for our matches. The session had ended the week before so I was hoping that maybe a couple of the other addicts would be there to hit some balls with. Not only was nobody there from the league, there was no one in the whole place other than two high school kids on a bar box and a couple of regulars sleeping on the couches!!!! I was shocked that not one other person out of 50 or so league players came in to hit some balls.

I was talking to the room manager and he believes the the handicapped leagues have killed the pool rooms. "NO ONE COMES TO PRACTICE ANYMORE, BECAUSE YOU DONT NEED TO IMPROVE YOUR GAME TO BE ABLE TO WIN NOW, WITH THE HANDICAPPS"

I had never thought about the leagues like that before but it does seem like the casual league players only frequent the room on league night and still have a pretty good chance to win their match without having to regularly work or practice a couple of times a week. So in the overall picture the players who used to come in and practice are now in leagues where they don't have to keep improving before they have the chance to win??!!!!

Just an observation from a future room owner


Gordon Graham,
Diamond Certified Mechanic, RKC trained
Table Calibration Speciallist
BIGFOOT BILLIARD SERVICE
LAS VEGAS
425-275-8255
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The problem with that theory is that it assumes that if leagues were all scratch that players would be at the room practicing on off nights. And that then further assumes that everyone in leagues is serious about their game. I'm not sure that's true. I think it is more true that the average league participant is not a serious player but rather is in it for recreation primarily. I think it is more plausible that without the handicapped leagues your room owner would still be pretty much dead on off nights and in addition would not have the crowd he enjoys on league nights. Plus, those in the league that are serious would still be striving to improve, handicap or not.

I don't need every league player who is serious about the game to take my previous statement personally. I play in a weekly league and practice regularly. I have a table at home. Like you I am always striving to improve. That's just the way I am about my pursuits. But a lot of recreational players just are not. They look at it as a fun night out and not much more. Simply put, they don't love the game but rather enjoy it for the other things it brings them, mainly a night out having food and drinks with friends. Frankly, that's what leagues such as the APA are designed around and there is nothing wrong with that. For them a little more success on tables with bigger pockets is enjoyable.
 
notnilc20 said:
Absolutely Profound? a bit over-reaction no? I think you took my statement a bit too literally. I'm just saying that if you have two rooms and one table is more "player friendly" than the next, people would rather go there than play on the tables that aren't so forgiving.

If you think that's wrong or "Absolutely Profound"....fine that's your opinion. But I know for a fact that in my hometown as a College student when I was just a ball banger and had ball banger friends, we'd always go to the more player friendly room. The reason was just that....we hated to see the ball rattle out time and again. You're probably thinking well we should've practiced more to play better so that wouldn't happen. Now you're just thinking like a real pool player. Not the typical customer on a Friday/Saturday night who doesn't have the time or will to practice to play better. They are merely there for entertainment purposes only. Plus, you know those days when you just can't get anything to fall...everyone has em.....that can be quite frustrating right? We as pool players understand that those days will come and go....but for the average joe....that frustration might lead to them not coming back for awhile.
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Sorry, I know that his is an old post, but it really made me laugh. The thought that "a college student" (now a college grad???) does not know the meaning of the word profound is tragically funny to me. With education like this, God help us all. Now you can proceed with your discussion...
 
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