Pool 101 - How would you play this?

klockdoc

klockdoc

ughhhhhhhhhh
Silver Member
I was playing around with the WEI table, so I decided to do a break on a nine ball rack. This is the first break.

I saw a troublesome area here and thought I would post it for others to discuss.

Here is the scenario. Your opponent broke and came up dry. It is your shot. How do you get to the 4 from here.

PS: You can map out the whole run if you desire.

CueTable Help

 
Id use draw, off the one to get onto the two, from there, Id use a stun draw for a bank on the three, as I feel youd get into trouble trying to get around the 7 or trying to play position on the wrong side of the 3 for a shot into the down table pocket...

Id use high inside to bank the three, when I tried it, I doubled the rail for positon on the 4..


CueTable Help





I'll map out the rest as soon as I get back to the table.



SPINDOKTOR
 
I don't agree with going for the run out here. The safe Steev diagrammed is what I like in this situation. No badges of courage have ever been awarded for running out racks such as this - always play it smart and recognize when the rack has danger spots that will cause you trouble later on.

In this situation, playing safe awards you 2 options -

1) lock him up and get rewarded with ball in hand
2) lock him up and leave him kicking - maybe he'll disturb that 3 ball

Either way, you remain in control by getting maximum results from spending minimal mental energy - while your opponent is left scratching his head and stabbing in the dark trying to contact the 1 ball.
 
Seems very straightforward to me.

Practically a firm center ball hit on the 1 carries you past the 5 to the 2 ball, but you'd probably need to hit it with low left, draw-dragging a little so you don't have to hit so hard. Less speed = more likely to keep an outside angle on the 2.

You want that angle on the 2 so that you can either stun over above the 3 (as shown) or follow with high left to bounce off the short rail to the 3 if you're a bit too straight.

.. or... here's the wacky fun part, if you get really straight on the 2, you carom the 2 in off the 4. So you can cut the 2 a lot playing it that way, manufacturing an angle if you don't already have it.

From the 3 to the 4 is pretty much automatic. If you got on the 3 at all and can make it, you'd have to screw the pooch hard to not get the 4, unless you knocked it out of the pocket earlier.

gettingto4.jpg
 
CreeDo said:
From the 3 to the 4 is pretty much automatic. If you got on the 3 at all and can make it, you'd have to screw the pooch hard to not get the 4, unless you knocked it out of the pocket earlier.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's why I mentioned "to the 4".:D I wanted to see how people were going to get on the 3, if they were going that route.

Lots of interesting suggestions here already.
 
man you guys got me feelin like a chump i was stumped trying to get on the 3 forget about getting to the 4.

i don't really like that shot suggested on the 1. you don't stun it enough or too much and you could end up clipping the 5 and going in the corner or just go straight to the corner.
 
CreeDo said:
Seems very straightforward to me.

Practically a firm center ball hit on the 1 carries you past the 5 to the 2 ball, but you'd probably need to hit it with low left, draw-dragging a little so you don't have to hit so hard. Less speed = more likely to keep an outside angle on the 2.

You want that angle on the 2 so that you can either stun over above the 3 (as shown) or follow with high left to bounce off the short rail to the 3 if you're a bit too straight.

.. or... here's the wacky fun part, if you get really straight on the 2, you carom the 2 in off the 4. So you can cut the 2 a lot playing it that way, manufacturing an angle if you don't already have it.

From the 3 to the 4 is pretty much automatic. If you got on the 3 at all and can make it, you'd have to screw the pooch hard to not get the 4, unless you knocked it out of the pocket earlier.

gettingto4.jpg
Click to expand...



Playing safety with this kind of layout is for the wuzz, 9-ball is not for the
feint of heart. This is how you suppose to play it, except if you fall straight
on the 2 ball, that's the time to play the bank to the side pocket. Playing
the deuce off the 4 might get you into trouble, you'll never know where
the 4 might end up. I wish I had the time to study how to set up shots on
the wei table... :(
 
The stun will hit the five. You need a little draw that will make an arc. That means you hit the rail way closer to the corner pocket and position on the two would be closer to the eight and harder to control.

Still I would go for it and shoot a safety if I had to later.
 
gopi-1 said:
Playing safety with this kind of layout is for the wuzz, 9-ball is not for the
feint of heart. This is how you suppose to play it, except if you fall straight
on the 2 ball, that's the time to play the bank to the side pocket. Playing
the deuce off the 4 might get you into trouble, you'll never know where
the 4 might end up. I wish I had the time to study how to set up shots on
the wei table... :(
Click to expand...

IMO, the main issue with shooting one like that is the speed of the cue ball. IMO, it is too difficult to maintain control of the cue ball while pocketing the one and missing the 5 ball. I don't believe that some of the cue ball destinations are probable or possible when you factor in the angle with the cue ball speed required to get there.

9 times out of 10 you will overshoot the "diagrammed position" on the 2 ball. Some of the cue ball paths diagramed in this thread look nice, but are not high percentage or accurate when factoring in cue ball speed. IMO, if you try to kill the cue ball at all, you will crash into the 5 ball a large majority of the time. If you miss the 5, you will probably have the cue ball go farther uptable than you want it to.

Compare all of that to an easy lock up - and I will play the percentages all day long and be your "wuzz" with ball in hand a few seconds later.
:D
 
Yeah Blackjack... All those diagrammed shots that miss the 5 are doubtful to end up where they are diagrammed.

Russ
 
Blackjack said:
IMO, the main issue with shooting one like that is the speed of the cue ball. IMO, it is too difficult to maintain control of the cue ball while pocketing the one and missing the 5 ball. I don't believe that some of the cue ball destinations are probable or possible when you factor in the angle with the cue ball speed required to get there.

9 times out of 10 you will overshoot the "diagrammed position" on the 2 ball. Some of the cue ball paths diagramed in this thread look nice, but are not high percentage or accurate when factoring in cue ball speed. IMO, if you try to kill the cue ball at all, you will crash into the 5 ball a large majority of the time. If you miss the 5, you will probably have the cue ball go farther uptable than you want it to.

Compare all of that to an easy lock up - and I will play the percentages all day long and be your "wuzz" with ball in hand a few seconds later.
:D
Click to expand...

I don't know why you replied to me when I mentioned the word "wuzz",
because I didn't pertain it to any one in particular, but I guess truth hurts.
FWIW, here's what I have in mind...

Theres a huge landing area between the 5 and the corner pocket, shoot the
CB at 3:30 (between the 3 and the 4), medium speed and I will guarantee
you, you will fall on the right side of the 2. Depending on how confident are
you with your stroke, you may have self doubt and might end up having a
longer shot on the 2, but practicing this shot often to know how your CB
reacts to your english will eventually get you there. The english shoudn't
be extreme, and use the hour hand instead of the minute hand, if you know
what I mean.

If you can control the CB behind the 5 while playing "wuzz", then the shot
that I just described wouldn't give you any fits...
 
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gopi-1,

Do you even have any idea who Blackjack is??

He's a pro who has competed on tour quite a bit. Hes telling you the cue ball path you are diagramming is not very probable at all. And I agree. If you think he's wrong, then go to a table and tape yourself hitting this shot, and show us how good you hit it.

Since you didn't understand when BJ said it, I' ll say it another way:

You are so thin on the 1, that you have to either strike the 1 with a little speed, or draw-drag off the 1 to avoid the 5. If you hit it hard enough to stun past the 5, you are travelling to the wrong side of the 2. If you draw drag it, it is extremely easy to draw 1/2 an inch too much and then you are travelling two rails towards the 8, standing a chance of either getting hooked, on top of the 8, or on the wrong side of the 2.

Now, if you are willing to acceot the inherent risks with this shot, then by all means. No one is faulting you for taking the offense route. But the position shot you are advocating is not nearly as "simple" as you make it out to be.

No offense, but you would not be the first person to come on here, take a look at a wei diagram without trying it on a real table, and proclaim the position route to be "easy".

There have been times BJ or someone else said a shot was physically impossible, and someone insisted it was "easy", until they actually tried it on a real pool table, and had to eat crow.

Russ
 
Russ Chewning said:
gopi-1,

Do you even have any idea who Blackjack is??

He's a pro who has competed on tour quite a bit. Hes telling you the cue ball path you are diagramming is not very probable at all. And I agree. If you think he's wrong, then go to a table and tape yourself hitting this shot, and show us how good you hit it.

Since you didn't understand when BJ said it, I' ll say it another way:

You are so thin on the 1, that you have to either strike the 1 with a little speed, or draw-drag off the 1 to avoid the 5. If you hit it hard enough to stun past the 5, you are travelling to the wrong side of the 2. If you draw drag it, it is extremely easy to draw 1/2 an inch too much and then you are travelling two rails towards the 8, standing a chance of either getting hooked, on top of the 8, or on the wrong side of the 2.

Now, if you are willing to acceot the inherent risks with this shot, then by all means. No one is faulting you for taking the offense route. But the position shot you are advocating is not nearly as "simple" as you make it out to be.

No offense, but you would not be the first person to come on here, take a look at a wei diagram without trying it on a real table, and proclaim the position route to be "easy".

There have been times BJ or someone else said a shot was physically impossible, and someone insisted it was "easy", until they actually tried it on a real pool table, and had to eat crow.

Russ
Click to expand...


... and who said it was easy?

I know who he is, and it's a given he's better than me, but I know one
thing for sure, this is how I will play it. Shooting the shot like what I've
previously have described will widen the CB's traveling path just enough
to miss the 5. Once the CB hits the first rail/head rail, the reverse english
that you've previously applied will reverse itself before it hits the second/
short rail. I'm just giving a different view on how to shoot this shot. Now
if we go about in this world by just bowing because of somebody's supposedly
impeccable reputation and knowledge, then we won't discover anything new
in this world anymore.

I'm sure Blackjack's talking from experience and it's better to be safe than
sorry but there's some things in this world that you gotta take by the horns.
If safety play is his comfort zone, then so be it, but I'm sure there's a ton
peeps out there who wouldn't hesitate to take his chances and go for it.
If this kind of spread was for the world 9 ball championships with the score
being hill-hill, would you shoot it differently and play it wuzzy safe too? It's
all about the circumstances surrounding this shot too. The prestige or stakes
that are involve, the player you're up against, how big the stage you're on,
and how confident are you with your skills. I, for one wouldn't play safe if it
is for the world 9 ball championship and against Efren. I will put my own faith
in my own hands and let Efren stuck in his chair and squirming.

The shot that I said might or might not work, but it works both ways. The
safety play might blow up in your face too.

Anyways, have you tried what I suggested? A humble pie also leaves a sour
taste in the mouth, if you get my drift...
 
Last edited:
gopi-1 said:
... and who said it was easy?

I know who he is, and it's a given he's better than me, but I know one
thing for sure, this is how I will play it. Shooting the shot like what I've
previously have described will widen the CB's traveling path just enough
to miss the 5. Once the CB hits the first rail/head rail, the reverse english
that you've previously applied will reverse itself before it hits the second/
short rail. I'm just giving a different view on how to shoot this shot. Now
if we go about in this world by just bowing because of somebody's supposedly
impeccable reputation and knowledge, then we won't discover anything new
in this world anymore.

I'm sure Blackjack's talking from experience and it's better to be safe than
sorry but there's some things in this world that you gotta take by the horns.
If safety play is his comfort zone, then so be it, but I'm sure there's a ton
peeps out there who wouldn't hesitate to take his chances and go for it.
If this kind of spread was for the world 9 ball championships with the score
being hill-hill, would you shoot it differently and play it wuzzy safe too? It's
all about the circumstances surrounding this shot too. The prestige or stakes
that are involve, the player you're up against, how big the stage you're on,
and how confident are you with your skills. I, for one wouldn't play safe if it
is for the world 9 ball championship and against Efren. I will put my own faith
in my own hands and let Efren stuck in his chair and squirming.

The shot that I said might or might not work, but it works both ways. The
safety play might blow up in your face too.

Anyways, have you tried what I suggested? A humble pie also leaves a sour
taste in the mouth, if you get my drift...
Click to expand...

I find it hilariously ironic that you talk about "humble pie", when everything else you talk about in the post comes down to personal ego, i.e.:

"wuzzy safe" (insinuating that playing a safe is somehow "unmanly"), "prestige", "how big the stage you're on."

It seems to me that you are playing not necessarily to win, but to be seen as "the man". Are you "that guy" in the pool hall who, whilst practicing, hits a good shot and then looks around to see if anyone notices?

Here's the funny thing.... I don't personally agree with Blackjack's shot, and would play a soft shot with follow and slight inside english to fall in between the 7 and 8, because I happen to hit this shot well. I am not saying his shot in not just as good, but I might actually try for the runout here...only because I feel fairly confident in making the 1 and getting a shot at the 2, and I figure depending on how I fall on the 2, I can still play safe if necessary on the 3..

So, to sum up, I am not taking BJ's side here because I support his shot, (which is a good shot.. he can even leak out from behind the 5 and still hook his opponent) but because I think he's right about your shot. It's not nearly as easy to control as you think. But again, if you want to try it as a "video challenge", game on!

Here's the challenge.. Find a local trustworthy AZ'er with a video camera...
Have them set up the balls as in this diagram.. And we'll let you shoot this pattern. You win the challenge if you can run through the 3 ball with position on the 4 more times than Blackjack can execute a dead-to-rights-got-you-hooked-behind-another-ball safety.

For you to denigrate BJ's proposed shot, you gotta offer a better alternative. You need to show that your solution wins more often.

Russ
 
the run out

tad of bottom left to drag the cue ball to the left off the bottom rail and to the long rail but not farther out than the two BALL from the rail. then shoot the two soft touch it with a little top above center to drift over to the other side rail to shoot the three up table past the side pocket in the corner.when you shoot the 3 draw the cue close to the bottom rail this way you can keep the natural angle AND GO 1 RAIL TO SHOOT 5 BALL IN THE BOTTOM LEFT POCKET shoot the five with bottom right draw go two rails up for the sixof position to the five
 
Russ Chewning said:
I find it hilariously ironic that you talk about "humble pie", when everything else you talk about in the post comes down to personal ego, i.e.:

"wuzzy safe" (insinuating that playing a safe is somehow "unmanly"), "prestige", "how big the stage you're on."

It seems to me that you are playing not necessarily to win, but to be seen as "the man". Are you "that guy" in the pool hall who, whilst practicing, hits a good shot and then looks around to see if anyone notices?

Here's the funny thing.... I don't personally agree with Blackjack's shot, and would play a soft shot with follow and slight inside english to fall in between the 7 and 8, because I happen to hit this shot well. I am notsaying his shot in not just as good, but I might actually try for the runout here...only because I feel fairly confident in making the 1 and getting a shot at the 2, and I figure depending on how I fall on the 2, I can still play safe if necessary on the 3..

So, to sum up, I am not taking BJ's side here because I support his shot, (which is a good shot.. he can even leak out from behind the 5 and still hook his opponent) but because I think he's right about your shot. It's not nearly as easy to control as you think. But again, if you want to try it as a "video challenge", game on!

Here's the challenge.. Find a local trustworthy AZ'er with a video camera...
Have them set up the balls as in this diagram.. And we'll let you shoot this pattern. You win the challenge if you can run through the 3 ball with position on the 4 more times than Blackjack can execute a dead-to-rights-got-you-hooked-behind-another-ball safety.

For you to denigrate BJ's proposed shot, you gotta offer a better alternative. You need to show that your solution wins more often.

Russ
Click to expand...



Let me clear things up, I did not denigrate Blackjack or his proposed shot,
I was giving my offensive alternative and how I honestly think about
playing safe with this kind of layout is not my cup of tea, and he quoted
me on this. You and I both agree that we're both confident that a runout
is a probability here, or at least a good position for the 2 while pocketing
the 1 ball at the same time, so no argument here, but have you tried what
I suggested yet? If it doesn't work for you, then I say different strokes for
different folks. You have your own offensive pattern, I have mine and
Blackjack is going for the chokehold, no problem with that. He will definitely
make more good safety shots than me getting position on the 2, because
he's a pro, and I'm just a local barbanger, so that's a given.

I've been a little bit rusty since I set up camp here in the US 4 years ago,
not unlike back home (Philippines) were you get to play 24/7, but I'll try my
best to get in stroke again and tape the shot for you. It won't be easy
since I found it the hard way that life here in the US is all work and pay
the bills, no fun and games...
 
Gopi

I am not insulted by anything that you have written here - my personal preference in thsi situation is to play safe in an attempt to gain a tactical advantage so that I can open the rack up another way.

From the layout provided, it is not likely to open up. When you play the percentages, you will learn how to avoid going for a runout that isn't there - but - you have to recognize it first.

My thinking is like this - if I go for the 1 ball, these things can happen:

1) I can miss the shot completely
2) If I miss, I will probably open the table trying to get position on the 2

-OR-

1) I can pocket the one and attempt to get on the 2
2) I can crash into the 5 (miss proper position on the 2)
3) I can crash into the 8 (miss proper position on the 2)
4) I can come too far (miss proper position on the 2)

That's enough red flags for me to re-evaluate my options and look for alternatives.

There is no right or wrong way - and if you think ducking or playing safe if the "wuss" way out, then IMO prepare yourself to lose a lot of games with that strategy. Its not realistic to go for everything in every situation.
 
Blackjack said:
Gopi

I am not insulted by anything that you have written here - my personal preference in thsi situation is to play safe in an attempt to gain a tactical advantage so that I can open the rack up another way.

From the layout provided, it is not likely to open up. When you play the percentages, you will learn how to avoid going for a runout that isn't there - but - you have to recognize it first.

My thinking is like this - if I go for the 1 ball, these things can happen:

1) I can miss the shot completely
2) If I miss, I will probably open the table trying to get position on the 2

-OR-

1) I can pocket the one and attempt to get on the 2
2) I can crash into the 5 (miss proper position on the 2)
3) I can crash into the 8 (miss proper position on the 2)
4) I can come too far (miss proper position on the 2)

That's enough red flags for me to re-evaluate my options and look for alternatives.

There is no right or wrong way - and if you think ducking or playing safe if the "wuss" way out, then IMO prepare yourself to lose a lot of games with that strategy. Its not realistic to go for everything in every situation.
Click to expand...


Sorry if I ruffled your feathers a little bit.

You're right on all points Blackjack, and I didn't say that going for a safety
in this kind of situation is wrong too, let's just say I'm a kind of guy who's
always going for the KO instead of an armbar. I have never ever work in
all my 43 years I was in the Philippines, all I did was gamble, pool, cards,
horseracing, you name it, I play it. This is probably the way I was brought
up, you can't let up when it involves your family's future meals, and this
served me in good stead. I still own a decent 5 bedroom house and 2 cars
back home, which is considered a luxury there and it all came because I
was taking risks almost all the time. I had my own share of losses too but
I'm still ahead in this race. I've read that you've been there (PI) at least a
couple of times and I'm sure you can relate, it's a dog eat dog down there,
literally and figuratively speaking! :D

It's probably because of this stubborn and inate Filipino traits that you
can't give no quarters, take no prisoners type of thinking. I grew up in a
tough neighborhood, which I haven't obviously shaken off.

The thing that I've noticed is, most Americans think and play analytically,
play smart, cut losses to the minimum and live to fight another day, which
is the smart thing to do, but in the Philippines, there's no tomorrow. Either
you win or skip a meal.

I am always looking forward to your posts because I always learn something
new everyday, hope it's the same with you sir...
 
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