Pool, a Game of Skill, Legal to Gamble in TN

JAM

JAM

I am the storm
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An 85-year-old, the owner of a pool room named Orval's Billiards in Valley Forge, Tennessee, was charged with gambling promotion and possession of a gambling device or record.

The investigation began when Sheriff Dexter Lunceford passed on information he had received to Deputy Chief Investigator Mike Little on Tuesday that illegal gambling machines were being operated at the billiards parlor.

The pool being played in the business was a game of skill and was legal,” Sheriff Lunceford said. The gambling sideline was not only illegal, but it attracted a crowd that committed other crimes, such as drug violations.

Interestingly, it is legal to gamble on a pool table in Tennessee, as it is considered a "game of skill." Good to know. :D

Read more here--> Gambling charges placed on 85-year-old Carter County business owner [Retrieved 30 March 2016]
 

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Actually that holds true in most places where 2 individuals are placing a wager on a pool game between each other.

It's when others, I.E. railbirds, etc that are not participants in the game of skill, place a wager on its outcome, that is also considered gambling & illegal. It's a language thing in the laws in most states.
 
Shoot the fish

From what Ive been told there is a new game at the Sweepstakes Places that fits this bill, you shoot the fish and makes that a game of skill and now that qualifies under NC law. I would imagine it would work other places as well.
 
It is not legal. I worked at the Golden Cue on Winchester in Memphis years ago right after the police busted the place and hauled all the players off to jail. If money touches the table for any reason, or in money changes hands at the table you will be arrested. I have not heard of any changes to this.
 
Colonel said:
Actually that holds true in most places where 2 individuals are placing a wager on a pool game between each other.

It's when others, I.E. railbirds, etc that are not participants in the game of skill, place a wager on its outcome, that is also considered gambling & illegal. It's a language thing in the laws in most states.
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This is my understanding as well, in most states. The only item I would add is that I don't believe the owner of the establish can do this. At least in some cases.

Will Prout
 
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ChopStick said:
It is not legal. I worked at the Golden Cue on Winchester in Memphis years ago right after the police busted the place and hauled all the players off to jail. If money touches the table for any reason, or in money changes hands at the table you will be arrested. I have not heard of any changes to this.
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I am sorry but this is wrong.
 
Anyone can bet on their own skills just not on anyone else's. Drs., lawyers. judges etc. do it all the time playing golf.
 
ChopStick said:
It is not legal. I worked at the Golden Cue on Winchester in Memphis years ago right after the police busted the place and hauled all the players off to jail. If money touches the table for any reason, or in money changes hands at the table you will be arrested. I have not heard of any changes to this.
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Same happened here in the 90s. Police said if they came in the pool room and saw pennies under the rails somebody was going to jail. So we all started using metal washers under the rails.
 
DoubleA said:
Anyone can bet on their own skills just not on anyone else's. Drs., lawyers. judges etc. do it all the time playing golf.
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The problem occurs with the billiard room itself. Two people gambling and the room charging them to do so in the form of table time will be charged with profiting from a gambling enterprize. It is a stupid thing to even get involved even if you think you are right. You have a business making a nice living, are you going to jeopardize everything you have so a few guys can play some $20.00 9 ball? In Florida you will lose your beverage license.

I have a friend who had a very popular liquor bar I am talking like a million a year gross. He was closed up for three months and lucky he was able to get open again at all. Know what he got busted for? A bartender selling football cards. That was all it took for them to pull his beverage license. You can argue this any way you want but the room owner just has too much to lose. The laws can be very hard to interpret as well as ambiguous.

Also, in many cities and counties they frown on pool rooms anyway and will actually pass laws making it hard if not impossible to even open a pool room period. When you stand in front of a city commission as I have, you discover very quickly they don't like you from the start. If it is a close call, you lose.
 
Since I believe this would be a matter for state law, one would be wise to check on the law in your own state, rather than taking what is said about other states.

Also, just because the police say it is illegal for two players to gamble with each other doesn't mean they are right. Of course, proving them wrong (if they are) by getting arrested and going to court can be pretty expensive.

Gideon
 
I know for a while they had problems with Memphis PD Organized Crime Unit hounding The Rack about the Cherry Master machines,but I've never heard of a soul being arrested for gambling on pool in TN.

In my little town,I've gambled IN FRONT of the police without even a thought of being questioned let alone arrested ;). Tommy D.
 
pfduser said:
Same happened here in the 90s. Police said if they came in the pool room and saw pennies under the rails somebody was going to jail. So we all started using metal washers under the rails.
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Sounds clever but you never want to push anything in their face. You will find the next week you have an air conditioner dripping on the sidewalk and get written up. Fire exits need to be changed, electrical inspections, cars ticked because they are not parked properly. You don't make enemies out of the people who can make your life nice or a nightmare.
 
pfduser said:
Same happened here in the 90s. Police said if they came in the pool room and saw pennies under the rails somebody was going to jail. So we all started using metal washers under the rails.
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Just some cops trying to push their weight around or they were ignorant of the law. Ignorance of the law is actually very common with lawmen. Just check the TCA and you will see that gambling on your own skill is not illegal.
 
Here is how they do it here in TN .

Cops walk in undercover and ask the lady at the counter for a rack of balls and tell her that they are going to play a game of pool for $2 or what ever . She does not tell them that GAMBLING is ILLEGAL in TN blah blah blah and lets them go play . They come back after playing 1 game and paying off and tell her about it and BLAMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM . The owner is charged with promoting gambling in Tn for not informing them its illegal . This has happened right here in my town . Its about the same as you seeing someone commit a crime and not telling on them . Oh and betting is betting in the eyes of the law and if they are not getting their part of it in TN [ aka Tn Lottery ] then your gonna get busted for it if they want to . Sounds like they had a cool sheriff that was not gonna push the issue but here in my town they will and HAVE .
 
When I was a teenager in SEMO many years ago, I drank beer with the Prosecuting Attorney of Dunklin County in a members only bar where you had to be 21 and a member to even get in the door. I was neither 21 or a member and I played pool for money and drank beer with him sitting right there watching. I was about 17 at the time and he knew it.

I also gambled and drank with the Deputy Sheriff of Pemiscot County in bars in his county and mine during the same time frame. He used to hang out in the pool hall where I worked as a kid.

What has the world come to?
 
HawaiianEye said:
When I was a teenager in SEMO many years ago, I drank beer with the Prosecuting Attorney of Dunklin County in a members only bar where you had to be 21 and a member to even get in the door. I was neither 21 or a member and I played pool for money and drank beer with him sitting right there watching. I was about 17 at the time and he knew it.

I also gambled and drank with the Deputy Sheriff of Pemiscot County in bars in his county and mine during the same time frame. He used to hang out in the pool hall where I worked as a kid.

What has the world come to?
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Where was the pool hall you worked in as a kid?
 
pfduser said:
Same happened here in the 90s. Police said if they came in the pool room and saw pennies under the rails somebody was going to jail. So we all started using metal washers under the rails.
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I remember the police came into the pool hall in the middle of the night probably around 3am looking for a suspect that had ran from them. He wasn't there but the place was packed and action was a hummin . Every pool table going ( around 25 or so ) and like six different card tables going with cash games. The cops didn't worry about the pool, only the card tables with cash on them. They just warned the Houseman and from there on out match sticks were used for all card games and police never said another word about it.
 
spktur said:
Where was the pool hall you worked in as a kid?
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About 17 miles West from where you grew up.

You asked me the same question in post #16 of this old thread. My memory is still working.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=240953&highlight=Herman+trout

I worked at the Sportsman's Club. It has been closed for many years as a pool hall. It was a bar after that. I don't know if it is even still there now. There were two pool halls owned by the same guy...the Sportsman's Club and the Brown Derby. The Brown Derby has been closed for years also.

The Brown Derby was like a recreation center...no alcohol, no cursing, kids were allowed, etc.

The Sportsman's Club was a pool hall and bar on one side (had 8 or so pool tables and 3 snooker tables and a bar table) and a drive-thru and walk-in liquor store on the other side. The law was you had to be 21 to come inside but I worked there from about the age of 12 or so until I was 18. I probably averaged about 40 hours a week playing pool there for 4 or 5 straight years. I went there every day after school and stayed until they closed and usually played all day until they closed on Saturdays. The owner would stake me and send me to bars to play people. He still lives there and I talk to him on the phone occasionally.

I played over at the Idle Hour on occasion...I don't know if it is there now either. I played all over...the Cardwell Country Club on the MO/AR line, the Long Branch Club in Dyersburg, TN, the 108 Club in Arbyrd, and almost every bar for miles around. I was able to drink at every place I went in and they all knew I wasn't even old enough to go in. When you had backers with lots of money to gamble with, they left you alone.

The Deputy Sheriff I mentioned was named Gene and was part owner of the Chaperell steak house and bar where you lived. He played good pool and liked to gamble.
 
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Tobby said:
Here is how they do it here in TN .

Cops walk in undercover and ask the lady at the counter for a rack of balls and tell her that they are going to play a game of pool for $2 or what ever . She does not tell them that GAMBLING is ILLEGAL in TN blah blah blah and lets them go play . They come back after playing 1 game and paying off and tell her about it and BLAMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM . The owner is charged with promoting gambling in Tn for not informing them its illegal . This has happened right here in my town . Its about the same as you seeing someone commit a crime and not telling on them . Oh and betting is betting in the eyes of the law and if they are not getting their part of it in TN [ aka Tn Lottery ] then your gonna get busted for it if they want to . Sounds like they had a cool sheriff that was not gonna push the issue but here in my town they will and HAVE .
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Actually according to the TCA never gonna stick.. What town in Tennessee are you from? Local gaming commission tried to shut down free roll poker... Just took them getting a really good education and threatened with a lawsuit before they backed off... Some rooms are still afraid over the Jack(ass)Boot Thuggery to restart.....
 
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