Pool Article In The NY Times

[JAM]

...Pool is just fine. Pro Pool is another story.

I'll stop ranting now.

I could not agree with you more. Your thoughts on the topic reflect my opinion as well.

The leagues is where it's at today in the United States as it pertains to the popularity of pool.

In sum, pool is a recreational GAME in the United States. Pool is a SPORT in Philippines, as well as other countries. Therein lies the difference.

American custom-made cues are exported and sold in overseas countries, because there is a good market for custom-made cues there. Production cues made overseas are imported to the United States because cost seems to be the determining factor for the American market.

The lot of existing professional pool players is dwindling in the U.S. The American competition for young up-and-coming super stars like Shane Van Boening is not the same as it was several decades ago for American pros.

Many independent pool promoters, with the exception of DCC and U.S. Open and a few others, quit promoting annual events, i.e., Glass City Open. The suffered financial loss and could not turn a profit. Many of these independent promoters kept these events going because of their passion for pool, but there comes a time when you must cut your losses and move on.

Regional tours offer the best bang for the buck in the United States for professional players. The governing body of professional pool for men does not seem to be able to come up with a colorful tour, other than piggy-backing off events that are produced by independent promoters.

Most of the road agents, pool hustlers, and action men from yesteryear are tournament soldiers today. There is an abundance of opinions about this breed of pool player. Either you love 'em or you hate 'em.

The American tournament trail infrastructure is crumbling. I believe that soon the American tournament soldiers will be forced emigrate to an overseas tournament trail if they want to pursue their niche in pool as a sport.

JAM

 

[vagabond]

but let's call it what it really was...stealing, or maybe more politely theft by deception. Of course the old saying does ring true I guess "You can't con an honest man" but you get what I mean.

.

hi JCIN,

There has not been any change in my position and in the past I posted on these internet forums defending the art of hustling.You can call it ``theft by deception`` if an unsuspecting grand ma was taken advantage off.Every pool player knows that deceptive practices ( hiding the true speed ) are ingrained in the subculture of pool world.
Hustling is an art and I defend it till I die.

 

[Danny Kuykendal]

JIm, They outlawed smoking here in Cal and I lost about 10% of my biness right away and lobbied to try and get smoking allowed back in. Didn't work of course and it took a few years for the customers to come back in who were smokers.

I don't really believe it's a smoking thing, it's a downward trend in pool. Lou Butera and I worked for the same company back in about 1982, and he noted to me that the popularity in pool is on a seven year cycle. It ebbs and flows and will hit peaks and then valleys, but always comes back into popularity. Too many people play for it not to be popular at some point and time.

I initially resented the smoking ban, but in the long run it has been a good thing. I don't believe the popularity of pool hinges on pool rooms having smoking or not, though.

Danny

 

[vagabond]

A big-money match (or the DCC finals) Pool sucks on TV partly because it's so difficult to identify the balls.

9BP

when a player is shown at the table, the opponent sitting in the chair is not visible on the screen.

 

[JCIN]

hi JCIN,

There has not been any change in my position and in the past I posted on these internet forums defending the art of hustling.You can call it ``theft by deception`` if an unsuspecting grand ma was taken advantage off.Every pool player knows that deceptive practices ( hiding the true speed ) are ingrained in the subculture of pool world.
Hustling is an art and I defend it till I die.

That is your opinion and you are entilted to it.

Here is the thing: People with REAL money to invest in a sport look at the all the "hustling" and whatever else you wanna call the little games people play to try and sneak up on someone, and just laugh. I mean if guys "hustling" is a celebrated and revered tradition then it should come as no surprise that the game will always be looked upon as a quaint little band of rouges and characters out hunting the next sucker and a way to pass time between beers.

"Hustling" is not the same thing as gambling or matching up. I'm talking about the crooked sh!t, jarring someone, dumping, double steering, things like that. You see if you take the attitude that all that counts is getting the money then what is the difference between hustling a sucker and hustling a backer? You can have it all. Give me 2 guys who want to match up and play for the dough like gentlemen any day.

I respect your opinion I just happen to strongly disagree with it.

 

[Island Drive]

Bottom Up

Without structure and a reason to improve, with goals and all that goes along with pursuit of a dream, pool will stay where it is for now.
Cost of the nut, cost of owning, heating, insuring, paying employees etc. of a 30 table room are difficult to overcome, and the financial risk is HUGE.
The BCA should of promoted the sport to chum the waters for future generations, but they still think of the home market, when in fact, children eventually leave home, but they don't want to feed em or educate them when their gone, thank god they are not my PARENTS.

 

[Steppwolf]

As others above have said, it's not such a bad thing that the pool hustler of old is fading into history. All he was was a guy trading on inside information, using that information to relieve an unsuspecting fool from his money.

Unfortunately, that type is flourishing as much as ever on Wall Street.

 

[vagabond]

"Hustling" is not the same thing as gambling or matching up. I'm talking about the crooked sh!t, jarring someone, dumping, double steering, things like that. You see if you take the attitude that all that counts is getting the money then what is the difference between hustling a sucker and hustling a backer?

QUOTE]


I also do not approve of the above mentioned things and I consider those acts as criminal.
When I use the word `hustling`, I use it in a very narrow sense and it means that the hustler is not showing his full speed of his game.Again I consider it as thievary if it is used against a unsuspecting grand mother and is not thievary if it is used against a suspecting pool player.

 

[ShootingArts]

why pool at all?

In addition, in order to succeed and grow...it seems to me that pool rooms...whether they allow smoking or not MUST offer a product that has nothing to do with pool...which generally means great food of some kind and/or live entertainment so people will come for THOSE things regardless of the existence of pool tables.

An ideal structure would be that only 50% of your patrons come to play pool. Stated another way...you want to attack a market 100% larger than the pool player market.Regards,
Jim

Jim,

What you are saying is right. However any small businessman with any sense at all has to ask himself why would he deliberately waste a tremendous amount of space on a losing proposition? Why not dedicate most or all of the business to what makes money? The last time I checked, 85% of small businesses fail within the first five years. The primary cause is undercapitalization.

As a man that has owned over a dozen small businesses I can tell you that I am usually betting everything I have on being successful as are most small business people. Nothing I would like better than to open an old time pool room without the things I find irritating however I can't see any chance of success. In truth, when I only have a 15% chance of success to begin with, I'm not going to put the millstone of giving much of my space to pool tables around my neck.

Over and over on this forum I read that the tournament and tour promoters, the pool room owners, everyone involved but the pool players should be happy to do it for the love of the game even if it costs them money. Not in those words but that is what it boils down to. All of these people want to live and be successful too. Until a business model is created that allows the owners to benefit too pool will remain fringe, a few tables in a bar, a small sideshow on TV.

Look at any highly paid sports figure. The first thing we see is that they make even more money for other people, owners, sponsors, venue owners, etc. Until pool players can do that it simply doesn't make business sense to be involved in pool as a business and most room owners are just die hard relics of another age.

Hu

 

[frankwhite]

I could not agree with you more. Your thoughts on the topic reflect my opinion as well.

The leagues is where it's at today in the United States as it pertains to the popularity of pool.

In sum, pool is a recreational GAME in the United States. Pool is a SPORT in Philippines, as well as other countries. Therein lies the difference.

American custom-made cues are exported and sold in overseas countries, because there is a good market for custom-made cues there. Production cues made overseas are imported to the United States because cost seems to be the determining factor for the American market.

The lot of existing professional pool players is dwindling in the U.S. The American competition for young up-and-coming super stars like Shane Van Boening is not the same as it was several decades ago for American pros.

Many independent pool promoters, with the exception of DCC and U.S. Open and a few others, quit promoting annual events, i.e., Glass City Open. The suffered financial loss and could not turn a profit. Many of these independent promoters kept these events going because of their passion for pool, but there comes a time when you must cut your losses and move on.

Regional tours offer the best bang for the buck in the United States for professional players. The governing body of professional pool for men does not seem to be able to come up with a colorful tour, other than piggy-backing off events that are produced by independent promoters.

Most of the road agents, pool hustlers, and action men from yesteryear are tournament soldiers today. There is an abundance of opinions about this breed of pool player. Either you love 'em or you hate 'em.

The American tournament trail infrastructure is crumbling. I believe that soon the American tournament soldiers will be forced emigrate to an overseas tournament trail if they want to pursue their niche in pool as a sport.

JAM

Hello all, If I may I would like to add on the subject to over sea's pool(Philipines). This past weekend I ran into Rodney Morris, we got into bs ing about somethings but not about too much pool, dont really like to talk about pool to much especially when I know the player personaly. Players dont want to talk about that subject everytime someone says hello. Anyhow, Rodney had mentioned to me that he had just returned from the Philipines(sp), little do you know he loved it there. There is more $$ there then any other country.
Rod explained that they were playing scotch doubles, 3000 to the losers and 10 dimes to the winners, not to mention all the rail bets going on.
What the hell is going on here in our wonderful USofA? Let me answer my own question, "GREED"....I would never mention names but I see tourny promotor/s making a ton and robbing the acual players......Know dont get me wrong, I have mentioned no names it might only be one person but what I have noticed in a open tourny i have just seen..........Now I know why everyone is screaming "Philipines" and I dont blame non of them for going.
Im stickin w/ it too

 

[frankwhite]

I could not agree with you more. Your thoughts on the topic reflect my opinion as well.

The leagues is where it's at today in the United States as it pertains to the popularity of pool.

In sum, pool is a recreational GAME in the United States. Pool is a SPORT in Philippines, as well as other countries. Therein lies the difference.

American custom-made cues are exported and sold in overseas countries, because there is a good market for custom-made cues there. Production cues made overseas are imported to the United States because cost seems to be the determining factor for the American market.

The lot of existing professional pool players is dwindling in the U.S. The American competition for young up-and-coming super stars like Shane Van Boening is not the same as it was several decades ago for American pros.

Many independent pool promoters, with the exception of DCC and U.S. Open and a few others, quit promoting annual events, i.e., Glass City Open. The suffered financial loss and could not turn a profit. Many of these independent promoters kept these events going because of their passion for pool, but there comes a time when you must cut your losses and move on.

Regional tours offer the best bang for the buck in the United States for professional players. The governing body of professional pool for men does not seem to be able to come up with a colorful tour, other than piggy-backing off events that are produced by independent promoters.

Most of the road agents, pool hustlers, and action men from yesteryear are tournament soldiers today. There is an abundance of opinions about this breed of pool player. Either you love 'em or you hate 'em.

The American tournament trail infrastructure is crumbling. I believe that soon the American tournament soldiers will be forced emigrate to an overseas tournament trail if they want to pursue their niche in pool as a sport.

JAM

Hello all, If I may I would like to add on the subject to over sea's pool(Philipines). This past weekend I ran into Rodney Morris, we got into bs ing about somethings but not about too much pool, dont really like to talk about pool to much especially when I know the player personaly. Players dont want to talk about that subject everytime someone says hello. Anyhow, Rodney had mentioned to me that he had just returned from the Philipines(sp), little do you know he loved it there. There is more $$ there then any other country.
Rod explained that they were playing scotch doubles, 3000 to the losers and 10 dimes to the winners, not to mention all the rail bets going on.
What the hell is going on here in our wonderful USofA? Let me answer my own question, "GREED"....I would never mention names but I see tourny promotor/s making a ton and robbing the acual players......Know dont get me wrong, I have mentioned no names it might only be one person but what I have noticed in a open tourny i have just seen..........Now I know why everyone is screaming "Philipines" and I dont blame non of them for going.
Im stickin w/ it too

 

[trustyrusty]

I've been in the pool retail business for almost 30 years.

Good for you Danny for being a "lifer" in the pool business!

As for the decline in your (and most other) pool hall business, let me offer the following comments.

I don't know what the smoking laws are in your area but...in general...smoking is killing this sport (literally and figuratively) as much as any other single factor.

In my state...Tennessee...we recently passed a chicken ...t law that exempts the smoking ban for any business allowing only 21 and over patrons.

And that is in spite of the fact that only 25% of our population above the age of 16 are smokers!!!

So, do the math...what kind of business can grow and prosper when it is shutting out 75% of the available market!! Literally suicide!

And I don't want to hear that banning smoking would kill the business because so many pool players are smokers. If that were true at all, it would be true in New York City. The FACT of the matter is that smokers quickly adapt to stepping outside to coat their lungs with some more tar...so it's just not that big of a deal.

But most states do NOT ban smoking...period...and as long as that is the case HUGE percentage of the population will simply not take up the sport because they can't afford or don't have room for their own tables and they will not frequent pool halls that allow smoking.

In addition, in order to succeed and grow...it seems to me that pool rooms...whether they allow smoking or not MUST offer a product that has nothing to do with pool...which generally means great food of some kind and/or live entertainment so people will come for THOSE things regardless of the existence of pool tables.

An ideal structure would be that only 50% of your patrons come to play pool. Stated another way...you want to attack a market 100% larger than the pool player market.

Of course, some small rooms can't go both ways like that.

But my main point is thatsmoking is the real culprit but unfortunately, the pool hall owners can't control their state legislatures and force them to ban smoking...statewide regardless of age.

I know there are many smokers reading this (I was one too back in the day) and I mean no offense.

I'm just saying that if I knew that 75% of the population hated green cars...I wouldn't get in the business of making green cars.

Regards,
Jim

Sorry Jim, but the poolhall owners are making the green cars without the governments involvement. They have every right to have a non-smoking establishment. So, for the states that don't have a "BAN", the smart owners, in your eyes, should do this on their own, and take the 75% majority of non smoking players....

I know I'd play somewhere that was non-smoking if given the choice, but I don't want the government making that choice for everyone. If poolhall A is smoking, and poolhall B is non - it all comes down to the "consumers". If 75% of the players go to B, a good portion of the other 25% will follow and not smoke to do so (in the establishment)....NO NEED FOR GOVERNMENT INVOLVEMENT. I don't get why everyone thinks the "please take care of us" government needs to decide for us. I kno it sounds like some conspiracy nut cliche - but letting the govenment make all the decisions that we could make on our own is TRULY a slippery slope.

 

[gopi-1]

Hello all, If I may I would like to add on the subject to over sea's pool(Philipines). This past weekend I ran into Rodney Morris, we got into bs ing about somethings but not about too much pool, dont really like to talk about pool to much especially when I know the player personaly. Players dont want to talk about that subject everytime someone says hello. Anyhow, Rodney had mentioned to me that he had just returned from the Philipines(sp), little do you know he loved it there. There is more $$ there then any other country.
Rod explained that they were playing scotch doubles, 3000 to the losers and 10 dimes to the winners, not to mention all the rail bets going on.
What the hell is going on here in our wonderful USofA? Let me answer my own question, "GREED"....I would never mention names but I see tourny promotor/s making a ton and robbing the acual players......Know dont get me wrong, I have mentioned no names it might only be one person but what I have noticed in a open tourny i have just seen..........Now I know why everyone is screaming "Philipines" and I dont blame non of them for going.
Im stickin w/ it too

This is probably what Rodney's talking about: http://www.billiardphilippines.com/v3/modules/news/article.php?storyid=96

 

[USACEMcCoy]

I go to mikeys 24 7

 

[chefjeff]

(snip calls for violence)
But my main point is thatsmoking is the real culprit but unfortunately, the pool hall owners can't control their state legislatures and force them to ban smoking...statewide regardless of age.

(snip)

Regards,
Jim

No, but they could put up a sign that says: NO SMOKING

There, problem solved.

Jeff Livingston

 

[Danny Kuykendal]

Therein is a problem for pool room owners. If you don't allow smoking you will definitely lose regulars to other rooms right away. If you do allow smoking, you're right, many people won't come in. How about a non-smoking section? I tried that after the smoking ban took effect in California and had a ton of complaints from the non-smokers. So I had to do one or the other, and I didn't want to fight the police or city hall. I's really a Catch-22. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Danny K

 

[LoGiC]

We can write off all the reasons why we think pool is dying, the smoking, the bad image, KT, etc., but bottom line is something dies off if new people don't pick it up.

You don't see many kids playing pool these days. None of my friends do it. I'm 19, and if I got to a pool hall, the next youngest guy there is in his 30s. My generation doesn't want to do anything thats not automatic. Pool is something you work at, and most kids don't want to put the effort in.

But put a video game in front of them where you only invest time, then they're happy...

 

[9BallPaul]

Say what?

when a player is shown at the table, the opponent sitting in the chair is not visible on the screen.

Sorry Vagabond, but I don't have any idea what this post means in relation to my previous post about HDTV. Huh?