Pool/Billiard Math Guru's - I need some help.

geno

geno

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I need a little help with a mathematical equation regarding pool tables and how far and at what speed a ball travels after it leaves the table.

I am opening up a Restaurant/Bar/Pool Room and the City wants me to have pool tables 16' away from any seating. YEAH, more old school pool law BS. Anyway, I have to prove to them or at least show them that this is a ridiculous amount of distance.

What I need to know is, if a pool ball leaves the table how far can it be expected to travel in the air and at what speed. I know from break contests the average speed a pool ball can travel is about 25mph. But given it's weight and trajectory how far would it travel and what would the speeds be per foot of travel and what would the drop or decline in elevation be per foot?

Any help with this would be great.

Also, if anyone knows any city/state laws regarding this I could use for case law please let me know.

Thanks in advance for any info you can provide.

Attached is the proposed floor plan.
 

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I don't have any science for you, but 25mph is on the high (really fast/hard) side of a breakshot. I'd say an average is more like 16mph - if hit well.
 
16 feet is about right.

3' = 1/2 a t^2
t=0.43 seconds before ball hits floor
break speed=36.5 fps

distance traveled = 0.43 * 35.5 = 15.8 feet

You have sharp code enforcers!
 
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Are you not allowed to have any seating within 16' of the pool tables, or just the restaurant seating? Would it throw off the look of the place to have plexiglass or some other kind of barrier between the dining area and the pool area?

Would it work to set the racks at the other end so they're breaking away from the dining area?

I think you could pretty reasonably argue that balls aren't going to fly off the table at top speed on any shot but the break, and if the break is in the other direction you should be fine. Or you could sue the city and have them change the statute. :-) Good luck.
 
Dead Crab said:
16 feet is about right.

3' = 1/2 a t^2
t=0.43 seconds before ball hits floor
break speed=36.5 fps

distance traveled = 0.43 * 35.5 = 15.8 feet

You have sharp code enforcers!
Click to expand...

Can you show the rest of your work? What are you using as the angle of departure for the ball leaving the table?
 
geno said:
I need a little help with a mathematical equation regarding pool tables and how far and at what speed a ball travels after it leaves the table.

I am opening up a Restaurant/Bar/Pool Room and the City wants me to have pool tables 16' away from any seating. YEAH, more old school pool law BS. Anyway, I have to prove to them or at least show them that this is a ridiculous amount of distance.

What I need to know is, if a pool ball leaves the table how far can it be expected to travel in the air and at what speed. I know from break contests the average speed a pool ball can travel is about 25mph. But given it's weight and trajectory how far would it travel and what would the speeds be per foot of travel and what would the drop or decline in elevation be per foot?

Any help with this would be great.

Also, if anyone knows any city/state laws regarding this I could use for case law please let me know.

Thanks in advance for any info you can provide.

Attached is the proposed floor plan.
Click to expand...

The problem is, it is not a ridiculous of distance. I would say from my experience, a cue ball can go far. If someone breaks and the cue hops and catches the top of the 1 ball it could go 30 feet or more because it travels in an arc. Cue balls often fly up and break table lights. I had one go through a pin ball machine that had to be at least 25 feet away and the ball had velocity when it hit the machine. I think a ball even coming off the table fairly low will go at least 10 feet before it hits the floor. The best argument you can give will be the cue ball leaving the table only involves the break. If you have the tables so the balls are racked at the center of the room, (as your picture shows the tables), you will have the greatest distance to a seating table looks like about 27 feet or more from the scale of your drawing.

Let me just add this as a guy who won a law suit against a city. Be very careful screwing with these guys. Cities make the rules and have the power to grant a variance if you show them something that makes them want to help you. You may have to kiss some a$$ like it or not. Pi$$ them off you they can make life miserable for you.
 
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Having scoring and spectators 16 feet away is a bit much. HEY LOU, WAS THAT A SAFETY??? WHAT?? SPEAK UP, CAN'T HEAR YOU??? HOLD ON I NEED A TIME OUT.. give me 10 minutes to walk to the captain.

Do they at least allow mingling of black and white players in this town?
 
hang-the-9 said:
Having scoring and spectators 16 feet away is a bit much. HEY LOU, WAS THAT A SAFETY??? WHAT?? SPEAK UP, CAN'T HEAR YOU??? HOLD ON I NEED A TIME OUT.. give me 10 minutes to walk to the captain.

Do they at least allow mingling of black and white players in this town?
Click to expand...

Maybe they will require helmets for anyone within the 16 foot limit.
 
walrus_3d said:
Can you show the rest of your work? What are you using as the angle of departure for the ball leaving the table?
Click to expand...

This is the distance the ball will travel from where it reaches maximum height. Note that I chose this to be 3 feet, as I don't think most errant cue balls get more than a few inches off the playing surface, nor do I think they have much upward trajectory after leaving the table.
 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This makes the assumption that the ball loses no energy (velocity).
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It probably doesn't.


%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Next, you haven't taken into account the fact that the cue ball (assuming it hits the rack to fly off the table) will be traveling upwards for part of that time.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
As previously stated, it is how far the ball goes after reaching it's apex. I happen to think that this tends to be over the table, but if you think it is elsewhere, you can adjust accordingly.

******************
All you have figured out is how far a ball would travel before hitting the floor when shot perfectly vertical.
******************
Vide supra.
 
macguy said:
...require helmets for anyone within the 16 foot limit.
Click to expand...


That is the best idea yet!!

I cant believe "...I have to prove to them or at least show them that this is a ridiculous amount of distance." So they are going to change building code, based on your input? Better wear a tie!

And I have seen a CB fly 25+ ft on a break shot (toward the dutys' mom, if that means anything to you) and she woulda had no shot at protecting herself, had the trajectory been on a harmful path.
 
Black-Balled said:
That is the best idea yet!!

I cant believe "...I have to prove to them or at least show them that this is a ridiculous amount of distance." So they are going to change building code, based on your input? Better wear a tie!

And I have seen a CB fly 25+ ft on a break shot (toward the dutys' mom, if that means anything to you) and she woulda had no shot at protecting herself, had the trajectory been on a harmful path.
Click to expand...

Here is what it really comes down to. If you try to open a pool room you will sometimes in some towns run into strange requirements that are often imposable to meet. These requirements may be on the books dating back decades to a different time. A time when for some reason they did not want any pool rooms in their town. You see it all the time with adult entertainment regulations they can make them completely imposable to meet. I am pretty sure no one on the current city commission had anything to do with the writing of the regulation it is just there. I would bet none of them have even read it before themselves. With a little good natured argument and maybe they themselves seeing the silliness of the rule, you can get a variance possibility easily if they like you and what you are doing.
 
Geno, you can tell them this, coming from someone who has owned four pool rooms. A pool ball leaving the table will hit the floor within five or six feet of the table in almost all cases, and then it will roll on the floor (carpeted floor). On the floor, a pool ball is relatively harmless. You can relate it to a rolling baseball and ask them how many injuries they are aware of at the local parks from rolling baseballs. Answer - NONE!

I'll leave it up to you whether you want to talk about the dangers of flying baseballs as opposed to flying pool balls. I wouldn't even go there though If I were you. Rolling balls is a much better argument for your cause.
 
Once the cue ball bounces off someones head, it slows down considerably before it hits some one else.

Just turn the tables so you aren't breaking toward the dining room and toward the players seats. We are much better at dodging errant balls than the average Joe.
 
Scheduling a meeting and requesting a change to the ordinance or a variance would be the smartest move instead of trying to fight them.

What he needs is a whole bunch of photos from nice rooms around the country showing the layouts with distances and a letter from his insurance about risk assessment. Letters from the APA and BCA likely could be requested on his behalf as well.

From his layout I don't think this is going to be a dive joint but alot of people automatically think that when they hear someone is opening a place with pool tables. May favorite was a local city ordinance 29 minutes outside of Knoxville that didn't allow alcohol to be served where there was a pool table. A new place wanted to open and they changed the ordinance after being shown the layout and artists conceptual renderings of the establishment.
 
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Possibly??

Could you setup the room such that breaking would be on the right end of the tables (towards the player seating / record keeping area) and argue that the only people affected would be other pool players who are aware of the risk?
 
macguy said:
Here is what it really comes down to. If you try to open a pool room you will sometimes in some towns run into strange requirements that are often imposable to meet. These requirements may be on the books dating back decades to a different time. A time when for some reason they did not want any pool rooms in their town. You see it all the time with adult entertainment regulations they can make them completely imposable to meet. I am pretty sure no one on the current city commission had anything to do with the writing of the regulation it is just there. I would bet none of them have even read it before themselves. With a little good natured argument and maybe they themselves seeing the silliness of the rule, you can get a variance possibility easily if they like you and what you are doing.
Click to expand...

Explained and accepted! Thanks for takin the time, Mr!
 
jay helfert said:
Geno, you can tell them this, coming from someone who has owned four pool rooms. A pool ball leaving the table will hit the floor within five or six feet of the table in almost all cases, and then it will roll on the floor (carpeted floor). On the floor, a pool ball is relatively harmless. You can relate it to a rolling baseball and ask them how many injuries they are aware of at the local parks from rolling baseballs. Answer - NONE!

I'll leave it up to you whether you want to talk about the dangers of flying baseballs as opposed to flying pool balls. I wouldn't even go there though If I were you. Rolling balls is a much better argument for your cause.
Click to expand...

What do you say if they ask what is the farthest it can go? Their rules is not written for the average but the extra ordinary. You can't really say things to these people that doesn't sound true or is just self serving. Like it of not, they hold all the cards you have to not BS them. Come on, 5 feet, cue balls fly off and travel over two tables all the time. In fact it would be hard to hit a ball in a way that it would leave the table and not have it travel more then 5 feet. That would be a tough bet to win, to knock a ball off the table and hit the floor less then 5 feet from the perimeter of the table.
 
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I think it's probably not going to work to tell the Planning Department they are full of it whether they are or not. I think it's better to show them that you are trying to make things as safe as possible. The standard way to deal with this in pool halls is to have the break going away from, for example, the windows.

If someone is intent on launching the cue ball, 16 feet will not be enough. Where I learned to play there was a guy called Mean Al. Besides cheating when he could get away with it he liked to nail people with the cue ball if he wanted them farther back from the table. One time on a bet he hit the clock up on the wall -- like 8 feet off the floor. If you wanted to bet him he couldn't hit a dinner plate on a table 17 feet away, I think you would lose your money.

Life does not come with 100% guarantees.
 
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