Pool: Gentleman's Game or Scoundrel's Game

JoeyA

JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
The title was just to capture your attention. :D

A friend and I were discussing pool and what was needed to make it more attractive.

FTR, my friend is an attorney and he said all you have to do is look at television to determine what the viewing public wants to see and it is hands-down, the scoundrel. With all of the reality programs you can see that it is the villains, divas and beatches that garner the most attention.

I think for the average television viewer, they would probably rather watch Minnesota Fats badgering an opponent than watching Willie Mosconi run 125 balls of straight pool. Nothing much has changed I guess. Thinking about this, I have always wished for pool to become a little more straight laced with less treachery but am starting to be swayed to the dark side. :o Trying to improve pool's image has done absolutely no good for the last 40 years so why not just let pool get down in the gutter and let the mud fly?

How about you?

JoeyA :oink:
 
I understand what you are saying, but do you really want to see the professional wrestling of pool? Hell, we could use actors and stuff. Why do we need pool players?

Seriously, this doesn't do anything for pool.

Pool players (AKA the AZ alum) need to forget about getting on television and having a large arena of fans. We need to forget about gaining big corporate sponsors and stupid shoe contracts.

We need to focus on what we already have and build upon that. What we do have is a large base of amateur players that need to become a supporter and feeder system to the pro level.

Oh well....keep dreamin'
 
Pool is what it is. If they didn't try to make them wear monkey suits and a bow tie over 40 years ago for TV that has done just about nothing for pool since Fat's and Mosconi played, maybe pool would be a bigger draw today. One thing I think the players should have to wear if a tournament is being televised is that all player should have to wear different color collared sport shirts, nice slacks, and matching shoes. I don't care if it's the US Open or any other tournament on TV, including reality shows if they ever make one. Not to many viewers want to look at baseball caps turned backwards, shorts that come down to the ankles, and dirty sneakers. Everyone is dressed different but really the same now. John S, Corey, someone else that dresses well for tournaments should start a billiard clothing line with reasonable prices on cloths that look good. Johnnyt
 
Popularity of Pool

What pool needs in order to be main stream is more female players like Jennifer Baretta. Plain and simple, it takes something like that or even another main stream movie, depicting colorful pool players (Paul Newman and Tom Cruise) to capture the publics eye and bring it to the surface. Pool is not extremely captivating to the average person. Your typical person that gets involved in pool is generally somebody that wants to immulate the image of some of the icons they've seen on TV or Movies and if they develope into a decent enough player they'll stick with it, Otherwise it will be a small glimpse of their lives and they'll move on to the hobby of the month. Another way people get involved in the sport is to get involved through friends or relatives that play or the evil nemisis of pool, (THE LEAGUE!) all jokes aside, we need to try as a brotherhood of this wonderful sport to involve everybody we can, to keep it going and quit watching poolhalls all over the nation close because they just can't get the draw of people that a 4 table bar can get with a band. The people that are at the bar on friday night probably won't end up as long term pool players, it's the men an women that we work with, and see in passing. I personally have tried to get everybody involved in the sport that I can, some people have really enjoyed it and developed into fantastic players and some played in a league for 1 session and it was more than they wanted to commit to. But all in all it's up to us as pool players to recruit, and if we are wandering around pool rooms and trying to hustle the next college kid that walks in the door out of 20$, down the road when we have nowhere to play it's our own faults. We need to ask those kids to play and show them the correct ways of playing and the rules of each game so that we could continue on our traditions of the game we enjoy so much. So lets try to quit being such snobs of the game and do our part to develope it back into what it once was. Damn, I've been looking to say all of that for awile! Later!
 
I would hate to see pool represented by stupid, shallow ball-bangers.

Yeah, it would be cool to have a spitfire like Fats around these days, maybe an Ali, generating some real entertainment, but that's something that has to come about naturally.

And on a final note: Reality TV is not something that should be encouraged.
 
Surly said:
I would hate to see pool represented by stupid, shallow ball-bangers.

Yeah, it would be cool to have a spitfire like Fats around these days, maybe an Ali, generating some real entertainment, but that's something that has to come about naturally.

And on a final note: Reality TV is not something that should be encouraged.
Click to expand...

I agree, reality TV should not be encouraged. I hate it, but it seems to get good ratings. I still say a NEW game needs to be invented for TV. Maybe something like pill pool, where the viewers know who has what # pill, or each player spins a wheel that has 50-100 ball layouts. Easy layout 10 points, hard 50 points with different points for the ones in between. I don't smoke (anything:mad: ) or drink anymore so I can't invent anything right now. Johnnyt
 
different game

I think that a different game and a looser decorum might be an aid to pool on TV. Bowling had done OK for awhile but the death knell was sounding when new owners bought bowling(yep, essentially the entire pro sport) and revamped it. One of the things they did was encourage people to show emotions, also conversation and banter was encouraged between the players. After losing money for years bowling is headed back into the black.

I think we may be going the wrong way with pool games too. I agree we need a new game but I think that a modified version of straight pool or something similar to snooker might be a solution especially if there is a rule in place to force innings such as perhaps 35 and stop in straight pool. Not exactly what I have in mind but an example.

We watch one football game for hours, one baseball game, one round of golf, why should pool on TV have to be many games if one game defines the winner?

Skullduggery on TV is no guarantee of viewers. The finest reality show featuring the biggest bunch of liars and thieves, scoundrels and crooks ever seen is probably the lowest rated network. This bunch makes pool players look like a bunch of pollyanna's, they deal in huge sums of money and fine theater yet nobody watches. I'm talking about the government network of course.

Hu
 
JoeyA said:
The title was just to capture your attention. :D

A friend and I were discussing pool and what was needed to make it more attractive.

FTR, my friend is an attorney and he said all you have to do is look at television to determine what the viewing public wants to see and it is hands-down, the scoundrel. With all of the reality programs you can see that it is the villains, divas and beatches that garner the most attention.

I think for the average television viewer, they would probably rather watch Minnesota Fats badgering an opponent than watching Willie Mosconi run 125 balls of straight pool. Nothing much has changed I guess. Thinking about this, I have always wished for pool to become a little more straight laced with less treachery but am starting to be swayed to the dark side. :o Trying to improve pool's image has done absolutely no good for the last 40 years so why not just let pool get down in the gutter and let the mud fly?

How about you?

JoeyA :oink:
Click to expand...

This is the debate for the ages. I'm of the opinion that it is the seedy side of the game that tends to jump start pool when it's trending up, but it's that same seedy side that ultimately drags it down and scares away the youthful and affluent demographics.

I think pool can be both a gentleman's game and a scoundrel's game, but there is a need for some venues / situations where customers can play a gentlemanly game without much fear of being preyed upon by the scoundrels. For example, a) a poolroom I went to in Raleigh, North Carolina in the late 1970's had a $10 cover charge but they gave you a coupon for $10 off on your table time, and b) a poolroom I visited in Broward County, Florida in the early 1990's only allowed gambling after 8:00 PM.
 
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There are alot things that can be done that are not that hard. Its more of a question of WHO is going to do somthing. Nobody wants to do anythng for free and doing the things to get pool moving are not going to have a payday until the moving has been moving for awhile.
 
It's both. People can enjoy both sides of the game. I think that high class tournaments a'la IPT style with big money at stake could be a draw as well as "in the ring" slugfests like Alex/Shane also for big money.

I don't think we need to showcase the drugs, the con-artist hustles, the dumps, etc.... But definitely showcase the drama and colorful personalities around good pure pool.

What pool needs is CONSISTENCY - no new games - part of why "pool" can't get popular is the fact that there are so many variations of it already and those seem to be fair game for any promoter to tweak at will. Can anyone tell me when there have been two US Opens in the last 15 years that played with the same 9-ball rules two years in a row?

Let's recap to see what is and has been presented to the public on national television, 9-ball, 10-ball, 8-ball, 7-ball (two variations), 14.1 (straight pool), one pocket, Skins 9 Ball, Trick Shots/Artistic Billiards. Have I missed anything?

How is the general public supposed to become a fan of any of these games or the players when it's so inconsistent.

Why do people get into Survivor? Because the show is consistent. They get involved with a character and stick with them.

What happens if someone happens to catch Johnny Archer on TV and really likes his cool demeanor and wants to see more of him? The only option is YouTube or the web to glean whatever clips one can. Because there certainly IS NOT another tournament that they can look forward to watching to see how Johnny does.

It all comes down to the fact that pool is not exciting. It's mindless filler that people find when channel surfing and watch with detachment.

The know the British gal, the know the Asian chick, they know the punky British gal and that's about it. Why? Because the WPBA has been consistent. I am certain that the WPBA has a lot of non-pool playing fans simply because they are always present and people can get to know the players.

Tennis is a proper example - it's a "high class" sport but look at what the Bobby Riggs/Billie Jean King match did for tennis. It brought millions to tennis and many stayed after the match.

So the answer is, as Stu said, it's a game for both. Pool can stir up the gambler and outlaw in us as well as be a game where millionaires play in quiet appreciation of well played shots.
 
The darker side of the game may be the only thing that can bring it to the top. If you look at what has been popular with the general public it has always been the more colorful side of the game. The Color of Money & the Hustler, the two biggest pool movies ever made showcased the more illicit side of pool and that is a large part of why they were so successful.

They do not make movies that gross millions and at the same time have a major impact on the billiard industry about league night. I think that it is pretty clear what the non-pool playing public would respond to.

This is the side of the game that needs to be embraced. This community has more natural characters than any other sport. If this aspect of the game was shown on a larger scale people would be falling all over themselves to see it. Big stacks of cash, two of the great talkers going back and forth, you couldn't miss if you tried.



But that's just my opinion.
 
JoeyA said:
A friend and I were discussing pool and what was needed to make it more attractive.

FTR, my friend is an attorney and he said all you have to do is look at television to determine what the viewing public wants to see and it is hands-down, the scoundrel.

With all of the reality programs you can see that it is the villains, divas and beatches that garner the most attention.


JoeyA
Click to expand...


I agree with your friend and when it comes to pool, I have just two words for you:
OMAROSA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wyjk7eRltqA

Doug
(your 'other' friend) :)


.
 
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Concerning the average viewer I would have to agree. The boisterous, obnoxious unsportsmanlike player is going to win out. In reality he may not be a favorite, but people will either be tuning in dying to see him either win or lose.....either way they will be tuning in to see him or her for that matter.

For the die hard fan it will almost always be the classiest player in the bunch. Sometimes it will be someone who is obnoxious and classy at the same time (ex: Ali), but they will always be classy nonetheless.

Once that obnoxious player is replaced people will ignore him, but the classy player will remain for years.
 
In 1961 we had The Hustler and in 1986 The Color of Money. Both films led to lots of new rooms and new players. It's been 23 years since TCOM so we're due for a new good movie. But Paul Newman's dead, and these days the demand for mindless action is so great that the movie would have to feature a shotgun blast to the head if the hero missed the game ball.

I kind of think it's hopeless. Pool on TV has been tried and failed to gain a good audience. The tournament game was changed from boring 14.1 to supposedly exciting 9-ball, didn't work. Then it was changed to "the game everybody plays", 8-ball. Didn't work. Want to try one pocket? The snoozer of all time.

Pool's not exciting to watch unless you have a real rooting interest for one competitor or the other. You have to be mentally invested in a certain player winning to get really interested (e.g., Fats vs. Mosconi). To just show a 9-ball match between two people you don't know or care about is boring for most people, even me, and that's what you get if you show games from a 64 or 128 person tournament.

Smaller tournaments with personalities, like the old Legends tournaments. Lots of interesting background on the players and interviews, like with a boxing match. Maybe then the audience won't stay away in droves. Maybe. Sorry to be pessimistic.
 
Johnnyt said:
Pool is what it is. If they didn't try to make them wear monkey suits and a bow tie over 40 years ago for TV that has done just about nothing for pool since Fat's and Mosconi played, maybe pool would be a bigger draw today. One thing I think the players should have to wear if a tournament is being televised is that all player should have to wear different color collared sport shirts, nice slacks, and matching shoes. I don't care if it's the US Open or any other tournament on TV, including reality shows if they ever make one. Not to many viewers want to look at baseball caps turned backwards, shorts that come down to the ankles, and dirty sneakers. Everyone is dressed different but really the same now. John S, Corey, someone else that dresses well for tournaments should start a billiard clothing line with reasonable prices on cloths that look good. Johnnyt
Click to expand...

Oh really?? When was the last time you watched TV? Viewers are viewers whether they are the young punks or old geezers. And more punks watch tv than geezers....if you think baggy clothes and backward caps doesn't sell, I suggest you turn on MTV.
 
Rich93 said:
In 1961 we had The Hustler and in 1986 The Color of Money. Both films led to lots of new rooms and new players. It's been 23 years since TCOM so we're due for a new good movie. But Paul Newman's dead, and these days the demand for mindless action is so great that the movie would have to feature a shotgun blast to the head if the hero missed the game ball.

I kind of think it's hopeless. Pool on TV has been tried and failed to gain a good audience. The tournament game was changed from boring 14.1 to supposedly exciting 9-ball, didn't work. Then it was changed to "the game everybody plays", 8-ball. Didn't work. Want to try one pocket? The snoozer of all time.

<b>Pool's not exciting to watch unless you have a real rooting interest for one competitor or the other.</b> You have to be mentally invested in a certain player winning to get really interested (e.g., Fats vs. Mosconi). To just show a 9-ball match between two people you don't know or care about is boring for most people, even me, and that's what you get if you show games from a 64 or 128 person tournament.

Smaller tournaments with personalities, like the old Legends tournaments. Lots of interesting background on the players and interviews, like with a boxing match. Maybe then the audience won't stay away in droves. Maybe. Sorry to be pessimistic.
Click to expand...

I'm only commenting on the bold....the rest I really do agree with.
Pool is only exciting to watch when you know what you are watching. When you understand what that player is doing, or you are interested in how they are doing it then it is exciting.
 
JoeyA said:
The title was just to capture your attention. :D

A friend and I were discussing pool and what was needed to make it more attractive.

FTR, my friend is an attorney and he said all you have to do is look at television to determine what the viewing public wants to see and it is hands-down, the scoundrel. With all of the reality programs you can see that it is the villains, divas and beatches that garner the most attention.

I think for the average television viewer, they would probably rather watch Minnesota Fats badgering an opponent than watching Willie Mosconi run 125 balls of straight pool. Nothing much has changed I guess. Thinking about this, I have always wished for pool to become a little more straight laced with less treachery but am starting to be swayed to the dark side. :o Trying to improve pool's image has done absolutely no good for the last 40 years so why not just let pool get down in the gutter and let the mud fly?

How about you?

JoeyA :oink:
Click to expand...

I think pool is a complex game that a very, very, very small percentage of the population can appreciate. Most people see balls go in the hole and it looks easy. What's exciting about that? Unfortunately, I think pool will need charismatic characters and have to be packaged with drama to appeal to the mainstream. I have to vote that the "scoundrel's game" would increase pool's popularity to the mainstream and thus bring more money to the sport.
 
gunzby said:
Pool is only exciting to watch when you know what you are watching. When you understand what that player is doing, or you are interested in how they are doing it then it is exciting.
Click to expand...

Yes, for those of us who are really into the game, but we are few. What we want is to get people who aren't into pool to get interested.

A few years ago my wife got into watching that Donald Trump show where 10 or so young people compete to become his employee - you know, somebody gets voted "off the island" each week. I thought the concept was stupid and didn't want to watch, but for the sake of matrimonial bliss I did. And damn, if I didn't get interested. You get to know these people (or think you do), you like some of them, you can't stand others and you develop a rooting interest. And then the show is interesting. If something along those lines could be developed for pool - but I don't know how.
 
18 to 35

Drew said:
Oh really?? When was the last time you watched TV? Viewers are viewers whether they are the young punks or old geezers. And more punks watch tv than geezers....if you think baggy clothes and backward caps doesn't sell, I suggest you turn on MTV.
Click to expand...

Easy to forget that many on this forum aren't sponsors target audience. Most sponsors are looking for the 18 to 35 year old audience with money to spend. The average sponsor cares little about advertising to children or people who are less inclined to impulse spending. The very conservative buyers who tend to be older aren't going to be swayed by a TV commercial and children don't have the dollars to buy and often can't legally.

Regardless of the audience, one thing I think it is wrong to lose sight of is that we are trying to market pool. If the sideshow is what we are marketing we, and the networks, can as easily interchange ping pong, tiddly-winks or whatever. In fact pool makes little sense, why not build the show/competition around something with equipment that is more portable and that doesn't take up as much room? We have to find a way to make pool itself interesting or exciting, not just the sideshow.

Hu
 
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i think the first thing that needs to be done away with is trick shot and speed pool. its like the slam dunk contest..its amusing for a while, but once you have seen it once...you know what to expect. i also think they should have teleivised tournaments that have both men and women competing against each other. lets face it, the ladies draw a great crowd and it could only help pools ratings.
 
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