Pool: Gentleman's Game or Scoundrel's Game

[Drew]

Easy to forget that many on this forum aren't sponsors target audience. Most sponsors are looking for the 18 to 35 year old audience with money to spend. The average sponsor cares little about advertising to children or people who are less inclined to impulse spending. The very conservative buyers who tend to be older aren't going to be swayed by a TV commercial and children don't have the dollars to buy and often can't legally.

Regardless of the audience, one thing I think it is wrong to lose sight of is that we are trying to market pool. If the sideshow is what we are marketing we, and the networks, can as easily interchange ping pong, tiddly-winks or whatever. In fact pool makes little sense, why not build the show/competition around something with equipment that is more portable and that doesn't take up as much room? We have to find a way to make pool itself interesting or exciting, not just the sideshow.

Hu

Pool has a rich and mysterious history...that kind of thing is exclusive to pool.

Believe it or not, marketing is usually aimed at young consumers...not thirty-somethings. The reason is that teenagers and people in their early twenties have much more expendable cash (pretty much all of it) and tend to be very impulsive. Also, the recent teenage generation has a very strong pull in the family. Parents and most 30 year olds try to act or appear younger which also helps. 90% of consumer marketing is targeted at people between the ages of 10 and 25. Yes, that number was an estimate.

The golden rule of marketing is to hook 'em young.

Now with regards to pool. We've had this conversation too many times to count...just look at the other industries and you'll find your answer.

1. Money- people are drawn to money. Organize the leagues and get them to contribute. The APA and BCA pull down some serious cash. Predator has done wonders in creating new markets and new "necessities." These things help to bring money into the sport. And for god's sake, market the damn gambling...every single big action game needs to be recorded, streamed, whatever. The woofing is often the best part so that's gotta be embraced too. Thank god AZB is around to get the info on all the action. We need more of that. When there's money, the players and spectators will come on their own...the best example for this is Golf. I still don't understand how anyone can watch that shit all day.

2. Sex appeal- Yes, people like sex too. I know some of the girls hate it, but you have to get the young hot players out in the spotlight. Look at Anna Kournikova, the girl sucks but we watched her play. Everybody in the land of TV is a supermodel, why should pool be any different?

3. Kids- They're impulsive, they have addictive personalities, they try to appear older, and they've got tons of daddy's cash to blow. Pool is generally thought of as a grown-up game. Kids are drawn to grown-up things. I'm really surprised that nobody has done this before but you gotta get the kids playing. They won't come on their own either, you have to put it in their face. Why can't somebody start putting tables in schools? Schools are always looking for free stuff!! I gave my sister's school my old ping pong table and they took it with open arms. Now they have a ping pong club. When enough schools in the area have tables, they'll start organizing tournaments and leagues and so on...that equates to a lot of lifetime players who otherwise would have never started playing pool.

 

[Drew]

i think the first thing that needs to be done away with is trick shot and speed pool. its like the slam dunk contest..its amusing for a while, but once you have seen it once...you know what to expect. i also think they should have teleivised tournaments that have both men and women competing against each other. lets face it, the ladies draw a great crowd and it could only help pools ratings.

This is another thing that needs attention. IMO, pool is pool. Any pool is good pool. Quit holding these grudges toward trick shots and speed pool...that attitude doesn't work. Mickey Mouse pool is more entertaining than the real stuff, DEAL WITH IT!!

You have to make the decision...do you want people to watch and play? or do you want to hang on to your elitist and outdated notions?

This is the same for the classy vs. dirty argument. We have no room to decide. If dirty sells, then pool will be dirty, complete with sagging pants, backward caps, and profanity. If classy sells, then pool will be classy. Stop trying to change the public. If something has to change, you're better off changing the game.

 

[Ironman317]

This is another thing that needs attention. IMO, pool is pool. Any pool is good pool. Quit holding these grudges toward trick shots and speed pool...that attitude doesn't work. Mickey Mouse pool is more entertaining than the real stuff, DEAL WITH IT!!

You have to make the decision...do you want people to watch and play? or do you want to hang on to your elitist and outdated notions?

This is the same for the classy vs. dirty argument. We have no room to decide. If dirty sells, then pool will be dirty, complete with sagging pants, backward caps, and profanity. If classy sells, then pool will be classy. Stop trying to change the public. If something has to change, you're better off changing the game.

trick shot and speed pool take away from the sport, period! i guess thats why we dont see flag football on tv...any football isnt necessarily good football.

 

[Drew]

trick shot and speed pool take away from the sport, period! i guess thats why we dont see flag football on tv...any football isnt necessarily good football.

If flag football sold...we'd see it on tv. It has nothing to do with the eliteness of football. It has everything to do with putting arses in seats and selling products.

 

[Roy Steffensen]

Copy the format of the Premier League Snooker, (www.premierleaguesnooker.com).

Example for America:

Premier League 10-ball

7 players in a group format, round-robin, all matches play 16 games. That way a player can win most games and score 2 points, or it can be 8-8 and a draw. First year: Shane Van Boening, Johnny Archer, Earl Strickland, Keith McCready, Danny Harriman, John Schmidt and Corey Deuel.

To finish the groupstage each player needs to play 6 matches.

First part will be played in March, New York. 2 matches each.

Second part will be played in April, Los Angeles. 2 matches each.

Third part will be played in May, Washington. 2 matches each.

For all these "parts" you only need 1 table, so all matches will be played on a tv-table with spectators, with a shot-clock. Make sure that there are player interviews before and after each match, some stats and history between the players etc, so the viewing audience will get to know the players.

When the groupstage is completed, the top 4 will play semifinals and final.

This will happen for example in June, in Las Vegas. One table, with spectators.

The 3 players who didn't qualify to the semifinals. Nr 5 and 6 will have to play in a qualifier to secure their spot for next year, while player nr 7, who finished last, can't play in the league the next year, but can play qualifiers again next year.

With this the viewing audience will watch the same players over and over again, and will get to know them. They will pick their favourites, and when they every now and then watch them in either World Championships or Mosconi Cup etc, they will reckognise them.

The spectators will know the rules of the game, and if they want, they can also watch the league live in person, since there is a website with a schedule for the next time their favourite will play a league-match.

This is a format used in snooker, and it is played all over England. They manage to broadcast it live, though, but it is still possible to do without sending it live.

I think it is a good way to start, and I think it is a show that sponsors would like to join + it gives the players more chances to get private sponsors too. They can now go to companies and promise them minimum 6 matches on tv, in the Premier League of pool.

Even better, TAR could join in as a small sponsor too, and let the viewing audience know that Danny Harriman and John Schmidt will play a long gambling match, available on PPV.

 

[poolplayer2093]

The title was just to capture your attention.

A friend and I were discussing pool and what was needed to make it more attractive.

FTR, my friend is an attorney and he said all you have to do is look at television to determine what the viewing public wants to see and it is hands-down, the scoundrel. With all of the reality programs you can see that it is the villains, divas and beatches that garner the most attention.

I think for the average television viewer, they would probably rather watch Minnesota Fats badgering an opponent than watching Willie Mosconi run 125 balls of straight pool. Nothing much has changed I guess. Thinking about this, I have always wished for pool to become a little more straight laced with less treachery but am starting to be swayed to the dark side. Trying to improve pool's image has done absolutely no good for the last 40 years so why not just let pool get down in the gutter and let the mud fly?

How about you?

JoeyA ink:

it sounds good but then no one would let their kids play. which = no new people playing pool which = the end of pool

 

[ShootingArts]

marketing

Drew,

Watch sports for a day, all types of sports. Watch the ad's that the sponsors of the events run. Then tell me what age groups the sponsors are targeting. Although I believe a little research will show that your age numbers are in error, we don't really care what age group general marketing targets, we care about what age groups sponsors target.

The peak impulse spenders are in their mid to late twenties because they are out of school making money and they have few obligations and to be blunt, they often act impulsively. Advertising normally doesn't, or didn't, break down the demographics that tightly so for many years the primary focus of marketing was the eighteen to thirty-five year old group. Something else to remember is that people are marrying later, stretching the upper age limit of the people without heavy obligations.

We are in basic agreement on marketing technique so I won't pick at the fine details there.

Pool tables in schools have the same issue as pool tables everywhere else. They take up a lot of space, 24/7 all year long. Your ping pong table and most other equipment is packed up and put away when the school moves on to another sport or game. That doesn't happen with pool tables. They either eat space all of the time or once broken down and stored that is where they will probably stay. To teach pool a school probably needs a minimum of four to six tables depending on class size. That is a lot of square footage when space is often at a premium. Schools very often turn down donations of all types for lack of room or because something will cost money to maintain. Pool tables, cues, and supplies to play pool suffer from both of these issues. The fact that pool cues and balls can cause a lot of damage in the wrong hands can become a factor too when they aren't equipment normally found in schools. Other things are just as dangerous but schools can be very reluctant to add something new.

We can get pool tables in some schools and over time they might gain general acceptance. However it is a mistake to think that every school will jump at an opportunity to have pool tables even if they are donated. I haven't even touched on some parents and educators lack of desire to teach children an activity that might lead them to be more inclined to hang out in the depravity of a pool hall.

There aren't any simple overnight solutions to the issues pool as a sport has. We need outside money or the amateurs feeding the pro circuits and realistically that means we need real appeal to a general audience. An organization that is making it's money off of the amateurs has little reason to donate the money to a pro tour that is just a money pit.

Hu

Pool has a rich and mysterious history...that kind of thing is exclusive to pool.

Believe it or not, marketing is usually aimed at young consumers...not thirty-somethings. The reason is that teenagers and people in their early twenties have much more expendable cash (pretty much all of it) and tend to be very impulsive. Also, the recent teenage generation has a very strong pull in the family. Parents and most 30 year olds try to act or appear younger which also helps. 90% of consumer marketing is targeted at people between the ages of 10 and 25. Yes, that number was an estimate.

The golden rule of marketing is to hook 'em young.

Now with regards to pool. We've had this conversation too many times to count...just look at the other industries and you'll find your answer.

1. Money- people are drawn to money. Organize the leagues and get them to contribute. The APA and BCA pull down some serious cash. Predator has done wonders in creating new markets and new "necessities." These things help to bring money into the sport. And for god's sake, market the damn gambling...every single big action game needs to be recorded, streamed, whatever. The woofing is often the best part so that's gotta be embraced too. Thank god AZB is around to get the info on all the action. We need more of that. When there's money, the players and spectators will come on their own...the best example for this is Golf. I still don't understand how anyone can watch that shit all day.

2. Sex appeal- Yes, people like sex too. I know some of the girls hate it, but you have to get the young hot players out in the spotlight. Look at Anna Kournikova, the girl sucks but we watched her play. Everybody in the land of TV is a supermodel, why should pool be any different?

3. Kids- They're impulsive, they have addictive personalities, they try to appear older, and they've got tons of daddy's cash to blow. Pool is generally thought of as a grown-up game. Kids are drawn to grown-up things. I'm really surprised that nobody has done this before but you gotta get the kids playing. They won't come on their own either, you have to put it in their face. Why can't somebody start putting tables in schools? Schools are always looking for free stuff!! I gave my sister's school my old ping pong table and they took it with open arms. Now they have a ping pong club. When enough schools in the area have tables, they'll start organizing tournaments and leagues and so on...that equates to a lot of lifetime players who otherwise would have never started playing pool.

 

[LAlouie]

The topic of "rescuing pool" has gone from earnest debate to forum filler. Pool had it's chance after "Color Of Money". It's done, like burnt bacon.

Your lawyer friend fails to see pool for what it is, a quintessentially boring spectator game. Making a reality show of the game won't do anything FOR THE GAME. For what reason would you try to improve pool's image, so there will be a poolroom on every corner? Just the opposite is happening. So the the pros can get a chance to make big bucks? Why would you want to help them??? It's never going to be shown more on tv...in fact it seems to get shown LESS. And if by the slightest of chances, this idea catches on, we'll be seeing even more pool players acting like @-holes than there already are, as if there aren't enough already, and budding pool players who'll want to be just like their @-hole idols.

A sort of reality show for pool has already been tried. 2 or 3 years ago they filmed a test run for a "reality-style" game of pool in Hollywood. Not Reality really, but focused on the personalities of those who participated. Ever hear of it? Probably not, it got canned like Barretta's breakout film career.

Just enjoy the game and drink chamomile when the idea of saving pool enters your thoughts.

 

[JAM]

The title was just to capture your attention.

A friend and I were discussing pool and what was needed to make it more attractive.

FTR, my friend is an attorney and he said all you have to do is look at television to determine what the viewing public wants to see and it is hands-down, the scoundrel. With all of the reality programs you can see that it is the villains, divas and beatches that garner the most attention.

I think for the average television viewer, they would probably rather watch Minnesota Fats badgering an opponent than watching Willie Mosconi run 125 balls of straight pool. Nothing much has changed I guess. Thinking about this, I have always wished for pool to become a little more straight laced with less treachery but am starting to be swayed to the dark side. Trying to improve pool's image has done absolutely no good for the last 40 years so why not just let pool get down in the gutter and let the mud fly?

How about you?

JoeyA ink:

The pool purists want to see monks playing pool, and there is another school of thought that thinks pool is for clowns.

Check out this light switch plate of clowns playing pool

 

[LAlouie]

and there is another school of thought that thinks pool is for clowns.

There's also a school of thought that pool is for dogs.

http://www.thevelvetstore.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/dogs playing poker22.jpg

 

[memikey]

Pool has been around for a very long time now. It's a minority sport compared to most of the major sports. Everything is relative of course but in its own small way it has gone through various mini peaks and troughs of popularity and it has had plenty enough time to have made its mark.

It has also even spawned a bastardised form of the game played on smaller tables with red and yellow balls, mainly in Uk/Europe/Afrca and Australia. This form of pool has way way way more participants in those countries than the traditional American equipment game by a factor of at least 10:1.

Yet nothing in either form of pool has brought it anywhere remotely close in all these years to the popularity levels as a spectator sport that many still seem to crave. At the same time the other spectating alternatives to pool which are readily and affordably available both to the potential sponsors and to the potential sport spectating population continue to multiply every year.

It also doesn't help (and I know some are really not going to like this comment) that worldwide, certainly in the vast majority of countries outside USA and South America, pool is seen as the cue sport played by those not talented enough to be snooker players. Uk style pool played in the countries mentioned earlier much moreso than American style pool but it applies to a degree to both.

Given those realities and that history, at some stage maybe we have to accept the likelihood that it simply isn't ever going to be a popular spectating sport and thus isn't ever going to be attractive to the sort of advertisers with large corporate advertising/promotion budgets. ....and that is without even taking into account the fact that no blue chip organisation is ever likely in any case to want their brand name associated with the ever enduring seedy and disreputable history and image of pool, pool halls and pool "professionals".

To me it's only hope for the kind of increased viewing popularity that some crave is a "full-on" in depth association with betting and bookmakers. Clearly however that would come with all the inherently obvious advantages and disadvantages unavoidably attached. Sometimes a skunk is just a skunk and should hang out only with other skunks.

In the meantime there is no reason why amateur leagues and small time tours etc should not continue to give pleasure to participants worldwide and let the "professionals" fend for themselves if they think they have a product that enough people want to buy. So far they haven't got such a product and there really isn't any clear reason why it should be anticipated that they ever will have. To be fair there is a fundamental contradiction in even the amateur sphere given that nearly all pool tournaments are competed in by "amateurs" who are nevertheless entitled to prize money, unlike most other sports.

Pool seems to me to in some ways to have always wanted to have its cake and eat it.....and expected the cake to be delivered by a fairy godmother in the first place.

 

[JAM]

There's also a school of thought that pool is for dogs.

http://www.thevelvetstore.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/dogs playing poker22.jpg

And cats, too. Cool cats, I guess! :thumbup:

 

[JimS]

Show young people, 15 and up... the Keither types.... the Landon types.... the Sleeve types..... the Begman types.... the Jesse types.

Show'm on TV, playing pool, reality type thing, doing some trash talking and making money and the game will get popular.

It has to be young people. They are the only demographic that can make a difference. Geezers can't do it.

 

[maldito]

Pool is what it is. If they didn't try to make them wear monkey suits and a bow tie over 40 years ago for TV that has done just about nothing for pool since Fat's and Mosconi played, maybe pool would be a bigger draw today. One thing I think the players should have to wear if a tournament is being televised is that all player should have to wear different color collared sport shirts, nice slacks, and matching shoes. I don't care if it's the US Open or any other tournament on TV, including reality shows if they ever make one. Not to many viewers want to look at baseball caps turned backwards, shorts that come down to the ankles, and dirty sneakers. Everyone is dressed different but really the same now. John S, Corey, someone else that dresses well for tournaments should start a billiard clothing line with reasonable prices on cloths that look good. Johnnyt

Agreed - clothes help the image

 

[maldito]

Years ago -Pool/Billiards received writeup in newspapers - when Greenleaf won or Hoppe won you could read about it in the sports section of major newspapers - but today does the Mosconi cup - US Open 9 ball - US Nationals 3-c - get any major coverage in the large papers?? Sport write ups in large papers help promote an industry.

 

[macguy]

The title was just to capture your attention.

A friend and I were discussing pool and what was needed to make it more attractive.

FTR, my friend is an attorney and he said all you have to do is look at television to determine what the viewing public wants to see and it is hands-down, the scoundrel. With all of the reality programs you can see that it is the villains, divas and beatches that garner the most attention.

I think for the average television viewer, they would probably rather watch Minnesota Fats badgering an opponent than watching Willie Mosconi run 125 balls of straight pool. Nothing much has changed I guess. Thinking about this, I have always wished for pool to become a little more straight laced with less treachery but am starting to be swayed to the dark side. Trying to improve pool's image has done absolutely no good for the last 40 years so why not just let pool get down in the gutter and let the mud fly?

How about you?

JoeyA ink:

The great thing about pool is it covers all demographics. You will see a pool table in a 10 million dollar penthouse or in the sleaziest bars. People love it on every level. The problem with all these kinds of threads, "What is wrong with pool today" is they are always based on how can someone make a living at the game. The answer is, they can't. Pool is "Played" more then it is watched, even by the most fanatical players.

For the spectator pool is more of an exhibition sport, kind of like watching a rodeo for the average person. They will watch for a short time but have no real interest in who wins or loses, it is just interesting to watch for a short time. Pool also has no big plays as other sports do. There is no basket at the buzzer, home run with 2 out, or hail Mary pass. Pool is low key.

Pool is just not a spectator sport, period. Talk to Olympic athletes who can't make a nickel at what they have spent a life time pursuing. Pool is way ahead of most those sports. Try to make a living swimming or in archery.

 

[Johnnyt]

Hopefully the new leaders that take office reverse the no gambling on the Internet. Then with a website with live stream and an odds board, maybe, just maybe pool has a shot at growing and more money payed to the players. Let's say $100,000 is bet on the tournament, give 1% in added purse money. I don't know what % of profit the house would get from a 100 grand to make this doable. Maybe some of you Vegas players can chime in on that. Wouldn't it be cool for us railbirds to be able to watch and bet on action games and tournaments? Me thinks a lot of gamblers in the mainstream will think so too. Have a rule that if any players are caught doing business they can not be bet on for life. Johnnyt

 

[JoeyA]

Gentleman or Scoundrel

Hopefully the new leaders that take office reverse the no gambling on the Internet. Then with a website with live stream and an odds board, maybe, just maybe pool has a shot at growing and more money payed to the players. Wouldn't it be cool for us railbirds to be able to watch and bet on action games and tournaments? Me thinks a lot of gamblers in the mainstream will think so too. Johnnyt

Since we don't want our dollars leaving the country any faster than they are already flying out right now, maybe the new leaders might make the decision that only corporations owned by American citizens can offer Internet Gambling. That way, the government could be guaranteed their vigorish and that's what it really is all about.

I've read all of your great "thinking responses" and everyone has made valid points.

The one point that I agree with that reverberates in my head over and over is that the young people have to be exposed to pool at an early age for it to be successful. I also think that we can live with the duality of pool being a gentleman's game and a scoundrel's game. Successful Pool players with their supple and surplus income wouldn't necessarily have to train dogs to kill one another for personal entertainment.

JoeyA (probably is a little bit of both)

 

[PKM]

The great thing about pool is it covers all demographics. You will see a pool table in a 10 million dollar penthouse or in the sleaziest bars. People love it on every level. The problem with all these kinds of threads, "What is wrong with pool today" is they are always based on how can someone make a living at the game. The answer is, they can't. Pool is "Played" more then it is watched, even by the most fanatical players.

For the spectator pool is more of an exhibition sport, kind of like watching a rodeo for the average person. They will watch for a short time but have no real interest in who wins or loses, it is just interesting to watch for a short time. Pool also has no big plays as other sports do. There is no basket at the buzzer, home run with 2 out, or hail Mary pass. Pool is low key.

Pool is just not a spectator sport, period. Talk to Olympic athletes who can't make a nickel at what they have spent a life time pursuing. Pool is way ahead of most those sports. Try to make a living swimming or in archery.

Good points, I think you nailed it there.

 

[Johnnyt]

Since we don't want our dollars leaving the country any faster than they are already flying out right now, maybe the new leaders might make the decision that only corporations owned by American citizens can offer Internet Gambling. That way, the government could be guaranteed their vigorish and that's what it really is all about.

I've read all of your great "thinking responses" and everyone has made valid points.

The one point that I agree with that reverberates in my head over and over is that the young people have to be exposed to pool at an early age for it to be successful. I also think that we can live with the duality of pool being a gentleman's game and a scoundrel's game. Successful Pool players with their supple and surplus income wouldn't necessarily have to train dogs to kill one another for personal entertainment.

JoeyA (probably is a little bit of both)

I agree Joey, keep the profit in the good ol USA. Here come the flames. Let me get my fire suit on quick. Johnnyt